If you have a bible which removes the latter part of 1 John 5:7, then your "bible" is not the word of God.

[Mikey-for-sure]

Notice that passage never gives permission for edits and retractions? Yet the Bible to date has endured all this. Mistranslations, error in punctuation (Johannine Comma),and so forth.

If God inspired the Bible and ancient men believed that wouldn't God have preserved his first words throughout the centuries? And wouldn't men have respected this and let it alone?

This is why God, who saw it coming, told us to test. Not believe every spirit but test to see if they are of God.
And how we discern that isn't through the Bible. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is true.
It's through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

To test something, one must test it against something.

In fact, there are more variations than words. But when asked if there are any changes vis-a-vis the meaning of text, all the scholars that I am aware of says no.

I guess you never played telephone? :-) The meaning passed down thousands of scribes and churches and various cultures to boot and retain a singular unified meaning is kind of mind boggling. The meaning conveyed to ancient is the same as that conveyed to a modern. I will revel in the spirit of the bible as it is true wonder, not in a spirit that is incoherent.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Strictly speaking, the Bible is NOT the Word of God. The Word of God is not a book. It is Someone, namely Jesus Christ. The Gospel of John begins, "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God.". St. John was speaking of Jesus Christ, not a book!

Then what is the Bible? It is one of the two methods of transmission of the Word of God (the other being oral, mentioned by St. Paul in 2 Thes 2:15). In fact the Bibles we read are a translation into the vernacular of one of the two main transmissions of the Word of God. Translations have errors due to differences of language and culture.

I think his point is the modern Bible translations based on the Alexandrian texts are missing words, so it is not the whole "word of God." Personally, I prefer the NKJV too. I like as much of the Bible as I can get.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

To test something, one must test it against something.

In fact, there are more variations than words. But when asked if there are any changes vis-a-vis the meaning of text, all the scholars that I am aware of says no.

I guess you never played telephone? :) The meaning passed down thousands of scribes and churches and various cultures to boot and retain a singular unified meaning is kind of mind boggling. The meaning conveyed to ancient is the same as that conveyed to a modern. I will revel in the spirit of the bible as it is true wonder, not in a spirit that is incoherent.

You can make a false doctrine out of the short verse without the "condition" so I don't agree with those "scholars"?

Romans 8:1 NKJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 NASB
Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

[ButterflyJones]

To test something, one must test it against something.

In fact, there are more variations than words. But when asked if there are any changes vis-a-vis the meaning of text, all the scholars that I am aware of says no.

I guess you never played telephone? :) The meaning passed down thousands of scribes and churches and various cultures to boot and retain a singular unified meaning is kind of mind boggling. The meaning conveyed to ancient is the same as that conveyed to a modern. I will revel in the spirit of the bible as it is true wonder, not in a spirit that is incoherent.

I'm not aware that all scholars concur as you allege.

Telephone is a great analogy for what we have today compared to in the beginning.

 

[RLT63]

The last part of 1 John 5:7 is spurious because it is not in any manuscript before 1500 which simply means it was added to the original writing. You can not simply add to the scriptures to try to prove a point or your point.

The Johannine Comma of 1 John 5:7-8: Added or Removed? - Berean Patriot

Of all the passages in the Bible, few have caused as much controversy as 1 John 5:7-8. There is a clause present in the KJV and a few other translations that most modern bibles don't include. This clause is so controversial, it even has it's own name: the "Johannine Comma". The question is this...

www.bereanpatriot.com

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

You can make a false doctrine out of the short verse without the "condition" so I don't agree with those "scholars"?

Romans 8:1 NKJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 NASB
Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. My contention is
1)that the bible when traced from all the manuscript sources,does not cause major upheavals in the theology. So these biblical scholars concur with this assessment, One of the scholars is atheist/agnostic that despite the massive variations in the copies, there are no titanic shifts in understanding. This statement is to counter the charge of bibliotry as per butterfly.
2) As for the Johannine comma, it was dutifully found to be incorrect and by folks with the real holy spirit, fixed it. The holy spirit does notbuild on what is wrong. To say otherwise seems to be quite worldly.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

I'm not aware that all scholars concur as you allege.

Telephone is a great analogy for what we have today compared to in the beginning.

As there are no headlines that say belief was seismically changed, I would bet no reputable scholar would say the sky was falling. No sky just a Mountain :-)

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
(a la 1 John 5:7 Commentaries: For there are three that testify:
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven] If there is one thing that is certain in textual criticism, it is that this famous passage is not genuine. The Revisers have only performed an imperative duty in excluding it from both text and margin. External and internal evidence are alike overwhelmingly against the passage.

Welcome to CB forums.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

All this ado about a comma and what may have been original words or not that followed.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus assures His audience on the mount that He had not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; rather, He had come to fulfill them. Then, in verse 18, Jesus emphasizes the eternal nature of God’s Word: “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” (KJV).

Most of us are unfamiliar with jots and tittles because most of us do not read the Hebrew language. Jots and tittles have to do with letters and pen strokes in Hebrew writing.

Is instead the argument really on God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost?

John 14:26 KJV
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

This, the Holy Ghost, is the true revealer of the word, Jesus, not an interpretation or translation ! Let God be true and all men liars.

 

[quietthinker]

If you have a bible which removes the latter part of 1 John 5:7, then your "bible" is not the word of God.​

I have a bible which only has the New Testament. I must be down the flush?

 

[Lambano]

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book... (Revelation 22:18)

Hmm.

19 ...and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19)

Hmm.

Which principle above applies to the Comma?

 

[Johann]

Too many of us practice without knowing it biblioidolatry. Worship of the book, Bible. That's wrong.

Error-

The Scriptures and Christ is indissolubly echad.


The importance of the Bible is impossible to overstate. Throughout the ages, countless men and women have written volumes to underscore the significance of the Scriptures. But we should not take any human’s word for it. What the Bible tells us about itself is all that matters.

Some writers have called the Bible God’s love letter to us. Others have described it as our handbook for life. It is both these things and so much more. The importance of the Bible is based on the fact that it is the revelation of God to us (John 1:1–5). Scripture is God’s Word to humankind. It is inspired, or breathed by God, meaning every word in every part of the original manuscripts comes from God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16–17). The Bible is also inerrant, meaning every word in every part of its original, handwritten stage is without error (2 Peter 1:20–21; Psalm 12:6; Proverbs 30:5; 1 Thessalonians 2:13).

The importance of the Bible is that it gives us the opportunity to see and know God. The Scriptures reveal His character and nature, His sovereignty and power, and His reason for creating us, the universe, and everything in it. We read about God’s dealings with humankind, His goodness and grace, His light and love, His holiness and justice, and His mercy and compassion.

The Bible reveals God’s desire from the beginning to have a people of His own (Leviticus 26:12). In it, we learn about the perfect fellowship that humans once had with God in paradise and how it was broken by sin and disobedience. But through the sacrifice of God’s Son, Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven. We discover that God desires to redeem us and restore us to a right relationship with Himself (Romans 5:1–11, 18–19). Through reading God’s Word, we can come to understand the purpose of our lives as well as God’s plans from the beginning of time through all eternity (1 Peter 2:9; Ephesians 2:10).

The importance of the Bible is that it is a life-giving book. The Word of God is alive and powerful, “sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires” (Hebrews 4:12, NLT). The God who desires to redeem us gave His Word the power to save us (2 Timothy 3:15). We “have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God” (1 Peter 1:23).

Not only does the Bible have the power to save us, but it also has the power to sanctify us: “Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart” (1 Peter 1:22). God’s Word has the power to cleanse us, sanctify us, and make us holy (John 15:3; 17:17; Ephesians 5:26). And His Word gives us the power to defeat sin and bring our thoughts into spiritual obedience to God (2 Corinthians 10:4–5).

The importance of the Bible is that it shows us God’s will. By obeying what the Lord says in the Bible, we can keep ourselves pure (Psalm 119:9, 11). Meditating on the teachings of Scripture will cause us to prosper spiritually and bring blessings and true success in life (Joshua 1:8; James 1:25).

The Bible contains essential wisdom and guidance for making our way through life: “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Psalm 119:105, ESV). Jesus taught us to depend on God’s Word for our “daily bread.” We cannot underestimate the importance of consuming it regularly, for it is the fuel of our spiritual lives (Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:1–4). God’s Word equips and empowers us to serve Him (2 Timothy 3:17; Hebrews 4:12), and we can wield it as our greatest offensive weapon against our adversary, the devil, and the powers of darkness (Ephesians 6:17).

The Word of God is eternal: “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever” (Isaiah 40:8). Truth is eternal: “The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever” (Psalm 119:160, ESV). How can we doubt the importance of the Bible, when we read, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matthew 24:35)?

I don't "worship my Bible" but it is my primary source from my loving Father in heaven-teaching and guiding me through the Holy Spirit to appreciate my Lord Jesus and what He has done and still doing for me through the Spirit.

Not being facetious with you.
J.

 

[Johann]

You can make a false doctrine out of the short verse without the "condition" so I don't agree with those "scholars"?

Romans 8:1 NKJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 NASB
Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Really?

"condemnation" This term katakrima is not used often in the Septuagint, but it reflects the curse of noncompliance in Deut. 27:26 (cf. Deut. 27:26 quoted in Gal. 3:10 where it is equal to the "curse"). This means "punishment following a judicial sentence." It is the legal, forensic opposite of justification. It is a rare term in Paul's writings (cf. Rom. 5:16,18) and used no where else in the NT.

The concept of condemnation first occurs with Satan accusing God's people of covenant violations and later non-Israelites like Job (cf. Job 1-2). But now believers have died with Christ to the law (cf. Romans 6) and, therefore, neither the law nor Satan have grounds for accusations.

The King James Version added to verse 1, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." This phrase does not appear in many ancient Greek manuscripts in verse 1.

The UBS4 gives it omission an "A" rating (certain). It does appear in Rom. 8:4.

It is totally theologically inappropriate in Rom. 8:1, but fits perfectly in Rom. 8:4. Verses 1-3 are dealing with positional sanctification (indicative), while verses 4-11 deal with experiential sanctification or Christlikeness (imperative, see note at Rom. 8:29). Notice the footnote on page 289 in William R. Newell's Romans Verse by Verse. (Moody, 1938).



Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Controversial?-"who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" Not in the original?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

--Then why is it here?

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Yes?
J.

 

[Johann]

Strictly speaking, the Bible is NOT the Word of God. The Word of God is not a book. It is Someone, namely Jesus Christ.

I would say this is error-

The phrase “word of God” appears often in the Bible and can have a slightly different meaning depending on context and the Hebrew or Greek word used. John 1:1-2 says, “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” Here, Word is a title of the Lord Jesus. The term translated “Word” is logos, which basically means “the expression of a thought.” Logos can be thought of as the total message of God to man (Acts 11:1; 1 Thessalonians 2:13). Jesus embodied that total message, and that is why He is called the “Logos,” or “Word,” of God (Colossians 1:19; 2:9).

Logos is also used many times when referring to the written message of God (John 17:17; 1 Timothy 4:5; Revelation 1:2; Colossians 1:25). Hebrews 4:12 says, “The word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” Jesus showed a link between the written Word of God and Himself, in that He is the subject of the written Word: “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me” (John 5:39).

Another Greek word used for “word” is rhema. Rhema refers to the actual spoken/written words of God (Hebrews 6:5). When Jesus was being tempted by Satan, He answered, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word [rhema] that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4). We are told in Ephesians 6:17 to “take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word [rhema] of God.” Jesus demonstrated we need the actual recorded words of God to overcome Satan’s attacks.

The phrase “word of God” means more than the printed words on a page. God is a communicator and has been speaking into the human realm since the beginning. He speaks through His creation (Psalm 19:1), through ancient prophets (Hosea 12:10; Hebrews 1:1), through the Holy Spirit (John 16:13; Acts 16:6), through Scripture (Hebrews 4:12), and through the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:9). We can learn to know God better by seeking to hear Him in every way that He speaks.


Which is-of course-through the Scriptures.
So strictly speaking-the Bible is the D'varim of God.
J.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Simply, bc the histories of God's ppl, in the OT. were orally given, except for the broken 10 Commandment, (written by God's finger) and the NT written letters are obscure or lost, we have to rely on the many many translations written by modern day man to study the words of God.
My preference is the KJV, I do not own nor use any other translation in study !
I do however concur the bible is not the word of God but is the only manual or book we have in following his word, which is Jesus.Therefore we must be careful handlers of the word of God.

People are saved " by the hearing, and of doing" of the word, how shall they hear, except some be sent to preach.This is commanded to all believers that be followers of the Word. ( Jesus )

All in all said, it is the SPIRIT OF THE LETTER, that is written that must be our
guide !

 

[ButterflyJones]

Simply, bc the histories of God's ppl, in the OT. were orally given, except for the broken 10 Commandment, (written by God's finger) and the NT written letters are obscure or lost, we have to rely on the many many translations written by modern day man to study the words of God.
My preference is the KJV, I do not own nor use any other translation in study !
I do however concur the bible is not the word of God but is the only manual or book we have in following his word, which is Jesus.Therefore we must be careful handlers of the word of God.

People are saved " by the hearing, and of doing" of the word, how shall they hear, except some be sent to preach.This is commanded to all believers that be followers of the Word. ( Jesus )

All in all said, it is the SPIRIT OF THE LETTER, that is written that must be our
guide !

In the beginning was the word.

And the word was with God.

And the word was God.


The word of God saves. ;)

 

[L.A.M.B.]

In the beginning was the word.

And the word was with God.

And the word was God.


The word of God saves. ;)

Absolutely Amen !

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

All this ado about a comma and what may have been original words or not that followed.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus assures His audience on the mount that He had not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; rather, He had come to fulfill them. Then, in verse 18, Jesus emphasizes the eternal nature of God’s Word: “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” (KJV).

Most of us are unfamiliar with jots and tittles because most of us do not read the Hebrew language. Jots and tittles have to do with letters and pen strokes in Hebrew writing.

Is instead the argument really on God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost?

John 14:26 KJV
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

This, the Holy Ghost, is the true revealer of the word, Jesus, not an interpretation or translation ! Let God be true and all men liars.

Hello L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d, the Johannine comma is a comment written on the side of the page of the manuscript It was never meant to be part of any verse. It was a scribe's scribble.

John 14:6
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Truth is a duty. An obligation of faith.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Welcome to CB forums.

Thanks.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Hello L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d, the Johannine comma is a comment written on the side of the page of the manuscript It was never meant to be part of any verse. It was a scribe's scribble.

John 14:6
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Truth is a duty. An obligation of faith.

And who is sure of this statement ?( Someone had to decide and write what you stated, as none of us were at the first compilation of the bible. )

Since the only words of God we have are written from oral or long lost letters to the first churches, how do we know where the stop is in any passage ?

Not to be facetious but to gain understanding, why do ppl not trust in the Holy Spirit to be their guide ? Are we at the stage in this world, that much learning" is making ppl mad or insane with their own understanding ?