IS THE REFORMED FAITH BIBLICAL?

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
It's God's will that none should be destroyed... but that all should come to repentance.

Please show me where God says his will that none shall be destroyed?

Post #162

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[GodsGrace]

LOL
That preposterous!

Why don't you understand what the word "biblical" means?


You need more? Okay.


1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

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Why is it preposterous for me to state that a belief is unbiblical?

Are we Christians allowed to read through the NT and just make up whatever doctrine we FEEL to be true with some verse for support?
Do you realize that his means that THERE IS NO TRUTH?

You've posted some nice verses, but what they have to do with this is not apparent to me, unless you care to explain a few.

Let's take a test:

Do you believe in purgatory?
Why not?
I have verses to prove it exists:

Matthew 13:24-30

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Malachai 3:2-4

Philippians 1:6


So, is purgatory biblical?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

What does saved mean to you?

It's what God wants. Not just his will.

St. SteVen said:
1 Peter 5:2
Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—
not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be;
not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;

Not understanding this scripture..not yet anyway.

Does it mean being a teacher?

I’m not a teacher.

You have missed the point. It is what God wants, not just his will.

You challenged us earlier (thank you) to show you that God wants anything.

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[GodsGrace]

Sorry GodsGrace...free will to choose what?

Calvinists/Reformed believe we have no free will and thus cannot choose.
Choose what you ask....
The free will to choose if we DESIRE to be saved by God.
The free will to choose whether or not we want to sin when confronted with the choice to sin or not to sin.
The free will to make any moral decision....

God gave us the free will to accept His invitation to be saved.
God gave us the free will to decide to not sin....
and to follow His rules.

Do you mean after we are saved we have the free will to say no to God and go our own way?

Free will after being born again continues....
it never goes away.

 

[RedFan]

I'm sensing that this debate is driving a wedge between what God wills and what God wants. It seems to me that the first order of business is figuring out whether everything that God wills comes to pass.

I've been praying the Lord's Prayer for 60 years, saying “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven,” but when I do, I often think to myself, is God’s will not always done? Job 42:2 notes, “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.” Doesn’t that
make it pointless to pray that God’s will be done? Who can resist it?

 

[St. SteVen]

Why is it preposterous for me to state that a belief is unbiblical?

Every Christian doctrine is based on the Bible, thus making them biblical.

Are we Christians allowed to read through the NT and just make up whatever doctrine we FEEL to be true with some verse for support?
Do you realize that his means that THERE IS NO TRUTH?

Many have done EXACTLY that.
They say that God gave them their beliefs. (played the "God card" in the hope of ending the discussion)

Let's take a test:

Do you believe in purgatory?
Why not?
I have verses to prove it exists:

Matthew 13:24-30

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Malachai 3:2-4

Philippians 1:6


So, is purgatory biblical?

You just posted a bunch of scripture references to support Purgatory. (I didn't look any of them up)
It would be intellectually dishonest to say it is unbiblical. You provided the scriptures. (from the Bible, I assume)
How could Purgatory NOT be a biblical doctrine if you proved it from the Bible?
In what way would that be different from your own beliefs?

It seems that your test to gauge whether something is biblical is based solely on whether you accept it or not.
Nothing to do with whether it is biblical, or not.

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[GodsGrace]

During 27 years of preaching twice a Sunday, I offered the gospel to everyone, but I left in God's hands how he was going to use those words. By the way, I'm Reformed because that set of beliefs is biblical.

If it were biblical ALL Christians would accept reformed theology.
Truth is, that it's so far from God's nature that it's not acceptable....
God cannot go against His own nature.

There is NO USE to explain the gospel to anyone
IF
they have no free will to choose what the gospel teaches and to accept what it teaches.

There is NO USE to explain the gospel to anyone
IF
God will be the ultimate cause of their decision to obey the gospel message.

God is not a God of confusion....and calvinism is full of confusion.

Maybe you could explain HOW a person becomes saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

we obviously don't believe in the same God, so we're not going to agree on anything. You can't see yourself contradicting yourself at every turn, that doesn't give me any hope of any fellowship with you as we have nothing in common.

You believe that a dead person has free will but my bible tells me that no dead man has any free will, so were diametrically opposed on this and every other point you tried to make.

God electing His people before the foundation of the world says nothing about "HOW" He chose me. It just sates that He did, so you're dead wrong again. You claim God lied when He said He wrote the name of every one of His elect in His book. So that shows what you think of the true God.

The true God of the bible never made any plans, that's something foolish men do. God just does whatever He wants to do, so it's foolish to suggest that God makes plans and then prays that they would work out, that's what a weak and pathetic god does, not the Almighty God.

You make God a liar by saying that "anyone can come to the Lord and be saved", but God said "there are none who seek after Me, all have turned each to his own way". So again I have to reject your theology as false and follow what God said and not your false private opinion.

You falsely claim that people are saved by their faith, but God is against your private opinion here as well. Because His Word states that salvation is of the Lord, and that His people are saved by "RACE" which is a gift, through "FAITH" which is also a gift. So I have just exposed another one of your false claims, God said Faith is a gift but you say "no Lord, I conjured up my own faith, so I reject your gift of faith because I conjured up my own". Can you see how pathetic your view is.

You falsely claim that the "Elect of God" are only the Apostles, that exposes your heresy again because Jesus said "all that the Father has given to Me shall come to Me and I shall lose none. My father who gave them to Me is greater than anyone, and nobody can snatch them out of My Fathers Hand".
But there are hundreds more verses confirming that only those who God elected to save before the foundation of the world will be saved and nobody else.

I can see that you have been indoctrinated by the man centered works based Arminian theology and I don't expect you to embrace the Orthodox bible interpretation, so all I can do is pray for you.

I don't see any scripture above.
When a person can't defend their position, they resort to personal insults.

The person that has been indoctrinated by men is you dear sir.
MEN have made up the doctrines of the reformed.

They do NOT go back to the time of Jesus who taught that we can be saved by believing in Him....
Believe means to trust, to follow, to learn.

This is my last reply to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand what you are saying and agree....when it came to my spirit birth, I received him because he had made my heart “ ready” ( softened )to receive him.there was NO resistance from me..it was all done according to his will ,purpose and plan.

I understand what you are saying though and agree....we can say NO!...if it’s his will, he will get them in the end, he’s at work in their hearts/ spirit...softening it , to receive him..that’s my belief...mind Blowing.

OK
The above is correct if we can agree that God wants EVERYONE to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:1-7
1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Paul is telling Timothy, a new preacher/teaacher, to pray for everyone - even all Kings so that the people may lead a tranquil life.
Verse 4 Paul tells Timothy that God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul is the teacher of the Gentiles - those who were not Jewish - because God, through the Apostles, appointed Paul for the Gentiles and Peter for the Jews.

So God softens the heart of all men...He gives to all an amount of grace sufficient to know Him.
But then it's up to us to decide whether or not we want to follow Him...it's our CHOICE.
You decided to follow God....not all do. Some refuse God and just want to live their own way.

 

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

It's what God wants. Not just his will.

St. SteVen said:
1 Peter 5:2
Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—
not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be;
not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;

You have missed the point. It is what God wants, not just his will.

You challenged us earlier (thank you) to show you that God wants anything.

[

God desires.
God wills.

Not everything that God desires will come to pass precisely because man has free will.


The question at hand is:
Does God will/decree everything that happens?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sensing that this debate is driving a wedge between what God wills and what God wants. It seems to me that the first order of business is figuring out whether everything that God wills comes to pass.

I've been praying the Lord's Prayer for 60 years, saying “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven,” but when I do, I often think to myself, is God’s will not always done? Job 42:2 notes, “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.” Doesn’t that
make it pointless to pray that God’s will be done? Who can resist it?

See my post 190 just above.

To answer your question:
YES everything that God WILLS will come to pass.
If God WILLS something it's going to happen.

In the Lord's Prayer we pray for God's will to be done here on earth...
God's will is done in heaven:
Think of heaven....this is how God would want earth to be too.

But we both know it won't be like this.
Jesus prayed in the Garden that the Father's will be done...
the Father's will was that Jesus should go to the cross.

God can impose His will on mankind at any moment, and has in some circumstances...
the question is: Does God impose His will on man in every instance and at every moment?

Does man have free will or not?
Does God decree every little thing that happens on earth?
This is what the reformed/calvinists believe.

 

[St. SteVen]

The question at hand is:
Does God will/decree everything that happens?

That's what it means to be a sovereign God. The buck stops with Him.
He is ultimately responsible for everything, either by choice or by allowing it.

Why is there evil in the world? Because God allows it.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Not everything that God desires will come to pass precisely because man has free will.

Wouldn't that make the will of humankind sovereign?

A good father doesn't let his children play in the freeway and then claim it was what they wanted. (shrug)

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[GodsGrace]

LOL
That preposterous!

Why don't you understand what the word "biblical" means?

I see.
So if you could post some verses from the bible....
that means THE CONCEPT is biblical?

What you draw from verse must be biblical...
not the verses themselves....

In your idea, anyone could ready some verses and MAKE UP CHRISTIANITY.

St. SteVen
Christianity was already invented 2,000 years ago.

It was changed in some way at the reformation...
some of these changes were necessary and some have caused confusion....

But you cannot change Christianity...
this is what something being biblical means.

You can believe whatever you want to...
but that does not make it BIBLICAL.

Biblical means: BASED ON THE BIBLE....
The DOCTRINE must be based on the bible.

Of course, the verses you post come from the bible,
where are they supposed to come from?

 

[GodsGrace]

Where? Post # please, thanks.
I thought you didn't want to discuss UR.

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Almost missed this.
I could discuss whatever you want, but not here.
I understand how a person could believe in annihilism...total destruction for the lost.
But not in universalism...however, it's not a subject for here.

See posts 132 and 134 where I responded to your verses.

 

[GodsGrace]

Every Christian doctrine is based on the Bible, thus making them biblical.


Many have done EXACTLY that.
They say that God gave them their beliefs. (played the "God card" in the hope of ending the discussion)


You just posted a bunch of scripture references to support Purgatory. (I didn't look any of them up)
It would be intellectually dishonest to say it is unbiblical. You provided the scriptures. (from the Bible, I assume)
How could Purgatory NOT be a biblical doctrine if you proved it from the Bible?
In what way would that be different from your own beliefs?

It seems that your test to gauge whether something is biblical is based solely on whether you accept it or not.
Nothing to do with whether it is biblical, or not.

[

And herein is the problem SS.

You stated that purgatory COULD BE biblical because I stated some verses from the bible.
So I could pretty much state anything from the bible....
You've come to have your beliefs based on the bible.
Does this make them Chrsitian doctrine?
No.

Christianity is something specific and should not be played around with.
Purgatory is not biblical.
If it is, then Jesus death was not sufficient to cover our sins.
And yet I posted verses that seem to prove that purgatory exists.

You see, it's a problem that should not exist.
Jews know what they believe.
Muslims know what they believe.

Why don't we Christians know what we believe?

 

[GodsGrace]

That's what it means to be a sovereign God. The buck stops with Him.
He is ultimately responsible for everything, either by choice or by allowing it.

Why is there evil in the world? Because God allows it.

[

Is there a difference between God ALLOWING something
and God decreeing something?

 

[GodsGrace]

Wouldn't that make the will of humankind sovereign?

A good father doesn't let his children play in the freeway and then claim it was what they wanted. (shrug)

[

You're a reformed universalist.
Interesting.

Mankind is not sovereign.
We don't rule...God rules.

God is the ruler...
HOW He rules is what we're discussing here.

Does He leave any decisions to us at all?
Or do we just do every day what He has already predestinated us to do from the beginning of time?

Wouldn't that make us, like, robots?
Would YOU want to be loved by a robot?
I certainly don't think so since you know what love is.

God IS LOVE.
I do believe He would want us to FREELY love Him...
this requires that we have the ability to freely love Him...
that's called FREE WILL.

 

[Johann]

Please show me where God says his will that none shall be destroyed?

2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

This verse explicitly states God's desire for all to come to repentance rather than perish.
2. Ezekiel 18:23 (NKJV)
"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God. "And not that he should turn from his ways and live?"

Here, God expresses His lack of desire for the death of the wicked, emphasizing His call for repentance.
3. Ezekiel 33:11 (NKJV)
"Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'"

This reinforces God's desire for repentance rather than destruction.
4. Isaiah 28:21-22 (NKJV)
"For the Lord will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be angry as in the Valley of Gibeon— that He may do His work, His awesome work, and bring to pass His act, His unusual act. Now therefore, do not be mockers, lest your bonds be made strong; for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a destruction determined even upon the whole earth."

While this passage speaks of destruction, it also reflects God's patience and desire for repentance.

J.

 

[Lambano]

It means to me that exactly what he says it means....if it’s his will that I die tonight ( heaven forbid) his will be done..that’s my belief.

So, to put it in words that I can understand, you see "God's will" as "God's plan" and not necessarily "God's desires"?