Is God Above His own Law?

[aspen]

Does God define His own morality through His actions or is He limited by His character and morality?

 

[KingJ]

God is true to Himself proven by the cross. He can't go against who He is. He sweat blood in anticipation of sin coming upon because He likes sin / wickedness? God hates sin / wickedness / evil plans / damning us for hell from birth. When we are honest with ourselves and grasp that we would NOT die like a lamb to the slaughter for an ANT, we will grasp that God is true to Himself at a level that we simply cannot comprehend.

 

[Madad21]

Also God himself can not break his own law which was also enforced by the cross, The only way God could save us was to pay the penalty of His own law and provide the sacrifice,

 

[Enquirer]

Does God define His own morality through His actions or is He limited by His character and morality?

I believe that God is limited by his own character from which his morality proceeds ... that's why James can say,

" ... the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change" James 1:17

Why is there no variation (NIV- change) ? ... because God abides by his own standards/law/morality.

And it's from this standpoint that God acts.

 

[Thunderkat]

God is true to Himself proven by the cross. He can't go against who He is. He sweat blood in anticipation of sin coming upon because He likes sin / wickedness? God hates sin / wickedness / evil plans / damning us for hell from birth. When we are honest with ourselves and grasp that we would NOT die like a lamb to the slaughter for an ANT, we will grasp that God is true to Himself at a level that we simply cannot comprehend.

Stand up and give glory to God!!! Amen!

 

[River Jordan]

The bigger question for me isn't whether God is above His law (I don't think He needs to be), but are we? If God says "Thou shalt not murder", but then commands someone to kill a baby, is the person now acting within the law? If so, doesn't that open the door to a scenario where, say, a person kills someone and as a defense says "God commanded me to do it"? What do we say then? Since we've already allowed for the possibility of God commanding someone to kill, how do we know he's not telling the truth?

 

[KingJ]

The bigger question for me isn't whether God is above His law (I don't think He needs to be), but are we? If God says "Thou shalt not murder", but then commands someone to kill a baby, is the person now acting within the law? If so, doesn't that open the door to a scenario where, say, a person kills someone and as a defense says "God commanded me to do it"? What do we say then? Since we've already allowed for the possibility of God commanding someone to kill, how do we know he's not telling the truth?

River you always talk out of context. Slavery and now murder of kids. Please learn to read full chapters.

 

[River Jordan]

As usual, KingJ dodges the point and goes straight for the personal attack.

 

[Madad21]

I cant believe this is even a question

Here I'll make it easy..John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

As usual, KingJ dodges the point and goes straight for the personal attack.

There was no personal attack in his post. Perhaps that's a problem for you, thinking people are attacking you every time they disagree with you.

 

[River Jordan]

TVoT, you always miss the point. Please learn to read full threads.

 

[HammerStone]

Does God define His own morality through His actions or is He limited by His character and morality?

Based upon passages like the (in)famous Malachi 3:6, God must both define morality and be subject to some limit, otherwise we end up with a Cartesian deceiver (demon) god who is a step away from being evil at any time. Much of this frankly gets beyond the gigabytes of data thought that we are able to sustain and devote to this topic, but impotence in the capacity to define morality would implicitly deny omnipotence when carried out to a logical conclusion. The other caveat we are working with is our term limited. God obviously is not limited by externalities, but rather He himself defines is the limit. This is why we would say, more or less, it would be out of character for God to be evil.

I would hearken to the passages in Zechariah 4:1-14 where, I believe, the Godhead is portrayed as a self-sufficient contraption for our model. If the oil there could be equated with the spirit and power of God, then it's self generating and abundant, implying an eternal supply. We lack a model or concept for this, because everything we know is tainted by fallen-ness.

 

[justaname]

Does God define His own morality through His actions or is He limited by His character and morality?

God is the embodiment of morality. All morality objectively emanates from Him. Thereby, it is His nature that dictates His actions...God cannot lie {Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2} because it would go against His nature. It follows then that God does not define His own morality, rather God defines all morality and is the measure. This is the standard by which we are judged; against the object moral standard of God. Hence this then presents the valid truth of our total depravity and the need of a Savior, for none can stand against this measure. None can compare to the glory of God. {Romans 3:23}

Speaking to the Euthyphro dilemma, this subject was considered false before it was even presented. (cf Amos, Hosea, Micah, and Isaiah; all predate Socrates)

Things are not good because God says so...that would be arbitrary. Things are good because they coincide with His nature and goodness. God's nature is the standard for value.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I agree. Since all goodness comes from God and all morality, we can only conclude that God is the standard of morality, that there is no higher standard by which he falls under scrutiny. It always amazes me how people will charge God with wrongdoing based on the very standard of morality that God authored. Where man is greatly deceived is believing that we generate goodness and morality, therefore we can sit in judgment of God. Without God, we are truly wretched, despicable, and reprobate beings.

 

[Guestman]

By right of his Creatorship, Jehovah God is justified in establishing moral boundaries or perimeters for us as his creation. The test with regard the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" in the garden of Eden was an example that God has the legal and proper right to lay down laws for us.(Gen 2:17) Though it was a simple test, it showed where both Adam and Eve's loyalty were.(Gen 3:1-6)


God has set out moral limits for our everlasting benefit. Isaiah 48 says: "This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One guiding you in the way you should walk. If only you would pay attention to my commandments ! Then your peace would become just like a river and your righteousness like the waves of the sea."(Isa 48:17, 18)


Having unlimited wisdom and knowledge, is not Jehovah God the One who can determine what is best for us. Isaiah 40 says: "Who has taken the measurements of the spirit of Jehovah, and who can instruct him as his adviser ? With whom did he consult to gain understanding, or who teaches him in the path of justice, or teaches him knowledge, or shows him the way of true understanding ?....To whom can you compare God ?"(Isa 40:13, 14, 18)


When we are not sure of something, do we not usually inquire from someone who is highly skilled, who knows their "business" if possible. Jehovah God is more than "highly skilled", for the apostle Paul wrote, quoting from Isaiah 40: "For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him ?” But we do have the mind of Christ."(1 Cor 2:16) We can learn what God requires of us, what his moral perimeters are by carefully examining Jesus words and works.(John 8:28)


God has laid down laws and principles for mankind, but only "few" righteous ones follow them.(Matt 7:13, 14) At 2 Chronicles 16, it says: "For the eyes of Jehovah are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."(2 Chron 16:9)


Though God has full right to establish moral boundaries for us as his creation, most have rejected them, making up their own sets of laws without regard for God's. Instead, these are under the manipulative influence of Satan the Devil and have formed their own sovereignties, their own political governmental arrangements.(Rev 12:9) There are now some 196 different nations around the earth, but many more political ideologies besides these that have divided mankind to its greatest extent in history.


Jeremiah wrote: "I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."(Jer 10:23) It is not possible for man to "direct his step" and be successful. Only our Maker, Jehovah God can guide us successfully.(Ps 119:105) Hence, Psalms 146 says: "Do not put your trust in princes nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.......Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper, whose hope is in Jehovah his God."(Ps 146:3, 5)


And at Jeremiah 2, Jehovah says: "Because my people have done two bad things: They have abandoned me, the source of living water, and dug for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that cannot hold water."(Jer 2:13) Abandoning Jehovah and his moral guidelines have resulted in the masses of mankind ' digging for themselves broken cistens that cannot hold (life-giving) water '. So we come full circle that only God has the right and can effectively provide rulership for mankind. Submitting to His rulership results "riches and glory and life."(Prov 22:4)

 

[aspen]

I tend to believe that perfect love is the soil for germinating morality. Since God is perfect love He is naturally perfectly moral. I believe we were created to be instruments of Gods perfect love or megaphones of His love. Unfortunately we broke.....the interesting thing is we like to attempt to fix ourselves by being moral without the foundation of Gods perfect love - which is like trying to tune a broken instrument.

We cannot know good from evil apart from God. Our only hope is to surrender to His love (justification) which produces clear notes and put it in practice (sanctification). Until we are perfected.

It is impossible for God to be less than His own perfection. This is why God cannot murder - and any example of humanity trying to justify killing or attributing killing to God is simply humanity trying to make sense of an evil act, but ultimately it ends up framing God.

There are examples of this throughout The Bible - and not just limited to murder. The stories are valuable because they communicate individuals process of discovering God through repeated failures. We shouldn't try to justify the evil actions simply because a writer attributes them to God. That is not the reason the stories are in the Bible.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I tend to believe that perfect love is the soil for germinating morality. Since God is perfect love He is naturally perfectly moral. I believe we were created to be instruments of Gods perfect love or megaphones of His love. Unfortunately we broke.....the interesting thing is we like to attempt to fix ourselves by being moral without the foundation of Gods perfect love - which is like trying to tune a broken instrument.

We cannot know good from evil apart from God. Our only hope is to surrender to His love (justification) which produces clear notes and put it in practice (sanctification). Until we are perfected.

It is impossible for God to be less than His own perfection. This is why God cannot murder - and any example of humanity trying to justify killing or attributing killing to God is simply humanity trying to make sense of an evil act, but ultimately it ends up framing God.

There are examples of this throughout The Bible - and not just limited to murder. The stories are valuable because they communicate individuals process of discovering God through repeated failures. We shouldn't try to justify the evil actions simply because a writer attributes them to God. That is not the reason the stories are in the Bible.

This was well said.

 

[KingJ]

" ... the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change" James 1:17

This verse is the nail on the head!

 

[tooldtocare]

From my point of view

God "is" the Law

(:-

 

[BlackManINC]

The law is not something that exists unto itself, God is not above or below his own law, because God is the embodiment of the law.