If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

[bbyrd009]

there is a space for agreement here, should you choose to be in agreement
gentlemen

 

[Wrangler]

I fear it will never happen, since Christians among themselves are all over the place in their opinions on what is literal is what is allegorical. :

I think your basic problem is misusing the document, to begin with. Why don’t you identify what is literal and allegorical via green and blue letters?

I never heard a Christian even talk about doing what you claim to be waiting for. It’s just another standard atheists invent to deem failure.

 

[Wrangler]

Oh? See 1 Cor 13.

Faith, hope and charity. Nothing about love in there. You just proved my point. :)

Faith, hope and charity? The words are faith hope and love (not charity).

In addition, the chapter continues by explicitly stating the greatest of these is love. Yet, you are so blind as to deny love is even in the love chapter.

This is precisely the kind of intellectual dishonesty and willful ignorance one has come to expect from atheists.

My mind went a completely different way than yours there. My mind scratched its head and said, but…charity IS love…

Exactly right!

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, I've been waiting some 50 years for your religion to produce a 'Green and Blue Letter Bible' - with the verses that are literal and not highlighted like the 'red letter' bibles. I fear it will never happen, since Christians among themselves are all over the place in their opinions on what is literal is what is allegorical. :

why not just ignore everyone else, and determine for yourself?

I think your basic problem is misusing the document, to begin with. Why don’t you identify what is literal and allegorical via green and blue letters?

I never heard a Christian even talk about doing what you claim to be waiting for. It’s just another standard atheists invent to deem failure.

fwiw ive been refusing to read literal history for about ten years now, started as a trial run
my initial pov was "its just a story to me whether it really happened or not"

 

[Gaffer]

I think your basic problem is misusing the document, to begin with. Why don’t you identify what is literal and allegorical via green and blue letters?

I never heard a Christian even talk about doing what you claim to be waiting for. It’s just another standard atheists invent to deem failure.

How can I determine what is literal or allegorical when billions of Christians can't begin to agree about it? Your religion started out with the claim of absolute inerrancy - with every word of the bible being literal. Jonah living in a whale. A snake talking. The sun stopping in the sky. And that worked centuries ago when the laity was not even allowed to own a bible and couldn't read it if they did. Now, as science and reality have exploded so many of these fantasy episodes - Christianity keeps backing up and drawing new lines in the sand. "Oh, well that's not meant to be taken literally..." Really? But it was taken literally for centuries. And - there are still millions of Christians who insist that Jonah did live in a whale. So, which is it? Perhaps if Christians themselves can agree on what is literal and not, they will cease being the object of such much deserved derision. Just sayin...

 

[Gaffer]

why not just ignore everyone else, and determine for yourself?

Because such eisegesis would be piss poor theology?

 

[bbyrd009]

Because such eisegesis would be piss poor theology?

well i mean Paul avoided believers for the first three years of Bible study, and recommended that

 

[Wrangler]

why not just ignore everyone else, and determine for yourself?

fwiw ive been refusing to read literal history for about ten years now, started as a trial run
my initial pov was "its just a story to me whether it really happened or not"

I wrote about this before. Our society's lowering IQ is losing the capacity of discernment and nuance. Today people falsely believe a work of fiction is not true.

The power of fictional stories is that they truthfully reflect the human condition. Luke Skywalker is a fictional story that reflects the hero's journey in a coming of age context. In every man beats a heart that yearns to live the hero's journey. Often, he lacks the courage to live up to his potential.

Consider the journey of 2 Apostles who both rejected Christ; Judas and Peter. Their story diverges when Judas chooses not to endure to the natural end but takes matters into his own hands. Peter is crucified but only after being redeemed by Christ following his trice denying even knowing the Savior of the World.

 

[Wrangler]

How can I determine what is literal or allegorical when billions of Christians can't begin to agree about it?

1st, your premise is untrue. Just because people dispute the truth does not mean that truth does not exist.

2nd, have the courage to find out for yourself, to be wrong but gain wisdom on your journey.

 

[bbyrd009]

I wrote about this before. Our society's lowering IQ is losing the capacity of discernment and nuance. Today people falsely believe a work of fiction is not true.

well, i also believe fiction...is not true? Even if there are some elements that reflect reality
but i would put mythology in a different category; although that is often heard as our "myth" now, which just means "lie"

Their story diverges when Judas chooses not to endure to the natural end but takes matters into his own hands

an argument could pretty easily be made that Judas expected Jesus to poof His way out of the confrontation, as he had witnessed before

 

[Lapidem]

Faith, hope and charity? The words are faith hope and love (not charity).

In addition, the chapter continues by explicitly stating the greatest of these is love. Yet, you are so blind as to deny love is even in the love chapter.

This is precisely the kind of intellectual dishonesty and willful ignorance one has come to expect from atheists.

1 Cor 13 - KJV

"1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."

"2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

The intellectual dishonesty manifests itself in Christian self-denial when thy are faced with the issue of young innocent children being sexually abused or raped by the likes of Jimmy Savile. If you want to honestly speak of love, then explain to readers how an all-powerful God, who could prevent such atrocities from happening, just sits there idly watching it happen. No loving parent would stand idly by whilst their own child was being assaulted by such a person. Why then do Christians live in self-denial making endless excuses for their fictitious God.

 

[Gaffer]

1st, your premise is untrue. Just because people dispute the truth does not mean that truth does not exist.

2nd, have the courage to find out for yourself, to be wrong but gain wisdom on your journey.

1st, I never even implied that truth does not exist. Only that it is clear that any 100 Christians' in a room will not be able to agree on what the truth is.

2nd, it's possible I have forgotten more about the bible than you have bothered to learn. Perhaps when you get another decade under your belt, you won't question the validity of my journey.

 

[bbyrd009]

The power of fictional stories is that they truthfully reflect the human condition

i get where youre coming from, but imo a problem with calling that fiction is that it then gets lumped in with stuff like The Shining etc. That used to be deemed “mythology” i think

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Cor 13 - KJV

"1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."

"2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

The intellectual dishonesty manifests itself in Christian self-denial when thy are faced with the issue of young innocent children being sexually abused or raped by the likes of Jimmy Savile. If you want to honestly speak of love, then explain to readers how an all-powerful God, who could prevent such atrocities from happening, just sits there idly watching it happen. No loving parent would stand idly by whilst their own child was being assaulted by such a person. Why then do Christians live in self-denial making endless excuses for their fictitious God.

so, if you cut out the scribe/translator, your seeking would prolly be more profitable imo

1 Corinthians 13:1 Lexicon: If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

biblehub.com

Strong's Greek: 26. ἀγάπη (agapé) -- Love

biblehub.com

or i mean at least you will find yourself engaging in pointless debate less often

 

[Wrangler]

well, i also believe fiction...is not true? Even if there are some elements that reflect reality
but i would put mythology in a different category; although that is often heard as our "myth" now, which just means "lie"

Like I said, IQ is dropping over time.

 

[Wrangler]

1 Cor 13 - KJV

KJV? You rely on the very worst translation available in English to "prove" your point.

he intellectual dishonesty manifests itself in Christian self-denial

Yea, right! Let's examine your supporting text in more detail, shall we? From Definition of CHARITY

charity​

noun​

char·i·ty ˈcher-ə-tē

ˈcha-rə-​

​

plural charities​

Synonyms of charity​

1​

a
: generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering
also : aid given to those in need
received charity from the neighbors

​

b
: an institution engaged in relief of the poor
raised funds for several charities

​

c
: public provision for the relief of the needy
too proud to accept charity

​

​

2​

: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity
The holidays are a time for charity and goodwill.

​

3​

a

: a gift for public benevolent purposes​

b

: an institution (such as a hospital) founded by such a gift​

​

4​

: lenient judgment of others​

As @stunnedbygrace pointed out, charity is love. Friend, you are self deceived. Read even your KJV of 1 COR 13, noting the appeal to love - in the form of charity. And re-examine your false premise that Christians do not know what real love is.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Like I said, IQ is dropping over time.

And so the REAL effect of the vaccine finally comes out!
lol,just kidding.

 

[Wrangler]

1st, I never even implied that truth does not exist. Only that it is clear that any 100 Christians' in a room will not be able to agree on what the truth is.

Poisoning The Well. Your entire line of illogic is not based on the truth of Jesus Christ being the son of God who came to redeem the world. Your just bashing people for not being fully aligned on every point of doctrine surrounding the greatest expression of God's love for us.

2nd, it's possible I have forgotten more about the bible than you have bothered to learn. Perhaps when you get another decade under your belt, you won't question the validity of my journey.

Son, if your journey has not led you to Christ, of course I am going to question the validity of your journey. I have 18 grandchildren. How many quivers do you have Gaffer? I do not expect to get another decade under my belt sir. Ready I am, to meet my maker now. You?

 

[Wrangler]

i get where youre coming from, but imo a problem with calling that fiction is that it then gets lumped in with stuff like The Shining etc. That used to be deemed “mythology” i think

I'm not sure what you are saying here. However, my point is the converse of what you are trying to say. Just because a story is fictional does not mean it is false. Our ancestors knew this. Our ancestors knew the value of a story is not derived from it being non-fiction.

Do you like history? Consider any non-fiction story. In wiki's 'This day in history' one time I caught a story about about a besieged European army at a castle fighting the Muslims who escaped one night by walking 10 miles in the river up to their neck. It was a short story. I considered how difficult and how exhausting such a journey would be - not just on a full belly but starving, as they were.

(I know they probably did not walk each step with the water up to their neck. However, the closer to shore, the more likely the splashing of their steps would be heard by those laying seige. So, there was strong motivation to stay in the deeper water.) But what truths does it tells us about the human condition? The perseverance, the commitment, the desperation and willingness to overcome?

Although I do not recall the names of the non-fiction people involved in that story, I will never forget the impression it made on me regarding the greatness within man. Is that greatness in me? Is it in you? I believe the truth is yes. But this truth is contextual. We are not going to do it just to prove we can. We would only do it if so motivated. We have such potential. This story can be used to inspire generations. And the truth is non-fiction stories can also. This is because, although a story may be fiction, it is still true.

If you read the Bible this way, seeking to glean the wisdom it contains and not contend with the false dichotomy of asking if the story is true or fiction, you will get a lot more out of it. A lot more.

 

[Gaffer]

Poisoning The Well. Your entire line of illogic is not based on the truth of Jesus Christ being the son of God who came to redeem the world. Your just bashing people for not being fully aligned on every point of doctrine surrounding the greatest expression of God's love for us.



Son, if your journey has not led you to Christ, of course I am going to question the validity of your journey. I have 18 grandchildren. How many quivers do you have Gaffer? I do not expect to get another decade under my belt sir. Ready I am, to meet my maker now. You?

I'm not your son, junior. And couldn't care less how horny your children were. But, yes, I am ready for you to meet your maker. For myself, I'm ready for my existence to cease - without the desperate, craven need to think I will be eating my grandmas cookies again in some heaven I can only attain by worshipping a god so insecure and needy that it has to demand worship under the threat of eternal suffering.

But do tell me again about your gods great expression of love...... while he holds a gun to your head.