Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[GodsGrace]

That, to me, is no wonder.

Witness after witness shows us we are blind so I will only post this one.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) UNTO THIS DAY. (Rom 11:7-8)

I’m sure you find that offensive, but before you accuse me of being arrogant or claiming that I’m one of God’s Elect, let me assure you I am blind as well. And what I have been shown comes from Christ not man’s wisdom. I am thankful for all that I have been shown which is far, far from everything.

I know what I know only because God want’s me to know it.

And when I’m lost and something makes no sense to me I pray for that knowledge and do as instructed; I search out the scriptures:

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Prov 25:2)

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)

And just because a person searches, doesn’t mean the answer will come right away. It might, but it may just as well take days, months or even years before the truth is shown.

Does searching the scripture mean we don’t fellowship? Of course not; that is, for the most part, how we are taught which may seem like I’m contradicting myself when I say do not put my trust in man or theologians. But I’m not.

Christ teaches Christ.

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19:10) Second witness see Rev 22:9

Is Christ in John? Yes.

Is Christ in John’s fellowservant? Of course.

Again, Christ teaches Christ.

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Rom 12:5) Second witness see 1 Cor 12:12

Third witness:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)

Cont. in the next post.

It's nice that God wants YOU to believe something different from what He wants every other Christian to believe.
I won't be convincing you of changing any of your beliefs, but I'll also read you next post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Continuing from post 419

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)

We can all read scripture, and we can all offer opinions on what it means, but unless Christ heals our blindness we will remain lost:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15) Second Witness see John 12:40

It is God who gives us understanding, it doesn’t come by free will and it’s not taught by man it comes from above:

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do NOTHING. (John 15:5)

Jesus Christ is the Word of God see John 1:1

Second witness:

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

And Jesus Christ is he “which is, and which was, and which is to come;”

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; (Rev 1:4)

Second witness:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

Third witness:

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Rev 4:8)

As to your statement:


What I posted were two, witnesses to the condition, the state, of God’s church:

Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

But they set their abominations in the house, WHICH IS CALLED BY MY NAME, to defile it. (Jeremiah 32:32-34)

Second witness:

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments OF MEN. (Mat 15:8-9)

And though these words applied to the church millennia ago through Christ “which was” -my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:31)

they still apply now to Christ “which is” -my words shall not pass away. (Luk 21:33)

and they will apply to Christ “which is to come.” -my words shall not pass away. (Mat 24:25)

the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I hope I've cleared up a few things for you GG.

I will respond to your second comment when I find the time

After that I will explain to you what I believe God's justice is.

You've written a lot....much more than I'm willing to handle all at once.

What you've gotten wrong is that I don't post MY OPINION...
I post scripture.
Whether or not you wish to read it and believe it is up to you.
JESUS spoke about hell,,,those up above are not my words but HIS.

Now,,,if you wish to take ONE IDEA, I'm willing to go through it....
But a bombardment of MANY ideas is not my idea of an ideal conversation.

 

[St. SteVen]

But a bombardment of MANY ideas is not my idea of an ideal conversation.

AMEN, sis.

[

 

[Beebster]

I do need to bring to attention the fact that you have NOT explained what it means for God to be just.

This is justice:

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)


Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. (Luke 3:5-6)

 

[St. SteVen]

This is justice:

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29)

Great post, thanks.
This really struck me. "the resurrection of damnation".
These that were "damned" are resurrected.

- Those who have done good =the resurrection of life
- Those who have done evil=the resurrection of damnation

Both are a resurrection. A resurrection is to be delivered from death.
So, what will become of these "evil" who are resurrected from the dead?

[

 

[Beebster]

Great post, thanks.
This really struck me. "the resurrection of damnation".
These that were "damned" are resurrected.

That is correct!

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona (St.SeVen): for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16:17)

- Those who have done good =the resurrection of life
- Those who have done evil=the resurrection of damnation

Both are a resurrection. A resurrection is to be delivered from death.
So, what will become of these "evil" who are resurrected from the dead?

[

God Bless!.

 

[Beebster]

Great post, thanks.
This really struck me. "the resurrection of damnation".
These that were "damned" are resurrected.

- Those who have done good =the resurrection of life
- Those who have done evil=the resurrection of damnation

Both are a resurrection. A resurrection is to be delivered from death.
So, what will become of these "evil" who are resurrected from the dead?

[

Resurrection is not a "What" it's a "Who"

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (John 11:25)

Once you see that you can put it all together:

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Isaiah 26:9)

 

[St. SteVen]

Resurrection is not a "What" it's a "Who"

Are you saying that you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead?

[ cc: @Beebster

 

[Beebster]

Are you saying that you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead?

[ cc: @Beebster

I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that Christ IS the Resurrection.
When the dead are TRULY resurrected they are CHRIST and Christ and his Father are one and we are to be one.
The Elect are the first to be resurrected and they become kings and priests over those who are damned. They must bring the damned to the knowledge of truth which will be their resurrection.
God the Father, Christ and his Christ or the Elect are THE LAKE OF FIRE.
Don't think of resurrection as awakening from physical death.
Awakening from death will happen and judgment will happen and there will be torment.
But when it's all said and done, all will be resurrected into Christ and then of course to the Father.
All in All.

 

[face2face]

Don't think of resurrection as awakening from physical death.

Ha thats precisely what it is - you should read 1 Corinthians 15 very carefully
F2F

 

[Beebster]

Ha thats precisely what it is - you should read 1 Corinthians 15 very carefully
F2F

You don't think our physical bodies rise from the dead do you? If so, maybe you need to reread 1 cor 15.

 

[face2face]

You don't think our physical bodies rise from the dead do you? If so, maybe you need to reread 1 cor 15.

You doubt God can rebuild and raise a body?

15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is useless; you are still in your sins. 1 Co 15:17.

15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 1 Co 15:53.

What is the "this" Paul is referring to?

Divine nature must be put on, added to the existing body - an external change to this present body

Careful reading always reveals truth

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

This is justice:

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)


Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. (Luke 3:5-6)

Beepster
I find it difficult to discuss with a member that has made up his own private religion....

However you have not explained what JUSTICE means.
It takes only one sentence.

You're also having a problem with the RESURRECTION.

I pray that one day you come to understand the faith you profess to belong to.

 

[Beebster]

You doubt God can rebuild and raise a body?

No, why would I doubt that? God raised Jesus.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

A little careful reading tells us the FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING, not even resurrection.

15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is useless; you are still in your sins. 1 Co 15:17.

Christ certainly was raised, but not back to his physical body.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. (1 Pet 3:18)

15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 1 Co 15:53.

What is the "this" Paul is referring to?

15:53 For this perishable body (physical body) must put on the imperishable (spiritual body), and this mortal body (physical body) must put on immortality (spiritual body). 1 Co 15:53.

Your body is going to do exactly what scripture tells us it's going to do:

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19)

ALL go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecc 3:20)

Even Jesus' physical body went to the dust.

Divine nature must be put on, added to the existing body - an external change to this present body

Careful reading always reveals truth

F2F

No your natural body is not going to be added to, it's going back to dust. Your soul will be roused, awakened, and you will be judged then resurrected to life. That life is Jesus Christ.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, YET now henceforth know we him no more. (2 Cor 5:16)

Christ is spirit; the only physical body he lives in is ours.

And had you done your own careful reading you would have noticed:

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? (1:Cor 15:35)

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (physical body); it is raised in incorruption (spiritual body):

It is sown in dishonour (physical body); it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness (physical body); it is raised in power (spiritual body):

44 It is sown a natural body (physical body); it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body (physical body), and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam (Humans) was made a living soul (with a physical body); the last Adam (Jesus Christ) was made a QUICKENING SPIRIT. (not back to flesh)

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL. (not natural again and then added to)

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (physical body); the second man is the Lord from heaven (spiritual body).

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy (physical body): and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly (spiritual body).

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (physical body), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (spiritual body).

50 Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD ; neither doth corruption (physical body) inherit incorruption. (1 Cor 42:50)

God is not some physical being living on some distant planet in outer space; God is spirit, which means Jesus Crist is also spirit. And we will all become one in that spiritual body.

 

[face2face]

No, why would I doubt that? God raised Jesus.

This is a good start for you!

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Correct its the Living Word which quickens!

A little careful reading tells us the FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING, not even resurrection.

Correct, which is why it must be changed!

Christ certainly was raised, but not back to his physical body.

What body then?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. (1 Pet 3:18)

15:53 For this perishable body (physical body) must put on the imperishable (spiritual body), and this mortal body (physical body) must put on immortality (spiritual body). 1 Co 15:53.

Correct, the perishing body must be changed and put on a spiritual body.

Your body is going to do exactly what scripture tells us it's going to do:

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19)

ALL go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecc 3:20)

Even Jesus' physical body went to the dust.

Youre funny - you have just quoted this:

15:53 For this perishable body (physical body) must put on the imperishable (spiritual body), and this mortal body (physical body) must put on immortality (spiritual body). 1 Co 15:53.

Only to contradict it.

This mortal physical body must put on immortality

It must be raised before immorality can be put on!

No your natural body is not going to be added to, it's going back to dust. Your soul will be roused, awakened, and you will be judged then resurrected to life. That life is Jesus Christ.

Back to dust, correct, then raised which is the point of the resurrection, if you didnt already know!

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, YET now henceforth know we him no more. (2 Cor 5:16)

Christ is spirit; the only physical body he lives in is ours.

And had you done your own careful reading you would have noticed:

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? (1:Cor 15:35)

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (physical body); it is raised in incorruption (spiritual body):

It is sown in dishonour (physical body); it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness (physical body); it is raised in power (spiritual body):

44 It is sown a natural body (physical body); it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body (physical body), and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam (Humans) was made a living soul (with a physical body); the last Adam (Jesus Christ) was made a QUICKENING SPIRIT. (not back to flesh)

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL. (not natural again and then added to)

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (physical body); the second man is the Lord from heaven (spiritual body).

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy (physical body): and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly (spiritual body).

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (physical body), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (spiritual body).

50 Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD ; neither doth corruption (physical body) inherit incorruption. (1 Cor 42:50)

God is not some physical being living on some distant planet in outer space; God is spirit, which means Jesus Crist is also spirit. And we will all become one in that spiritual body.

I'm curious why you keep proving the physical body must put on the spiritual body

Here let me help you with what Paul is teaching you.

When you got up this morning you "put on" clothes, well I hope you did! When the Saints are raised from the dead in their physical bodies they will be judged and when found worthy of immortality, it will be "put on" them or clothed with immortality.

Here is an example:

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29

As I type David does not exist only in that that God knows where David is both dead and buried - he is known of God.

David will be raised and be clothed with immortality, why?

to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Rom 2:7

So you are right, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God or stand in His presence...that's precisely why the old mortal body must be clothed with the new immortal body. Now what the body looks like I will not be dogmatic about! Christ had a physical body, his own changed in the twinkling of an eye, whatever it is, its Spirit manifested as a physical body.

Hope that helps

F2F

 

[Beebster]

F2F, you say out of one side of your mouth:

flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God or stand in His presence...

Yet, out of the other side you mouth you say:

This mortal physical body must put on immortality

That is theological double-talk.

What you are really saying is that “flesh and blood CAN inherit the Kingdom of God or stand in His presence.”

1 Cor 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL. (not natural again and then added to)

You would have us believe something like this:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is NATURAL AGAIN and then THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL.

Your doctrine holds no truth. Flesh is too be destroyed; that flesh is your carnal mind and your physical body. Until that happens you ARE NOT RESURRECTED.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Pet 3:18)

The rising of a dead person's physical body is not resurrection; Jesus Christ is the Resurrection:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (John 11:25)

 

[face2face]

F2F, you say out of one side of your mouth:

Yet, out of the other side you mouth you say:

That is theological double-talk.

What you are really saying is that “flesh and blood CAN inherit the Kingdom of God or stand in His presence.”

I think you are missing the point Paul is making Beebster

We all know flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom which is the very point Paul is making about putting on divine nature.

You are not making you point clear enough or supporting it with Pauls teaching.

Talk to what it mean to "put on" divine nature - where is it being placed?

1 Cor 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL. (not natural again and then added to)

Correct, the natural body must put on the spiritual

Why do you keep proving what is true while denying it?

How can you do that?

You would have us believe something like this:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is NATURAL AGAIN and then THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL.

Out of interest do you believe people are raised immortal? Maybe this is where you are going astray? You are missing the judgement and going straight to the Glory.

The Word is clear, the raised mortals must have enternal life/nature put on them - a change in the twinkling of an eye - post judgement!

Your doctrine holds no truth. Flesh is too be destroyed; that flesh is your carnal mind and your physical body. Until that happens you ARE NOT RESURRECTED.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Pet 3:18)

Correct, the flesh must be quickened! you can't have the Spirit being quickened ha lol

The rising of a dead person's physical body is not resurrection; Jesus Christ is the Resurrection:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (John 11:25)

Yes, he is such and the quickening life will be as Paul said "put on" those who are raised mortal or alive mortal as his coming

All makes perfect logical sense.

Also, do you remember when I showed you the analogy of putting on clothing?

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Mortal flesh clothed with immortality (imperishable)

For we know that if our earthly house [mortal body] of this tabernacle were dissolved [in the dust], we have a building of [from] God [we are to receive a new body and a new habitation], an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens [enduring in the New Heavens]. 2 Corinthians 5:1-10

Logical is'nt it?

Maybe if you believe in the immortal soul you won't be able to reconcile these verses as this false teaching confuses the resurrection process.

As I've shown - man seek immortality he doesnt already have it!!!

F2F

 

[Beebster]

You are not making you point clear enough or supporting it with Pauls teaching.

Fair enough f2f, maybe I'm not being clear enough. Oddly enough, I think you and I agree on quite a few things so rather than reply to your whole post let's get the things we agree on out of the way.

Out of interest do you believe people are raised immortal?

No I do not.
What say you?

 

[Beebster]

Ok, by your thumbs up I'm guessing you agree.

We both believe that David is dead and in the grave to this day yes?

I do. What say you?

 

[face2face]

Ok, by your thumbs up I'm guessing you agree.

We both believe that David is dead and in the grave to this day yes?

I do. What say you?

As I said earlier, David exists only in the mind of God and is dust. When raised he will be subject to a judgement and then the change.

F2F