Irrefutable biblical proof that death is not abolished at the second coming

[Randy Kluth]

No, we're good on the important things. Nothing wrong with disagreeing on matters that aren't clear doctrinally. I do have a different view, but I also respect your view.

I think I've held your view for a long time until for some reason it got changed. I'll try to clarify what these changes are and why I changed them. It's okay if you don't agree.

I think the spirit, soul, and body are, as you say, parts of the whole being. I got much of my view on the "soul" from Watchman Nee, who taught that the Scriptures viewed the soul of man as the invisible part of man that has mind, will, and emotions.

He wrote a long book called "The Spiritual Man" that treated these things, but he was only 25 years old at the time he wrote this. Still, it was a very good book.

It is very difficult to see the mind of the soul as distinct from the human brain. What would you "think" without a brain? And yet, we are depicted as a person even with the body dead and gone. If we are still a person without the brain, we must still have reason, and we must therefore think even without a brain.

I began to believe that we, as former pagans, were dead in our spirits because, quite frankly, that is what I was taught. Being alienated from Christ, and not knowing the "mind of Christ," I figured they were right--we had to be spiritually dead. (To be honest, I've never been truly a "pagan," but have lived like a pagan for awhile.)

But over time I realized that in the pagan world there is a conscience and a sense of God. Though they are not redeemed and regenerated, they are able to make use of God's power and Spirit to do certain good works. This may take place without their even being conscious of it. And in the Bible we see this as well, with certain pagans doing some good things.

I cannot say, then, that pagans have no spirit or even a dead spirit. We've all been sentenced to death, eventually, but we are not technically dead until our bodies leave our souls.

So I now see our spirit as the element that gives our bodies existence, whether it is regenerated or not. It is not dead--just limited without relying on Jesus regularly for our good works.

What is the value in looking at things this way? I don't know--it's just an interesting subject. Carry on.... ;)

I might add this.

Nee saw the functions of the spirit as communion, intuition, and conscience. These are elements that he might have agreed with you were dead before we came to know Christ.

I think that the spirit, in giving us life and animating our bodies, still functions even without fully resorting to God's Word and Spirit. As long as we live our spirits are alive--they are just not "alive" in the Spirit, so to speak.

Until our spirits submit to God's Word and Spirit we cannot do anything of lasting value in God's Kingdom. But we can do a certain amount of good when we even unconsciously cooperate with God's Word.

And so, I do see our spirits as less "dead" and more "limited in functionality" when we are pagans. The fact the Word of God can "awaken" our spirits indicate our spirits are still alive and capable of receive input from God.

The most important thing is not just enabling our spirits to respond to God's Spirit and Word. Even more important is that we *commit* to it by making a covenant relationship with God, accepting Him as Lord and Savior. In this way we commit to living in the light, and our spirits are fully regenerated, equipped to serve God at any notice. We don't just do good works regularly--we emit Christ and reveal Him in our lives. His character becomes our character...hopefully.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

NJ has no need of the sun but the sun (and moon) still exist plus the tree of life will bear a new fruit each month.

Then how do you interpret " all former things have passed away"
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Is. 65:17
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev. 21:4

Also 2 Peter 3:10 suggests the elements of the earth and entire universe dissolve ( are destroyed) in a fervent heat.

 

[ewq1938]

Then how do you interpret " all former things have passed away"
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Is. 65:17
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev. 21:4

It lists the former things as tears death, sorrow and crying.

Also 2 Peter 3:10 suggests the elements of the earth and entire universe dissolve ( are destroyed) in a fervent heat.

And Rev 21 suggests new heavens will exist. There is also scripture which says the Sun is eternal.

Psalms 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

1. His name shall endure for ever
2. his name shall be continued as long as the sun
3. = the sun shall endure forever

If the name of God exists forever, then the sun shall as well.

Additionally:

Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

Psa_89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

 

[Truth7t7]

1/6 of the Early churches' theological schools taught eternal Annihilation, Ephesus. Not much can be said negatively of them. No group is sinless or perfect but I'd side with them over the other 5 theological schools.

As I stated you believe in and promote "Eternal Annihilation" just as the JW,s and 7th Day Adventist, God's words teach otherwise

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Zao is life]

Your claim is "False" I will be resurrected or changed at the return of Jesus Christ, just as scripture teaches below

The complete chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is dedicated to the second coming and resurrection, at this time the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When Jesus Christ returns as seen in verse 23 above, the resurrection takes place, in verse 52 below it gives a "Detailed" description of how long this takes place (In The Twinkling Of An Eye) in verse 54 below in "Detail" it shows the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

When Jesus returns the resurrection takes place in the twinkling of an eye, when the last enemy death is destroyed (The End) its that simple, why do you resist the simple words of God's truth before your eyes?

1 Corinthians 15:51-54KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

But you are part of the creation that you say is going to be completely destroyed. So if you are not completely destroyed with all creation, then all creation is not going to be completely destroyed.

In the new creation that you say is a completely new creation you may not even exist because you may not be created after you were completely destroyed with all the current creation.

The creature (created thing) that rises from the dead is the same creature that died, and you say the creature (all creation) is going to be completely destroyed by fire.

 

[ewq1938]

As I stated you believe in and promote "Eternal Annihilation" just as the JW,s and 7th Day Adventist, God's words teach otherwise

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Smoke going up forever isn't evidence of eternal torture and having no rest day or night is what happens to people who are alive and take the mark.

This is what happens to people cast into the LOF:

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell2Co_2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:.


Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.

My verses are actually directly about what happens to the unsaved in the fire. The one verse you cited doesn't support your claims and your misinterpretation contradicts two verses of the bible, and I have many more verses that show the same thing.


Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

A lot of negative things will not exist in the future.

Wiping tears away means no more tears. Tears will not exist.
There shall be no more death. Death will not exist.
There shall be no more sorrow. Sorrow will not exist.
There shall be no more crying. Crying will not exist.
There shall be no more pain. Pain will not exist.

"for the former things are passed away." That means they are gone, gone everywhere, gone forever. If those things existed anywhere then the scripture would be lying.



Tears, death, sorrow, crying and pain will be Annihilated and shall never again exist. Is it such a stretch that the unsaved wicked people will also be Annihilated? Scripture over and over promises that they shall be Annihilated. Believe what scripture says and reject false doctrines that teach otherwise.



John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.


This is just a small offering of what the bible actually teaches on this subject.



The results of decades of bible study led me to understand that Annihilation is the correct doctrine for most that are cast into the lake of fire. There *might* be an exception regarding the beast, false prophet and the devil but that is based on one single verse with a high likelihood of a figure of speech that does not mean literally forever. There are also two verses that say the devil will be destroyed and no longer exist so those need to be taken in consideration.


The case for eternal torture is weak, and comparable to one grain of sand versus the case for Annihilation which is comparable to all the rest of the grains of sand not only on the Earth but on every planet in the Universe. That is a vast difference between the biblical support for eternal torture versus the biblical support for Annihilation.


the biblical support for eternal torture-------------------------------------------the biblical support for Annihilation


I rest my case.

 

[Truth7t7]

Smoke going up forever isn't evidence of eternal torture and having no rest day or night is what happens to people who are alive and take the mark.

This is what happens to people cast into the LOF:

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell2Co_2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:.


Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.

My verses are actually directly about what happens to the unsaved in the fire. The one verse you cited doesn't support your claims and your misinterpretation contradicts two verses of the bible, and I have many more verses that show the same thing.


Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

A lot of negative things will not exist in the future.

Wiping tears away means no more tears. Tears will not exist.
There shall be no more death. Death will not exist.
There shall be no more sorrow. Sorrow will not exist.
There shall be no more crying. Crying will not exist.
There shall be no more pain. Pain will not exist.

"for the former things are passed away." That means they are gone, gone everywhere, gone forever. If those things existed anywhere then the scripture would be lying.



Tears, death, sorrow, crying and pain will be Annihilated and shall never again exist. Is it such a stretch that the unsaved wicked people will also be Annihilated? Scripture over and over promises that they shall be Annihilated. Believe what scripture says and reject false doctrines that teach otherwise.



John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.


This is just a small offering of what the bible actually teaches on this subject.



The results of decades of bible study led me to understand that Annihilation is the correct doctrine for most that are cast into the lake of fire. There *might* be an exception regarding the beast, false prophet and the devil but that is based on one single verse with a high likelihood of a figure of speech that does not mean literally forever. There are also two verses that say the devil will be destroyed and no longer exist so those need to be taken in consideration.


The case for eternal torture is weak, and comparable to one grain of sand versus the case for Annihilation which is comparable to all the rest of the grains of sand not only on the Earth but on every planet in the Universe. That is a vast difference between the biblical support for eternal torture versus the biblical support for Annihilation.


the biblical support for eternal torture-------------------------------------------the biblical support for Annihilation


I rest my case.

The only support for Annihilation is found in you, the JW,s and 7th Day Adventust, because it's not found In my holy bible

 

[ewq1938]

The only support for Annihilation is found in you, the JW,s and 7th Day Adventust, because it's not found In my holy bible

It is in your bible but you can't address those bible scriptures because they prove your beliefs wrong so you avoided them completely and made a lame and false claim to have something to post.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell2Co_2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:.


Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.