"If" or "When"? - 1 John 1:9

[MA2444]

St. SteVen said:
a literary device.

Uh... so you don't know what a literary device is?

No, I suffer from irregularity. - LOL

I blame it on my cancer treatment.

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Sure I do,
A literary device is a technique or strategy that authors use to enhance their writing and convey their message. Literary devices can be used to:

Create evocative prose: Literary devices can make writing more compelling and attention-grabbing.
Advance the plot: Literary devices can further the plot of a story, play, script, or poem.
Hint at larger themes: Literary devices can help writers hint at larger themes, ideas, and meaning in their writing.
Engage the audience: Literary devices can help authors engage their audience with deeper interpretations and messages


He got you engaged didnt He? By using If?! Lol. Check this out!

Matthew 6:16-18
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.../KJV

The Word of God doesnt say IF in this verse! It says moreover, When You Fast....as if the Lord expects you to fast! This is not a suggestion and it doesnt read as if you have a choice. It's a commandment in other words. Dont you wish it said IF in this passage? Lol!

Seriously, fasting is serious business. It is God's apponted way for man to humblle themselves before Him. He expects you to fast sometimes. He didnt say starve yourself, he said fast.

 

[MA2444]

I do half-fast fasts. And let's not bring my regularity into the discussion.

Is that like a Daniel fast?

 

[St. SteVen]

The Word of God doesnt say IF in this verse! It says moreover, When You Fast....as if the Lord expects you to fast! This is not a suggestion and it doesnt read as if you have a choice. It's a commandment in other words. Dont you wish it said IF in this passage? Lol!

Seriously, fasting is serious business. It is God's apponted way for man to humblle themselves before Him. He expects you to fast sometimes. He didnt say starve yourself, he said fast.

Wow.
"The Word of God..." (starts by playing the God card to win the debate)
"When You Fast....as if the Lord expects you to fast!" (as if?)
"This is not a suggestion and it doesnt read as if you have a choice." (what happened to "as if"?)
"It's a commandment in other words." (When you fast is a commandment?) There is no directive here.

- What are the consequences for "disobedience"? (to your so-called commandment)

- And what do you mean, "He didnt say starve yourself, he said fast."?

- Did Jesus eat when he fasted in the wilderness?

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[MA2444]

Wow.
"The Word of God..." (starts by playing the God card to win the debate)
"When You Fast....as if the Lord expects you to fast!" (as if?)
"This is not a suggestion and it doesnt read as if you have a choice." (what happened to "as if"?)
"It's a commandment in other words." (When you fast is a commandment?) There is no directive here.

You saying I won? Or that God has no place in a discussion about english grammer and rules of literature and writing techniques? But I have no debate with you over that, lol. So He says "if" sometimes if we have a choice in the matter. And He wont say if if we have no choice in the matter. I figured you dont fast, hardly anyone wants to fast. And that tells us to fast.

Dont that sound like a commandment to you? It does to me.

- What are the consequences for "disobedience"? (to your so-called commandment)

- And what do you mean, "He didnt say starve yourself, he said fast."?

- Did Jesus eat when he fasted in the wilderness?

-I dont know, that's between you and God.

-Because I've heard that excuse too, lol. I dont want to lose muscle mass and so forth. So a half fast is better than none.

-I dont think He did. It desnt sound like it in the story. 40 days is about the maximum that a human can survive without starving to death and dying. Jesus had to be pretty weak in the flesh at that time. But He was strong in spirit so ha made it and then Angels came to Him with some food! It says they ministered unto Him but He needed food! So how else could they minister unto Him? Food & drink.

 

[KUWN]

Ever notice that the exegetical techniques taught in Evangelicalism tend to focus on individual verses and not look at the work as a whole and ask, "what is the author's overall objective, and how does this verse fit into that overall objective?"

Can you give us a couple of examples of this assertion.

 

[St. SteVen]

And that tells us to fast.

No, it doesn't. IMHO

So how else could they minister unto Him? Food & drink.

Well... many ways, I suppose.

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[MA2444]

No, it doesn't. IMHO

So the dad says to the son, when you take out the trash you can go get us some ice cream.

What did he tell him to do? Did he tell him to do one thing or two?
How does it not tell us to fast? It says when you fast, like it is already expected that you fast.

How about "Pray Unceasingly" Is that a commandment? Sounds like it to me!

Well... many way, I suppose.

Ok so Jesus had just been 40 days with nothng to eat and you think they prolly didnt bring Him food?! That's funny, Brother!

 

[MA2444]

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He is all man and all God. And as a man He had to eat too! And after 40 days without food, Jesus flesh body had to be in poor shape. He didnt do any Transfiguration in the desert! He went through it because He had to. Because He chose to. And if you dont think going without food for 40 days will affect you, har de har har...

We are commanded to humble ourselves before God, and God's appointed way for man to afflict his soul is by fasting. Are you going to make me look that scripture up? It's in there. I read it just the other day.

You dont have to fast for forty days to make an effective fast. Not even 24 hours. You can fast for one meal. You can fast that one chocolate bar you were going to buy and eat. Anything that you deny your flesh is overcoming the flesh and humbling yourself before God.

The longest that I have ever fasted was for 7 days. Just water, no food at all. When I felt hungry I drank two big glasses of water and read the word instead. I was surprised how much energy I had. The first 3 days were the hardest. After that it was smooth sailing. It was about the 4th or 5th day? That my poop turned black and I expelled a lot of toxins. You see when your body has no food to burn for fuel then it starts burning toxic cells and fat cells and so forth. So a 7 day fast really cleaned out my body well.

Fasting is very good for your body. It's like leaving your nice 'Vette parked in the garage and not driving it all day every day. Give it a rest.

Why wont you fast? Biggest reason.

 

[Lambano]

Can you give us a couple of examples of this assertion.

I did in post #18. Did anybody read it?

I've seen multiple Christians use 1 John 3:9 as a proof-text to show that either a) They never, ever sin (despite the blatant contradiction with 1 John 1:8); or b) If the other guy sins, he must not be saved because anyone who is born of God cannot sin.

 

[MA2444]

I did in post #18. Did anybody read it?

I've seen multiple Christians use 1 John 3:9 as a proof-text to show that either a) They never, ever sin (despite the blatant contradiction with 1 John 1:8); or b) If the other guy commits even one sin, he needs to go through the process of getting saved again.

Yeah but we see through a glass darkly, lol.

Looking at life for us right now is like looking at the negative of a picture. It's just a shadow of the real picture.

 

[KUWN]

I did in post #18. Did anybody read it?

I've seen multiple Christians use 1 John 3:9 as a proof-text to show that either a) They never, ever sin (despite the blatant contradiction with 1 John 1:8); or b) If the other guy commits even one sin, he needs to go through the process of getting saved again.

I can not think of one evangelical scholar who holds these views. You may have seen "multiple Christians" teach this, but you are not reading from scholars. Can you give me just one name of these multiple Christians who teach that if a Christian commits even one sin, he needs to go through the process of getting saved again? All I ask is for one!

 

[Lambano]

I can not think of one evangelical scholar who holds these views. You may have seen "multiple Christians" teach this, but you are not reading from scholars. Can you give me just one name of these multiple Christians who teach that if a Christian commits even one sin, he needs to go through the process of getting saved again? All I ask is for one!

Scholars? These are everyday Christian laypeople who say, "I am born again and therefore do not sin". Christians who read the Bible. People on this very board; want me to name names and post links? But I probably should have phrased part b as, "If someone sins, they must not be saved, because anyone born of God cannot sin". I will go back and retroactively make the change accordingly.

 

[KUWN]

Scholars? These are everyday Christian laypeople who say, "I am born again and therefore do not sin". Christians who read the Bible. People on this very board; want me to name names and post links? Want me to name names? But I probably should have phrased part b as, "If someone sins, they must not have been saved in the first place, because anyone born of God cannot sin". I will go back and retroactively make the change accordingly.

If you read Christian laypeople, please don't quote them for a point you want to make. You only quote people who are qualified to make the statement. This way you can't be accused of being lazy and a neophyte. If you are reading Christian laypeople instead of scholars, you will rarely grow in your Christian life.

 

[Lambano]

If you read Christian laypeople, please don't quote them for a point you want to make.

But my very point in post #18 was that Christian laypeople do use the "proof-texting" process to form their beliefs. (Yes, I did have a point in there somewhere.)

Good grief, what percentage of Christian laypeople actually read scholarly works on the Bible? Ask @St. SteVen. He's read a book. But every time he references some scholarly study, he gets flamed.

 

[KUWN]

But my very point in post #18 was that Christian laypeople do use the "proof-texting" process to form their beliefs. (Yes, I did have a point in there somewhere.)

Good grief, what percentage of Christian laypeople actually read scholarly works on the Bible? Ask @St. SteVen. He's read a book. But every time he references some scholarly study, he gets flamed.

Don't be discouraged by laypeople. They are naturally intimidated by scholars. Laypeople tend to be very lazy. The idea of training oneself in the Greek NT is a joke to them. Reading the layperson's posts is rather an exercise in futility. But, that is just my opinion.

 

[JohnDB]

he Word of God doesnt say IF in this verse! It says moreover, When You Fast....as if the Lord expects you to fast! This is not a suggestion and it doesnt read as if you have a choice. It's a commandment in other words. Dont you wish it said IF in this passage

Atonement Day required a fast by all.

 

[St. SteVen]

If you read Christian laypeople, please don't quote them for a point you want to make. You only quote people who are qualified to make the statement. This way you can't be accused of being lazy and a neophyte. If you are reading Christian laypeople instead of scholars, you will rarely grow in your Christian life.

Lighten up a bit. @Lambano doesn't need you to boss him around. That's my job. - LOL

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[St. SteVen]

But, that is just my opinion.

Can we quote you? Or aren't you a scholar?

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[KUWN]

Can we quote you? Or aren't you a scholar?

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I was graduated magna cum laude from a bible college in Dallas Texas back in 1983. I majored in Bible/Theology, and a minor in Biblical Languages, and I have worked for Dan Wallace and his organization Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. I worked Textual criticism for him and then flew to England to do some take offs there and then flew to Athens Greece where I was sent there to find uncatalogued manuscripts. I found 8 at the Benake Museum. They were hidden in the back shelves. These manuscript were never listed in the K-List. I helped Dr. Friberg with his Analytical Greek New Testament where I did word studies for him. I was an editor for a new Greek Grammar of the New Testament. And several other adventures. So yes you can quote me, as far as whether or not I am a scholar, that would be hard to say.

 

[St. SteVen]

I was graduated magna cum laude from a bible college in Dallas Texas back in 1983. I majored in Bible/Theology, and a minor in Biblical Languages, and I have worked for Dan Wallace and his organization Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. I worked Textual criticism for him and then flew to England to do some take offs there and then flew to Athens Greece where I was sent there to find uncatalogued manuscripts. I found 8 at the Benake Museum. They were hidden in the back shelves. These manuscript were never listed in the K-List. I helped Dr. Friberg with his Analytical Greek New Testament where I did word studies for him. I was an editor for a new Greek Grammar of the New Testament. And several other adventures. So yes you can quote me, as far as whether or not I am a scholar, that would be hard to say.

Good to know, thanks.

What do you think is the biggest general misunderstanding that Christians have about where our New Testament came from?

[