Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Yes, God does make it clear to us that we have been chosen because of the evidence in our lives, but we have nothing to be proud about, because his salvation is 100% by his grace.
IS THE REFORMED FAITH BIBLICAL?
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Why would God desire repentance from us if He's going to decide if we're saved or not?
Why require repentance from a creature that is UNABLE to repent (according to the reformed) due to TOTAL depravity?
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Yes, God never desires for people to sin, but he allows us to in order for us to humble ourselves before him acknowledging that his grace and love for us are very great.
But you didn't reply to Calvin's statement about having the rug pulled from under some...
How could a reformed person be sure he is saved ?
It seems to me he won't be until the end comes.
Exactly the same as for every other Christian, BTW.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Where I'm a little unsure of my own reasoning is that 2 Peter 3:9 uses βουλόμενός, the verb cognate of Boulē. Does that imply planning rather than desiring?
Many Calvinists insist that all the heinous evil in our world must have been meticulously “brought to pass” or “decreed” by God otherwise it would prove (1) God has no purpose for evil’s existence or (2) He is powerless to do anything about it.[1]
For instance, Calvinistic scholar, Matt Slick states,
“…if someone were robbed and beaten, and yet God had no say in the crime whatsoever (for it was a free, uninhibited action based upon the criminal’s free will), then the person robbed would not have only been unjustly treated, but the evil he endured would have had no point to it. It was just a spontaneous action from a criminal. God is sort of left helpless in the matter.” <link>
These Calvinists are committing the “false dilemma” fallacy by insisting that there are only two alternatives to the problem when other valid options are clearly available and not being offered for objective consideration.
Logical fallacies serve to confound an issue and make a false perspective appear to be valid. In this article we will debunk this fallacious argument and present a much more robust answer to the problem being presented.
First of all, let’s dispose of the second alternative presented by the Calvinist’s false dilemma, “God is powerless to do anything about moral evil.” We can all agree that God has the power to stop sin, just as He had the power to prevent it from ever entering into our world, so let’s just dismiss that as an option. We are not debating about what God COULD do, we are debating about what God is PLEASED to do. This is not about God’s abilities, its about His character.
We can affirm that “God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him,” (Ps. 115:3) while still holding on to the equally valid truth that, “the highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to mankind” (Ps. 115:16). This means it pleases God to give man a certain level of “libertarian freedom” or “dominion.” This is a biblical view of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. As A.W. Tozer rightly explains:
“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.” – A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God
One cannot presume that it did not please God to create libertarian free creatures, as do the Calvinists who present this false dilemma.
Now, let’s consider the Calvinist’s first alternative, which was, “God has no purpose for evil’s existence.” The shortsightedness of that statement is revealed by simply asking, “Did God have a good purpose in creating libertarian free creatures who have the ability to choose moral evil?”
Calvinists are failing to acknowledge the possibility that evil is a consequence of libertarian free will (the ability of morally accountable creatures to refrain or not refrain from a given moral action). The only way they can ignore this possibility is to deny God’s omnipotence by suggesting He is not powerful enough to have created libertarianly free creatures even if He was pleased to do so. Surely Calvinists do not want to suggest God is incapable of doing as He pleases.
Now, it must be noted that Non-Calvinists do believe that God does have a GOOD purpose in giving man the ability to make libertarianly free choices, even if those choices have an EVIL purpose. So, it is only in presuming that God did not purpose to create libertarianly free creatures that one is left with the dilemma of either (1) a Holy God purposing evil Himself or (2) purposeless evil.
A clear distinction must be made in the idea of God actively purposing evil and His actively using creaturely evil for His good purposes. The former impugns his Holiness while the latter highlights His redemptive sovereignty and ultimate glory as the Holy, perfect, sinless Creator.
Calvinism’s Greatest Fallacy
Many Calvinists insist that all the heinous evil in our world must have been meticulously “brought to pass” or “decreed” by God otherwise it would prove (1) God has n…
soteriology101.com
Maybe you want to check out this link-if not, leave it.
J.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Ok, well I can only speak for myself, God decided to birth my spirit into His, by his mercy and grace....
Whose to say people can’t choose to say no...I don’t believe they can resist the will of God in the end, if it’s His will that they become Born Again.
As if they say no , it’s probably because the timing isn’t right, not sure, just my take on it, not saying it’s right.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Always remember that the relationship between his will or plan and our will and plans is a MYSTERY. We are responsible to repent from our rebellion against him, whereas he has already decided to choose and enable us to grow in our repentance. It's a mystery, the solution to which has been held from us, because the Bible doesn't answer your question. It takes his gift of humility to admit that we can't figure it all out and to accept the mystery. God is God, but we're not.
I leave you to discuss this with the other member, but I just want to say that it's pretty clear to me that 2 Peter 3:9 is referring to desire.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Yes, Gods will according to “ His” plan..does that make sense.
By the way I have no doubt that God leads you on what you post, I’m just not at a place of understanding what is being said.that is all.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Wouldn't that make the will of humankind sovereign?
A good father doesn't let his children play in the freeway and then claim it was what they wanted. (shrug)
Reformed from what?
Don't we have to check all the TULIP boxes before you level that label at anyone?
If you claim that the will of humankind is superior to God's will,
then you making humankind sovereign.
I said God is sovereign and you labeled me as Reformed.
As I understand it, biblical predestination has nothing to do with our day to day actions.
But you have already redefined that with your unbiblical workarounds.
Since God is love, loving Him is irresistible, upon meeting Him.
(I suppose you'll claim I'm Reformed again because I used the word "irresistible")
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Wouldn't that make the will of humankind sovereign?
A good father doesn't let his children play in the freeway and then claim it was what they wanted. (shrug)
LOL
Reformed from what?
Don't we have to check all the TULIP boxes before you level that label at anyone?
Right. That's what I said.
If you claim that the will of humankind is superior to God's will,
then you making humankind sovereign.
You have failed to make how God rules clear. IMO
I said God is sovereign and you labeled me as Reformed.
Yes, he leaves decisions to us, with consequences.
As I understand it, biblical predestination has nothing to do with our day to day actions.
But you have already redefined that with your unbiblical workarounds.
Of course.
Anyone who claims to hate God hasn't met Him yet.
Since God is love, loving Him is irresistible, upon meeting Him.
(I suppose you'll claim I'm Reformed again because I used the word "irresistible")
[
Everything can't be a mystery Bruce.
I don't have to be a proud, arrogant human in order to understand what God wants from me.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Technically, Arminians also understand that it is God who decides who is saved or not. The difference is that Arminians believe that God's decision is conditional based on faith.
The above is confusing me.
You're not making your position clear so it's difficult to reply to it.
Have to leave for a while...
Later...
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I don’t understand what you mean by, God wants everyone to be saved....how can they be saved, what must happen before they are saved?
If one is saved, then they must be Born Again.
Of course.
It's UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION that changes everything.
All christians believe in CONDITIONAL ELECTION.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord Κύριος vvv οὐ is not slow [to fulfill] βραδύνει [His] τῆς promise ἐπαγγελίας, as ὥς some τινες understand ἡγοῦνται, slowness, βραδύτητα but ἀλλὰ is patient μακροθυμεῖ with εἰς you, ὑμᾶς, not μὴ wanting βουλόμενός anyone τινας to perish, ἀπολέσθαι but ἀλλὰ everyone πάντας to come χωρῆσαι. to εἰς repentance. μετάνοιαν
Not wishing (mē boulomenos). Present middle participle of boulomai. Some will perish (2Pe_3:7), but that is not God’s desire. Any (tinas). Rather than “some” (tines) above. Accusative with the infinitive apolesthai (second aorist middle of apollumi. God wishes “all” (pantas) to come (chōrēsai first aorist active infinitive of chōreō, old verb, to make room). See Act_17:30; Rom_11:32; 1Ti_2:4; Heb_2:9 for God’s provision of grace for all who will repent.
Robertson.
βουλόμενός
Transliteration: boulomenos
Morphology: V-PPM/P-NMS
Verb - Present Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's no.: G1014 (βούλομαι)
Meaning: To will, intend, desire, wish.
Desire @Lambano -it's not YHVH' desire to any should perish and I outright reject Calvinism.
But I don't believe in universalism either-that pantas will be saved. In the same chapter-
2Pe 3:6 by means of which things the world that existed at that time was destroyed by [*Here “by ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“being inundated”) which is understood as means] being inundated with water.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
Consistency and context is Imperative.
J.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
From post #215
You're so busy trying to pigeon-hole me that you can't fathom what I am saying.
In response to the topic title question:
That doesn't mean that I agree with it, nor do I agree with you.
Does that help? - LOL
[
Where I am coming from is baffling to you.
You're so busy trying to pigeon-hole me that you can't fathom what I am saying.
In response to the topic title question:
IS THE REFORMED FAITH BIBLICAL?
Yes it is, most definitely.That doesn't mean that I agree with it, nor do I agree with you.
Does that help? - LOL
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
What I'm trying to do is figure out how I can communicate better, using words whose meaning we both agree on.
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