Is believing/faith a work ?

[Patrick1966]

Thoughts are not works but, as Jesus told us, thoughts can be pleasing or displeasing (sinful) to God.

 

[brightfame52]

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"received Him", this is in the active voice, so it is something the "receiver" does. "Believe in Him" is also active voice.

We believe, we receive, and God gives us new birth. That is the saying of Scripture.

Much love!

Again, I dont see anyone conditioning salvation on believing but you. May God be pleased to deliver you from this great error.

 

[marks]

Again, I dont see anyone conditioning salvation on believing but you. May God be pleased to deliver you from this great error.

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Received, believe, both are in the Active Voice, which means this is something that we, not God, something we ourselves do.

So there it is. Not me saying this, God is saying this. Not me. I'm just quoting the passage.

No need to argue over it . . . so I'll stop here.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

I said the salvation saves you, the works justify you.

Because you are saved, you want to be justified.

I didn't say "you have to do the works now", but at some point you will want to do the works.

For we are justified by faith . no man could be justifed by the law . Paul said that . We are justified , made righteous
BY CHRIST JESUS ALONE my friend . Now if folks say that and yet walk in darkness and love sin , THEY DONT KNOW HIM EITHER
its all lip service . BUT i tell us all we are JUSTIFIED by FAITH IN CHRIST from all things in the law by which you could not be justified .
Yes . WE need to dig down and TRUST SOLEY IN THE LORD , IN THE CHRIST OF GOD
and learn ALL , yes i said ALL , things HE DID TEACH . BE HEARERS and DOERS . for a hearer only HAS DECIEVED THEMSELVES .
BUT again , YE ARE JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST JESUS , LET THE KING BE PRAISED .

 

[brightfame52]

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Received, believe, both are in the Active Voice, which means this is something that we, not God, something we ourselves do.

So there it is. Not me saying this, God is saying this. Not me. I'm just quoting the passage.

No need to argue over it . . . so I'll stop here.

Much love!

Still dont see anyone making belief a condition for salvation but you. Neither Paul nor Jesus taught that, thats works

 

[brightfame52]

Thoughts are not works but, as Jesus told us, thoughts can be pleasing or displeasing (sinful) to God.

Thoughts are works. Why did Jesus say if a man looks upon a women with lust, he commits adultery ? Also He condemned evil thoughts Matt 15:19

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

[Patrick1966]

Thoughts are works. Why did Jesus say if a man looks upon a women with lust, he commits adultery ? Also He condemned evil thoughts Matt 15:19

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Yes, and that's why I said that thoughts can be sinful. I suspect that God does not judge a bad thought as harshly as actually acting upon that thought, but I have no way to know for sure.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, and that's why I said that thoughts can be sinful. I suspect that God does not judge a bad thought as harshly as actually acting upon that thought, but I have no way to know for sure.

Just like thoughts are works, the act of believing is a work, a heart and mind work, so if someone says God saved them because they believed, then they are advocating salvation by works, its that simple.

 

[Kermos]

Commands imply both ability and accountability. It would be nothing but evil and saditic on God's part to command of man something impossible then eternally condemned man for not doing the impossible. In the OT we have an example of an evil king called Pharaoh who took from the Israelites the materials required to make brick but no reduction in bricks made (Ex 5:15-16). God' character is not such as the evil Pharaoh. It is simply SENSELESS for God to command a person to do the impossible as it would be EQUALLY SENSLESS for an employer to require an employee to life a 8 ton truck using nothing but his own strength. The employer would be considered insane, sensless, evilto require such by men and so would God to command such SENSELESS things

If man has no free will then the only conclusion can be an evil, sadistic god.

Joshua 24:15 men do have the ability to choose God.

A Calvinist Profess Wayne Grudem wrote:
"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.)

The errors of Calvinism creates problems that do not even exist. If God caused, ordained a person to sin then God does have culpability in that person sinning. No way around that.

The Apostle Peter declared "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10), so your thoughts of "Commands imply both ability" are contrary to Apostolic testimony. See "a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear" with relation to the commandants such as "you shall not bear false witness".

Your opening sentence is error, so that sentence leavened your whole post (Galatians 5:7-9).

 

[Kermos]

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...the CONTEXT is Jesus speaking to His Apostles who He chose for that office, those men did not choose themselves to the office of an Apostle. It has nothing at all to do with how men are saved..nothing.

You hypothetical example proves nothing. Adults do have the ability and have learned right from wrong therefore have accountability to God, not infants (Isa 7:15-16).

Biblical example Matt 21:
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

The Son was commanded to go work in the vineyard, he was able to disobey that command. But then he was able to repent and obey that command. The command implies accountability for he had to repent for his disobedience to the command. The command implies ability for he was able to obey and go work in the vineyard.

Nowhere does the Bible teach man is boren with a totally depraved natute or a sin nature. For if such were true, then it would make God evil and sadistic in condemning man for how man is innately born. It would be insane, cruel, evil to command a person to walk who was born without legs, then condemned that person for not walking. Calvinism is pure insanity!!

After the people asked "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28) of Jesus, then the Lord dispels the notion that man manipulates faith/belief with His response of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Notice Jesus' removal of the work of men.

When you preach things like "The people asked what work is it that WE DO and not what work will God do for us. Jesus gave them a work to do: believe", then your heart (Matthew 15:16-19) adulterates the Word of God into "this is you working the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

In effect, you think "this is you controlling the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

To further paraphrase while maintaining your context, you promote "this is you controlling God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the thoughts of Ernest T. Bass' heart).

Your heart's treasure of "you controlling God" exalts yourself like the Most High. It is written "you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’" (Isaiah 14:13-14), and the passage is followed by the result of being thrust into the pit (Isaiah 14:15).

In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus says God controls man for the Lord's proclamation of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) uses intentional grammatical structure resulting in "you believe in Him whom He has sent" being the sentence subject, and "is the work of God" is the predicate, and the word "is" is the verb in "is the work of God", and the direct object of the sentence is "the work of God", so the spiritual food that the Son of Man gives (John 6:27) is that God controls the "you believing in Him whom He has sent" subject of the sentence (John 6:29).

Every single one of us Christians believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is fully the work of God (John 6:29), both the "you" and the "believing" in John 6:29 are caused/created/controlled by God, by God's grace for God's glory.

I proclaim to you that the Word of God says "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

NO SCRIPTURE STATES MAN HAS A FREE-WILL TO CHOOSE JESUS UNTO SALVATION, SO SELF-WILLED PERSONS REVILE KING JESUS (2 PETER 2:9-10) BY THEIR THOUGHTS THAT THEY CHOOSE JESUS DESPITE LORD JESUS SAYING "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) AND "COLOR=RED]I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD[/COLOR]" (JOHN 15:19, INCLUDES SALVATION) AND "WHAT I SAY TO YOU I SAY TO ALL" (MARK 13:37).

See Lord Jesus Christ's sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

 

[Gottservant]

Works of evil, works of good - how do you sit on the fence, without making a work of it?

 

[Patrick1966]

Just like thoughts are works, the act of believing is a work, a heart and mind work, so if someone says God saved them because they believed, then they are advocating salvation by works, its that simple.

Well, I believe that ALL will be saved in the end, whether they want saved or not. :)

We are ALL tempted on a variety of things. Is that a sin?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The Apostle Peter declared "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10), so your thoughts of "Commands imply both ability" are contrary to Apostolic testimony. See "a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear" with relation to the commandants such as "you shall not bear false witness".

Your opening sentence is error, so that sentence leavened your whole post (Galatians 5:7-9).

It would be unjust, evil, sadistic for God to command man to do something already knowing it would be impossible for man to obey that command then condemn man for eternity for being unable to do the impossible. It makes no sense in God even giving any commands knowing already obey it. Yet God's "commandments are not grievous" 1 Jn 5:3 which they would be if it were impossible for man to obey them. Therefore commands do imply both ability and accountability else God is totally senseless, unjust and sadistic. Employers give commands to employees to follow all the time and employees have both ability and accountability to complete those commanded tasks. There is accountability when employee shirks his/her responsiblity to follow the employers commands. If one can obey the commands given by other men, which man is able to, then man can obey commands given to him by God. If men can obey the eldership (Heb 13:17) then he is able to obey God's commands. If man can obey the laws of the land (Rom 13:1-4) then he is able to obey God's laws. If Saul could obey the voice of the people, (1 Sam 15:24) he had the ability to obey God's voice.

Judges 2:2
And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Israel disobeyed two articles of the covenant and God asks why they did not obey which makes no sense at all to ask such a question already knowing they could not obey or they were unable to obey unless God first gave them ability.

If men cannot obey God then;
1) man cannot love God Jn 14:15,21, no point in Jesus saying "IF" ye keep my commandments if man cannot possible do so Jn 15:10
2) man cannot love others 1 Jn 5:2
3) man cannot be blessed Rev 22:14
4) man cannot be saved if he cannot obey 2 Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9
5) man cannot fulfill his purpose or God's intent of placing man on earth if man cannot obey God, Eccl 12:13

If man is unable to obey God unless God first enables man, then God is showing respect of person's to those whom He enables versus those He does not yet God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34-35), God is culpable for those that are disobedient when He has no such culpability (Rom 2:6).

Therefore commands imply both ability and responsibility else God is corrupt, evil, sadistic, unjust, unloving. Calvinism claims God to be the latter. Therefore there is every justifiable, Biblical, sensible reason in the world for people to reject the tenets of Calvinism.
You have yet to prove commands imply total impossibility on the part of man to obey God. even in the face of Biblical proof throughout the BIble of God giving commands and men obeying them, Gen 6:22; Gen 26:5; Acts 26:19; etc





Lastly you cite Acts 15:10
"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

The CONTEXT is there were certain Jews in Jerusalem who were tying to bind the OT law upon Gentiles claiming Gentiles could not be saved if they did not keep the OT law, Acts 15:1. This 'yoke' refers to the OT law being put upon the Gentiles, this same yoke those Jews fathers could not bear themselves. That OT law was holy, just and good (Rom 7:12) yet to be justified by that law required the work of perfect, flawless law keeping which those Jewish father could not do, neither could those Gentiles for just one sin brought the curse of that law upon one (Gal 3:10-11) and the law showed no mercy to those who sinned against it, it just condemned. Since that OT law required sinless perfection in keeping it, Paul called it a 'yoke of bondage' (Gal 5:1). Yet God's commands are not grevious 1 Jn 5:1 for God does not require sinless perfection to justify a man but instead requires just a faithful obedience to His will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

After the people asked "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28) of Jesus, then the Lord dispels the notion that man manipulates faith/belief with His response of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Notice Jesus' removal of the work of men.

When you preach things like "The people asked what work is it that WE DO and not what work will God do for us. Jesus gave them a work to do: believe", then your heart (Matthew 15:16-19) adulterates the Word of God into "this is you working the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

In effect, you think "this is you controlling the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of Ernest T. Bass).

To further paraphrase while maintaining your context, you promote "this is you controlling God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the thoughts of Ernest T. Bass' heart).

Your heart's treasure of "you controlling God" exalts yourself like the Most High. It is written "you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’" (Isaiah 14:13-14), and the passage is followed by the result of being thrust into the pit (Isaiah 14:15).

In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus says God controls man for the Lord's proclamation of "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) uses intentional grammatical structure resulting in "you believe in Him whom He has sent" being the sentence subject, and "is the work of God" is the predicate, and the word "is" is the verb in "is the work of God", and the direct object of the sentence is "the work of God", so the spiritual food that the Son of Man gives (John 6:27) is that God controls the "you believing in Him whom He has sent" subject of the sentence (John 6:29).

Every single one of us Christians believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is fully the work of God (John 6:29), both the "you" and the "believing" in John 6:29 are caused/created/controlled by God, by God's grace for God's glory.

I proclaim to you that the Word of God says "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

NO SCRIPTURE STATES MAN HAS A FREE-WILL TO CHOOSE JESUS UNTO SALVATION, SO SELF-WILLED PERSONS REVILE KING JESUS (2 PETER 2:9-10) BY THEIR THOUGHTS THAT THEY CHOOSE JESUS DESPITE LORD JESUS SAYING "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) AND "COLOR=RED]I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD[/COLOR]" (JOHN 15:19, INCLUDES SALVATION) AND "WHAT I SAY TO YOU I SAY TO ALL" (MARK 13:37).

See Lord Jesus Christ's sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

I copied and pasted Jn 6:27-29 word for word from the BIble, you reject that word.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


The facts given from the above passage Calvinists ignore;

--Jesus made work necessary for them to have everlasting life, v27. All faith onlyists arguments die right here.

--hence the people ask what shall WE DO, that WE WORK the works of God. They obviously wanted to know what work was necessary that THEY do per v27 in order to have everlasting life that Jesus says He gives.

--Jesus did NOT say 'do no works lest ye attempt to merit the gift of everlasting life' instead Jesus gave them a work to do that they could have everlasting life per v27. Again, Jesus REQUIRED WORK on the part of MAN to have everlasting life in v27.

--the required WORK in order to have everlasting life per v27 is to believe, hence belief itself is a work. And Jesus in v29 said this is the work of God that YOU believe. Jesus clearly here gave the work of believing to those people to do...YOU believe, Jesus did not say God will do the work of beliving for you while you sit and do nothing.

I am citing the Bible here not myself as you fasely accuse. Simply because the context does not say what you wished it would does not make others wrong.


You continue to ignore the context of Jn 15:16 where Jesus was in the CONTEXT speaking to His Apostles that He chose to that office, those men did not choose to be in that office themselves. This context therefore has NOTHING to do with the salvation of men.

No verse says man lacks free will. Man is made in the image of God (1 Cor 11:7; James 3:9) and God has free will as does man (Joshua 24:15, Matt 23:37; Jn 7:17), God has the the ability to create as does man, God has the ability to reason as does man (Isa 1:18) man has a sense of judgment (Rom 2:14-15) as does God.....all traits man shares with God having been made in God's image/likeness.

Created in the Image of God

As a potter fashions clay into a vessel, the book of Genesis affirms that mankind was "created" in the very image of God. He is not the product of an ancient slime pit.

christiancourier.com

In What Sense is Humanity in the Image of God?

The Bible speaks of humankind as being in the "image" of God (Gen. 1:26). In what sense is the term, "image," employed in this text?

christiancourier.com

Again, if man has no free will then that makes God evil, sadistic, unjust, unloving, a respecter of persons and have culpability for the lost.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, I believe that ALL will be saved in the end, whether they want saved or not. :)

We are ALL tempted on a variety of things. Is that a sin?

More error

 

[Patrick1966]

More error

Do you believe that God permits some of his creation, made in his image, to be tortured forever?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Work can be a spiritual activity, believing by Grace is a mental activity but its grounded in having Spiritual life. So you are confused if you think work is confined to just mere physical activity. See God gives New Hearts and Minds guided by the Spirit so in order to act Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Not all activity is work. Don't confuse a thought with an act.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you believe that God permits some of his creation, made in his image, to be tortured forever?

Not talking about universalism friend, dont hijack this thread with that mess.

 

[brightfame52]

Not all activity is work. Don't confuse a thought with an act.

Yes it is, what scripture says not all activity is work ? Because as I have shown the word work ergon means:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
2. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Patrick1966]

More error

Do you believe that God permits some of his creation, made in his image, to be tortured forever?

Not talking about universalism friend, dont hijack this thread with that mess.

No problem. I won't engage you further. Take care.