It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Eternally Grateful]

You are reacting to the message because it exposes your theology and you have no rebuttal. You cannot even be straight. Are you ashamed of your beliefs? That might explain your ad hominem.

No. It does not expose my theology

it exposes your pride.

I am trying to get you to think logically and to calm down. and as we see. you are still at it. and will not relent from your silly attacks on your brothers i,and sisters in christ.

For the attention of the reader I will reveal what you hold:

Oh this should be good.. You know what I hold.. Hold on while I stop laughing, then I will read it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For the attention of the reader I will reveal what you hold:

ok, I just read it. and stopped laughing. now time to get serious

prove anything I said in those posts wrong.

 

[WPM]

I am just stating what I see

You one argument was that Dan 9 does not mention the church. and that proves premill is wrong.

This is a false application not only of daniel 9. but the argument itself. and does not address what the person who uses it (I will be honest. I have never heard a pre-trib person use this to prove his or her point)

so this tells me you are drawing at straws. and do not want to really discuss what others believe, but just attack them.

Ok. LOL. So, where are your proof texts?

 

[WPM]

No. It does not expose my theology

it exposes your pride.

I am trying to get you to think logically and to calm down. and as we see. you are still at it. and will not relent from your silly attacks on your brothers i,and sisters in christ.

You are describing yourself. As I said in the Op, ad hominem and avoidance is the Pretribbers MO.

 

[WPM]

ok, I just read it. and stopped laughing. now time to get serious

prove anything I said in those posts wrong.

Exactly. I would laugh at that as well. It is extra-biblical. That is why you cannot discuss hard Scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ok. LOL. So, what proof texts?

Dan 9? Your right, the church is not mentioned.

but that does not prove pre-trib is in error.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are describing yourself. As I said in the Op, ad hominem and avoidance is the Pretribbers MO.

1. I am not a pretribber.. so you again just exposed yourself..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly. I would laugh at that as well. It is extra-biblical. That is why you cannot discuss hard Scripture.

so this is your proof that I was wrong?

lol.. whatever dude, again you just exposed yourself.

 

[WPM]

1. I am not a pretribber.. so you again just exposed yourself..

You confess:

I am a futurist

I lean pre-trib

as a dispensationalist all my life

which makes me a pre-millenial

 

[Rockerduck]

Look at the World guys. Outside the USA. In areas where prophesy was written is a mess. I believe we are passed the pre and mid tribulation. Jacob's trouble is here in the present.

 

[WPM]

Dan 9? Your right, the church is not mentioned.

but that does not prove pre-trib is in error.

But you have to prove it is future and unfulfilled and relates to a Pretrib position.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

 

[IndianaRob]

Look at the World guys. Outside the USA. In areas where prophesy was written is a mess. I believe we are passed the pre and mid tribulation. Jacob's trouble is here in the present.

No Jacobs trouble was when Jesus came and took the kingdom from the wicked Jews. Today’s events are more of a Noah’s flood event.

God is doing a great reset on this planet.

 

[Douggg]

Simple: the intra-Advent period (the last days) runs in between the first and second comings of Christ. When He returns it is the end. He rescues the righteous and destroys the wicked. God resurrects all and all are brought before the judgment bar of God to face their eternal reward. All sin and corruption, are eternally eliminated from the earth. The righteous inherit the new earth, the wicked, the demonic realm, death and Hades are banished to the Lake of Fire forever

You wrote my chart was distorted. So show your chart of the timing of the rapture.

On my chart, I show the rapture timing, relative to the other events of the time of the end. Below this one, my view, is a chart of the pre-trib rapture.

 

[WPM]

QUOTE;
"Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day."

Under this guidance we should never read romans because it was written to Romans.

So what "hour of temptation" were they experientially spared from?

 

[WPM]

in my studies. Post-trib is the most indefensible of all the pre-millenial views.

Lol. Do you think if you keep repeating this nonsense that it will somehow become a fact? All the time, you have zero evidence to bring to the table to support any of your false claims.

 

[WPM]

You wrote my chart was distorted. So show your chart of the timing of the rapture.

On my chart, I show the rapture timing, relative to the other events of the time of the end. Below this one, my view, is a chart of the pre-trib rapture.





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I don't interact with foolish man-made charts. I engage with Scripture. I would advise you to do the same. All the time, you have nothing to refute the Op.

Telling!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 10 virgins

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out” is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

In this parable, Jesus rejects the unprepared virgins. In Pretrib theology it does not have Jesus finally shutting the door (as He taught), but, rather, leaving it ajar. It gives the foolish virgins a second chance to make it, despite them being unprepared and despite them having rejected numerous opportunities before He comes they miss the boat.

This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming. It is nothing to do with percentages. Many parables are like that. It is to do with believers and unbelievers. It is describing those that are ready and those that are not. The enlightened will get the thrust. Whether theologians want to apply this to the visible church or to all mankind makes little difference. That is not worth fighting over. It is the overall trust that Christ is pressing up - be prepared.

Obviously, those left behind are unbelievers! Whether they are religious unbelievers, false professors within the visible church, or out-and-out heathens, is secondary. They simply do not belong to Jesus. They are lost. They miss the boat! Their day of opportunity is gone. All they have now is destruction. They are damned and doomed to a lost eternity.

I'd like to expand on what you said here by showing exactly what scripture indicates will happen to those, like the foolish virgins, who say "Lord, Lord, open to us" when Jesus comes again. Pretribbers claim that such people will be allowed to continue living during a time of tribulation after that. At least one pretribber claims that these people like the foolish virgins are saved despite Jesus telling them He doesn't know them. What? Jesus would never say that to a saved person.

So, what will happen to people like the foolish virgins who say "Lord, Lord, open to us" when He comes?

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Again, we can see here that Jesus will tell them that He doesn't know them.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Here again, as in the parable of the ten virgins, we can see that Jesus, when He returns, will tell people who say "Lord, Lord, open to us" that He doesn't know them. But, now we have an added detail here showing what will happen to them at that point that isn't shown in the parable. Those people will be "thrust out" to where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" at that point. That doesn't seem like they are given another chance as pretribs claim.

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus will return at the end of the age and He said that at the end of the age is when unbelievers will be cast into the fire "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Clearly, people like the foolish virgins will not be given another chance when He returns but instead will be condemned to the lake of fire! You know pretrib is a horrible doctrine when it teaches that people will get another chance to repent when Jesus comes when in reality there time will have run out at that point and they will not get any more chances.

If Jesus doesn't know someone when He comes, including those who say "Lord, Lord, open to us", this is what will happen to them:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

He will not be giving them another chance, He will be taking vengeance on them and they will be separated from His presence forever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All noise, and no substance. Can you address the Op?

What a surprise. Another thread about pretrib results in another thread where pretribs refuse to exegete scripture and back up their claims with scripture. Who could have predicted this?

 

[rwb]

This is wrong.

All of the virgins are believers that’s why they’re identified as VIRGINS. They don’t have a HUSBAND and are legally allowed to marry Christ.

Unbelievers are not virgins because they’re already married and therefore NOT legally allowed to marry Christ.

How can the five foolish be considered among the wise who are saved since they took no oil in their lamps?

 

[IndianaRob]

I'd like to expand on what you said here by showing exactly what scripture indicates will happen to those, like the foolish virgins, who say "Lord, Lord, open to us" when Jesus comes again. Pretribbers claim that such people will be allowed to continue living during a time of tribulation after that. At least one pretribber claims that these people like the foolish virgins are saved despite Jesus telling them He doesn't know them. What? Jesus would never say that to a saved person.

So, what will happen to people like the foolish virgins who say "Lord, Lord, open to us" when He comes?

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Again, we can see here that Jesus will tell them that He doesn't know them.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Here again, as in the parable of the ten virgins, we can see that Jesus, when He returns, will tell people who say "Lord, Lord, open to us" that He doesn't know them. But, now we have an added detail here showing what will happen to them at that point that isn't shown in the parable. Those people will be "thrust out" to where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" at that point. That doesn't seem like they are given another chance as pretribs claim.

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus will return at the end of the age and He said that at the end of the age is when unbelievers will be cast into the fire "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Clearly, people like the foolish virgins will not be given another chance when He returns but instead will be condemned to the lake of fire! You know pretrib is a horrible doctrine when it teaches that people will get another chance to repent when Jesus comes when in reality there time will have run out at that point and they will not get any more chances.

If Jesus doesn't know someone when He comes, including those who say "Lord, Lord, open to us", this is what will happen to them:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

He will not be giving them another chance, He will be taking vengeance on them and they will be separated from His presence forever.

The kingdom of heaven in the parable of the 10 virgins is the same kingdom of heaven in all the passages below. The kingdom of heaven in all of those parables has nothing to do with a future second coming of Christ.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:


Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Why is there any discussion about a rapture, tribulation or future second coming of Jesus when analyzing the parable of the 10 virgins?