Imputation is based on the Old Testament

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Episkopos

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Don't twist and distort what I believe. Jesus is God, He is the Creator. Yes it was Jesus will and the Father's will to die for our sins. Well, at least you believe that. So it's a duo instead of a trio for you.
But what about the Holy Spirit, another Helper, our Comforter, sent by the Father and the Son, Who teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is omninscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, sanctifies us, justifies us, convicts us of sin, edifies us ( that is to say those who have a relationship with Him and He dwells inside them) ... ???
The mystery is in the nature of God who IS Spirit and is omniscient (without the need of a separate person to do that for Him). Notice this from Jesus...

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless:
I will come to you.


Jesus will come to us? How? By the Spirit.

Who dwelt with the disciples and then was receive within them? Jesus was.

The Spirit of truth is the Spirit of Christ, who is the truth.



19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know
that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him,
and will manifest myself to him.


Jesus visits those who love Him.


22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and
we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

How does the Father and the Son come to live in people? By the Spirit.

God is Spirit. And the Father and the Son share one Holy Spirit between them. When we enter into Christ we enter into the love that is between the Father and the Son (This is actually Catholic doctrine)
 
J

Johann

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What a labyrinth the human mind can be.....lost and dizzy down a long dark rabbit hole with so many twists and turns. I'm glad the Lord makes it so simple we have to become as little children to receive it..... we don't have to break a sweat with human effort, and in fact breaking a sweat is against His will and for good reason. (Linen comes to mind.) :)
....and garments, and the righteous acts of the saints.
J.
 

Episkopos

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It's always very telling when disagreement and simple discussion on a forum from behind a computer screen is equated to persecution on the level of what Jesus and the prophets endured, goodness gracious!
When you get to see behind the curtain, so to speak...you will see what spirit animates people. Religious people act a certain way...and even if they realize what they are doing isn't right...they still do it. Why? Because it is a spirit.

Now that spirit, that has gone into the world is looking for a place to dwell. ALL uncrucified flesh that claims to be justified by Christ is in a great risk of adopting that religious spirit. But if we would be purged of the flesh...we can be a vessel of honour to the Lord.

In a great house there are both vessels of honour AND dishonour.
 
J

Johann

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The mystery is in the nature of God who IS Spirit and is omniscient (without the need of a separate person to do that for Him). Notice this from Jesus...

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless:
I will come to you.


Jesus will come to us? How? By the Spirit.

Who dwelt with the disciples and then was receive within them? Jesus was.

The Spirit of truth is the Spirit of Christ, who is the truth.



19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know
that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him,
and will manifest myself to him.


Jesus visits those who love Him.


22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and
we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

How does the Father and the Son come to live in people? By the Spirit.

God is Spirit. And the Father and the Son share one Holy Spirit between them. When we enter into Christ we enter into the love that is between the Father and the Son (This is actually Catholic doctrine)
The hole you are digging is getting deeper and deeper.....

Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Act 13:2 They were ministering to Adonoi and under a tzom when the Ruach Hakodesh said to them, “Set apart for Me Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul for the avodas kodesh ministry to which I have called them.” [DIVREY HAYAMIM BAIS 13:10; 35:3; YECHEZKEL 40:46; 44:16; 45:4]
OJB

λειτουργουντων δε αυτων τω κυριω και νηστευοντων ειπεν το πνευμα το αγιον αφορισατε δη μοι τον τε βαρναβαν και τον σαυλον εις το εργον ο προσκεκλημαι αυτους

Separate me , [ aforisate (G873) moi (G3427)]. It is worthy of notice that the apostle himself uses the same word to express two divine acts (the one of providence, the other of grace) toward himself, designed to prepare him for the great work to which he was called-the one at his birth, the other at his conversion to Christ:

"When it pleased God (says he), who separated me [ aforisas (G873)] from my mother’s womb, and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me," etc. (Gal_1:15-16); and again, "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated [ aforismenos (G873)] unto the Gospel of God," etc. (Rom_1:1).

Those who deny the Personality of the Holy Spirit must find it hard to make any tolerable sense of the command which He is here said to have issued; while His supreme and proper divinity is evident on the face of it; because who could suppose a mere creature saying, "Separate unto Me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have summoned them?" The authenticity of this history may be called in question; but if that be admitted, it speaks for itself as to the faith of the early Church regarding the Holy Spirit.

Also.......

As they prayed, the Holy Spirit definitely instructed them to separate ... Barnabas and Saul for the specific work which He had in mind. This, incidentally, is a very definite proof of the personality of the Holy Spirit. If He were nothing but an influence, it would be inconceivable that such language as this could be used. How did the Holy Spirit convey this message to the prophets and teachers? Although no definite answer is given, it is likely that He spoke through one of these men who were prophets —either Simeon, Lucius, or Manaen.
 

Lizbeth

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You are not understanding the significance of this. The Jews see Azazel as the devil. The "escape goat."

One goat is FOR the Lord...and is sacrificed. The other has its sins laid on its head and cast away into the wilderness.
Do you think the carnal mind of unbelieving Jews is bound to lead them to the gospel or astray from it? The carnal mind is the devil's own workshop, sadly.

And it sows confusion. Which God is not the author of.
 
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Johann

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Maybe the Lord is directing you to not look at my posts? :) Does my mere existence offend you?
Don't flatter yourself, friend, you are incapable of "offending" me. Christ and His message offends many, hence the twisting and perverting of scriptures to "soften the tone and truth."
 

stunnedbygrace

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Do me a favor, you and your disciples go your way, I'll go wherever the Lord wants me to.
He was going his way quite nicely. How odd to enter his thread and then tell him to do you a favor and go his way when that was what he was already doing.
Maybe you should whistle for marks again. @@@
 

Episkopos

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Then you'll have to explain how believers in the wilderness are a SIN OFFERING AND ATONEMENT for the sins of Israel. I had to go back and read Lev. 16 to refresh my memory on the details of what is written.

The escape goat is presented alive before the Lord to make an atonement upon him. (Remember that the other goat is killed as a sacrifice TO the Lord as a sin offering). You are assuming that the atonement of the escape goat is as also a sin offering.

Look at verse 21and 22...


21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


You have read where it says blessed is the man on whom the Lord does not IMPUTE iniquity. Well. Here we have certain ones having to bear the iniquity of all the people...not as a sacrifice...but as a judgement.

So here is the right way to see imputation (of iniquity) for those who are NOT worthy of imputed righteousness, but take on ALL the sins of Israel.

Jesus also said this...

(you will need some discernment here...)

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

How can Jesus require of one generation the iniquity of another generation? Now read about the iniquity laid upon the head of the escape goat...and you will see that the ones who are cast into outer darkness to roam forever in the wilderness have their sins IMPUTED TO THEM....and even more than their own sins...




People will read anything they want into scriptures and split hairs all day long to support even one erroneous thought.
If you could only see what you are doing. Why do you assume that everything you have been taught is true?

You are splitting hairs with me.
The rest is more religious haggling...trying to hear by speaking....



Sins of the nation were laid on the scapegoat and then it was sent outside the camp to die, just as Jesus was crucified outside the camp, outside Jerusalem TO MAKE ATONEMENT for our sins. That is why we also are to follow Him there, outside the camp, to die to ourselves in the wilderness and become a living sacrifice. The other goat allowed to live, represents the Israel of God, and all believers, imputed to be without sin/spot and spared from the death we all deserve, because the scapegoat died in our place! The gospel is so beautifully illustrated in the OT sacrifices, once we have eyes to see.
The scapegoat died in our place? I can't even respond to this. Believe what you want...but don't post verses and then say the very opposite. It's tiring.

....the sacrificed goat died...the scapegoat lived.

Re-read Lev. 16
 
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Episkopos

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When people believe a lie...they are forced to speak from the spirit of the lie. They cannot help themselves...being taken captive by the spirit of the lie. You will know them by their fruit. The truth sets us free to speak from a place of peace, love and righteousness.

Look at these posts by people who agree with what is an obviously very unloving (yet religious) character and the carnal motivations that look for the bible to nurture what should be crucified...not uplifted. Why do people put up with that and see that as good? Because it already lines up with their own carnal disposition. Why do so many religionists support obvious liars and those with moral failures in politics? Because it furthers THEIR agenda (not God's).

Jesus said...My words are Spirit, and they are life.

So then there is MORE to the truth than just what the human mind can grasp. And this causes people to stumble over Christ and the truth so that they are CERTAIN the truth can't be right.

When the carnal mind is engaged in a misrepresentation of God's words...a spirit enters in that isn't of the Lord. Only the truth sets us free. The lie brings us into the bondage of a spirit that feeds on lies. Read this thread with that in mind...and grow in understanding. :)

Peace
 
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Johann

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The escape goat is presented alive before the Lord to make an atonement upon him. (Remember that the other goat is killed as a sacrifice TO the Lord as a sin offering). You are assuming that the atonement of the escape goat is as also a sin offering.

Look at verse 21and 22...


21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


You have read where it says blessed is the man on whom the Lord does not IMPUTE iniquity. Well. Here we have certain ones having to bear the iniquity of all the people...not as a sacrifice...but as a judgement.

So here is the right way to see imputation (of iniquity) for those who are NOT worthy of imputed righteousness, but take on ALL the sins of Israel.

Jesus also said this...

(you will need some discernment here...)

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

How can Jesus require of one generation the iniquity of another generation? Now read about the iniquity laid upon the head of the escape goat...and you will see that the ones who are cast into outer darkness to roam forever in the wilderness have their sins IMPUTED TO THEM....and even more than their own sins...





If you could only see what you are doing. Why do you assume that everything you have been taught is true?

You are splitting hairs with me.
The rest is more religious haggling...trying to hear by speaking....




The scapegoat died in our place? I can't even respond to this. Believe what you want...but don't post verses and then say the very opposite. It's tiring.

....the sacrificed goat died...the scapegoat lived.

Re-read Lev. 16
[2.] As he is the high priest, so he is the sacrifice with which atonement is made; for he is all in all in our reconciliation to God. Thus he was prefigured by the two goats, which both made one offering: the slain goat was a type of Christ dying for our sins, the scape-goat a type of Christ rising again for our justification. It was directed by lot, the disposal whereof was of the Lord, which goat should be slain; for Christ was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.

First, The atonement is said to be completed by putting the sins of Israel upon the head of the goat. They deserved to have been abandoned and sent into a land of forgetfulness, but that punishment was here transferred to the goat that bore their sins, with reference to which God is said to have laid upon our Lord Jesus (the substance of all these shadows) the iniquity of us all (Isa. 53:6), and he is said to have borne our sins, even the punishment of them, in his own body upon the tree,

1 Pt. 2:24. Thus was he made sin for us, that is, a sacrifice for sin, 2 Co. 5:21. He suffered and died, not only for our good, but in our stead, and was forsaken, and seemed to be forgotten for a time, that we might not be forsaken and forgotten for ever. Some learned men have computed that our Lord Jesus was baptized of John in Jordan upon the tenth day of the seventh month, which was the very day of atonement. Then he entered upon his office as Mediator, and was immediately driven of the Spirit into the wilderness, a land not inhabited.
Secondly, The consequence of this was that all the iniquities of Israel were carried into a land of forgetfulness. Thus Christ, the Lamb of God, takes away the sin the of world, by taking it upon himself, Jn. 1:29. And, when God forgives sin, he is said to remember it no more (Heb. 8:12), to cast it behind his back (Isa. 38:17), into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:19), and to separate it as far as the east is from the west, Ps. 103:12.

(2.) The entrance into heaven which Christ made for us is here typified by the high priest's entrance into the most holy place. This the apostle has expounded (Heb. 9:7, etc.), and he shows,

[1.] That heaven is the holiest of all, but not of that building, and that the way into it by faith, hope, and prayer, through a Mediator, was not then so clearly manifested as it is to us now by the gospel.

[2.] That Christ our high priest entered into heaven at his ascension once for all, and as a public person, in the name of all his spiritual Israel, and through the veil of his flesh, which was rent for that purpose, Heb. 10:20.

[3.] That he entered by his own blood (Heb. 9:12), taking with him to heaven the virtues of the sacrifice he offered on earth, and so sprinkling his blood, as it were, before the mercy-seat, where it speaks better things than the blood of bulls and goats could do. Hence he is said to appear in the midst of the throne as a lamb that had been slain, Rev. 5:6. And, though he had no sin of his own to expiate, yet it was by his own merit that he obtained for himself a restoration to his own ancient glory (Jn. 17:4, 5), as well as an eternal redemption for us, Heb. 9:12.

[4.] The high priest in the holy place burned incense, which typified the intercession that Christ ever lives to make for us within the veil, in virtue of his satisfaction. And we could not expect to live, no, not before the mercy-seat, if it were not covered with the cloud of this incense. Mere mercy itself will not save us, without the interposition of a Mediator. The intercession of Christ is there set forth before God as incense, as this incense. And as the high priest interceded for himself first, then for his household, and then for all Israel, so our Lord Jesus, in the 17th of St. John (which was a specimen of the intercession he makes in heaven), recommended himself first to his Father, then his disciples who were his household, and then all that should believe on him through their word, as all Israel; and, having thus adverted to the uses and intentions of his offering, he was immediately seized and crucified, pursuant to these intentions.

[5.] Herein the entry Christ made far exceeded Aaron's, that Aaron could not gain admission, no, not for his own sons, into the most holy place; but our Lord Jesus has consecrated for us also a new and living way into the holiest, so that we also have boldness to enter, Heb. 10:19, 20.

[6.] The high priest was to come out again, but our Lord Jesus ever lives, making intercession, and always appears in the presence of God for us, whither as the forerunner he has for us entered, and where as agent he continues for us to reside.
2. Here are likewise typified the two great gospel duties of faith and repentance, by which we are qualified for the atonement, and come to be entitled to the benefit of it.
(1.) By faith we must put our hands upon the head of the offering, relying on Christ as the Lord our Righteousness, pleading his satisfaction as that which was alone able to atone for our sins and procure us a pardon. "Thou shalt answer, Lord, for me. This is all I have to say for myself, Christ has died, yea, rather has risen again; to his grace and government I entirely submit myself, and in him I receive the atonement," Rom. 5:11.

(2.) By repentance we must afflict our souls; not only fasting for a time from the delights of the body, but inwardly sorrowing for our sins, and living a life of self-denial and mortification. We must also make a penitent confession of sin, and this with an eye to Christ, whom we have pierced, and mourning because of him; and with a hand of faith upon the atonement, assuring ourselves that, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Lastly, In the year of jubilee, the trumpet which proclaimed the liberty was ordered to be sounded in the close of the day of atonement, ch. 25:9. For the remission of our debt, release from our bondage, and our return to our inheritance, are all owing to the mediation and intercession of Jesus Christ. By the atonement we obtain rest for our souls, and all the glorious liberties of the children of God.

Don't complicate things here friend.
 

stunnedbygrace

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breaking a sweat is against His will
Keeping in mind that the word is spirit and truth,

By the sweat of your face You shall eat bread

The soul of the lazy one craves and gets nothing,
But the soul of the diligent is made prosperous.

For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

A lazy one buries his hand in the dish; He is weary of bringing it to his mouth again.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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God is Spirit. And the Father and the Son share one Holy Spirit between them
Believe me, I have tossed this concept around and I would be willing to go with it if it were not for several scriptures that distinguish the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son. Jesus refers to "Him", "He" (ekeinos) as "another Helper" that the Father would send. Jesus didn't say I will send My spirit at the Time of Pentecost and thereafter, although we do have the spirit of the Son and the Father. Jesus said "He" will teach you all that I have and will glorify Me. Is He glorifying Himself? Also we can see Jesus at His baptism ( Whom already had a spirit all His life) and the Father speaking and thr Spirit descending on Him. So you would be implying that Jesus did not have a spirit before the Holy Spirit descended on Him.
And this whole topic of course is likely to be trashed - how sad. They might as well delete me too - perminently. The day someobe prohibits to speak about the Holy Spirit, is the time for me to go elsewhere.
Who dwelt with the disciples and then was receive within them? Jesus was.

The Spirit of truth is the Spirit of Christ, who is the truth.
It is confusing. GOD IS ONE. But you can't deny that He differentiated between Himself and the Holy Spirit and The Father. He said, I must go first - otherwise He won't come. And also our baptism is commanded to be in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Oh boy, I guess I can't keep this rule? How can talking about the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Godhead be a violation? Sad.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless:
I will come to you.
He is a personal being distinct from the Father and the Son, yet they are One.
Jesus also warned everyone that sins against Him would be forgiven, but not a sin against the Holy Spirit, that would not be forgiven. Do you see the differentiation? Otherwise according to your view, Jesus said sins against Me will be forgiven and then sins against Me will not be forgiven.
 
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Lizbeth

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When you get to see behind the curtain, so to speak...you will see what spirit animates people. Religious people act a certain way...and even if they realize what they are doing isn't right...they still do it. Why? Because it is a spirit.

Now that spirit, that has gone into the world is looking for a place to dwell. ALL uncrucified flesh that claims to be justified by Christ is in a great risk of adopting that religious spirit. But if we would be purged of the flesh...we can be a vessel of honour to the Lord.

In a great house there are both vessels of honour AND dishonour.

The escape goat is presented alive before the Lord to make an atonement upon him. (Remember that the other goat is killed as a sacrifice TO the Lord as a sin offering). You are assuming that the atonement of the escape goat is as also a sin offering.

Look at verse 21and 22...


21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


You have read where it says blessed is the man on whom the Lord does not IMPUTE iniquity. Well. Here we have certain ones having to bear the iniquity of all the people...not as a sacrifice...but as a judgement.

So here is the right way to see imputation (of iniquity) for those who are NOT worthy of imputed righteousness, but take on ALL the sins of Israel.

Jesus also said this...

(you will need some discernment here...)

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

How can Jesus require of one generation the iniquity of another generation? Now read about the iniquity laid upon the head of the escape goat...and you will see that the ones who are cast into outer darkness to roam forever in the wilderness have their sins IMPUTED TO THEM....and even more than their own sins...





If you could only see what you are doing. Why do you assume that everything you have been taught is true?

You are splitting hairs with me.
The rest is more religious haggling...trying to hear by speaking....




The scapegoat died in our place? I can't even respond to this. Believe what you want...but don't post verses and then say the very opposite. It's tiring.

....the sacrificed goat died...the scapegoat lived.

Re-read Lev. 16


Ok, this is going to get deep. I went back to Lev 15 for this….why there were TWO doves or pigeons to be given in sacrifice to cleanse the person's uncleanness.

I pray the Lord to help me express these things clearly, but it has to do with SEPARATING the person or nation from their uncleanness (sins). Ie, REMOVING their sins far from them…..like where the bible says "as far as the east is from the west so far has He REMOVED our transgressions from us".


Lev 15:29-31

And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.

Thus shall ye separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness; that they die not in their uncleanness, when they defile my tabernacle that is among them.


More clearly pictured with the two goats…..one is scapegoated, ie, an innocent party with the sins of the nations imputed to it (as Jesus was numbered with the transgressors even though innocent). A scapegoat is blamed for wrongdoing that they didn’t commit. It was sent outside the camp into the wilderness in order to bear and REMOVE the sins of the nation far from it, thus CLEANSING the nation and temple. Yes the other goat could be offered because it was imputed now to be CLEAN and without spot, since the other goat removed and took all the uncleanness far away.

I believe this is like where Jesus said two were in the field and one was taken and the other left, two were in a bed, one was taken the other one was left. Notice they were either two men or two women (the same person divided)….this has to do with the word of God DIVIDING/SEPARATING soul from spirit. And why Paul could say it is no longer I who sin but sin living in me. Our sins are not imputed to us….but get removed from us by the cross of Christ….we get separated from our sins and our sins are judged and carried away but not we ourselves. We ourselves are then offered to the Lord as a CLEANSED/spotless offering, yes we die to ourselves in the offering of ourselves, loving not our lives unto the death, not seeking to save our life/psuche… but are a living sacrifice. I hope it's accurate to say that it's like the sinful part of the person (the flesh old man carnal nature) is judged and crucified - soul/psuch - while the part of us that has been cleansed and separated from this, our spirit.....gets to LIVE.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Still mulling over these two goats. I have never looked into it.
It makes no sense to say both goats speak of Jesus.
The first Goat was sacrificed for atonement of the sins of the people. That I think I can maybe see as portraying Jesus, (although I’m slightly bothered that it’s a goat instead of a lamb.)
But I definitely don’t see how if the first one portrays Jesus dying for me and taking my sin upon Himself, that the second one is then also Jesus taking my sin upon Himself, a second time.
It doesn’t sound like the “it is finished” of Jesus. It sounds, absurdly, like Jesus forever wandering. Huh uh.

I get the inkling that, as Epi has said the Jews believe, the second goat in some way speaks of (satans fate?) and…the fate of those who are outside the gates in the end, those who died in the wilderness due to not continuing in trust…
Im going to let it simmer a bit and see what else God might show me.

Im actually not sure EITHER of the goats speak of the Passover Lamb/Jesus to me. They seem to more (to me) speak of final judgement…like Passover is Jesus dying and Atonement is…something more universal? Like…separating sheep from goats…too dim. Yep, simmer.
 
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Lizbeth

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Still mulling over these two goats. I have never looked into it.
It makes no sense to say both goats speak of Jesus.
The first Goat was sacrificed for atonement of the sins of the people. That I think I can maybe see as portraying Jesus, (although I’m slightly bothered that it’s a goat instead of a lamb.)
But I definitely don’t see how if the first one portrays Jesus dying for me and taking my sin upon Himself, that the second one is then also Jesus taking my sin upon Himself, a second time.
It doesn’t sound like the “it is finished” of Jesus. It sounds, absurdly, like Jesus forever wandering. Huh uh.

I get the inkling that, as Epi has said the Jews believe, the second goat in some way speaks of (satans fate?) and…the fate of those who are outside the gates in the end, those who died in the wilderness due to not continuing in trust…
Im going to let it simmer a bit and see what else God might show me.
Our posts crossed in cyber space....see what you think of what I posted just above yours. Yes, we need the Lord to show us by His light.
 
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