I Was But Now I Am

[Matthias]

Psalm 4:8
[8]I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.

One of my favorite verses. God brought me to this as a baby Christian. I have clinged to His Word as a lifeline since the age of 13 when I came to Christ.

Weapons of the world aren’t necessary for safety.

@Matthias, no one here has indicated trusting in a gun, not even once.

There has been much talk about trusting in a gun to defend one’s self and family. I’ve spoken at length against it.

And yet, even Jesus said this:

Luke 22:35-38
[35]And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
[36]Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
[37]For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
[38]And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

There is a time and place for everything.

I dealt with this earlier in the thread. Who was he talking to? Why did he instruct them to buy swords? What was the purpose? Why only two swords? What did they do with them? What did Jesus say about it when one of them did?

There is a time and place for everything? Easily misused to justify anything.

 

[Matthias]

“If it is possible, as much as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.”

(Romans 12:18, NIV)

It isn’t always possible to live at peace with everyone.

As much as it depends on the disciple of Messiah, it is to be done. His disciples are armed with the weapons of the spirit and are a physical danger to no one. They are wise as serpents and as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16).

People seeking to harm others aren’t disciples of Messiah. They are armed with the weapons of the world and are a physical danger to others. They aren’t harmless as doves.

A dove armed with the weapons of the world isn’t harmless.

 

[Matthias]

What happens to harmless doves when they meet up with someone intent on harming them? What does the harmless bird do?

 

[Matthias]

A classroom exercise:

A man of peace and a man of violence face off in the middle of the dusty and deserted street at high noon. Only one man walks away from the encounter alive. Which man is it? And why?

Students picked the wrong man around 9 times out of 10. Why?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A classroom exercise:

A man of peace and a man of violence face off in the middle of the dusty and deserted street at high noon. Only one man walks away from the encounter alive. Which man is it? And why?

Students picked the wrong man around 9 times out of 10. Why?

In 99% of times, the peaceful man aborts the violence of the violent man, if there is chance for an interaction between the two.
That's the power of peace.

We have not become extinct as an species precisely because cooperation, communication, negotiation, has a clear advantage over violence. And this comes from God, and that's why the peaceful will inherit the earth.

Now, defending our own life (or the life of a vulnerable person) in the remaining 1% of cases is not violence. It is protecting a life.
If I am not willing to defend my life, or that of the vulnerable person, then I am committing violence against my or her life, for which I will respond to the Lord.

Violence is not about the use of physical force, but about the rationale or purpose of such physical force.
The same principle that applies to responding to the attack of a bear or a wolf applies to a person who is acting as a bear or a wolf.
Such characterization of people as irrational animals is not new. Jesus used it, when He warned us of offering pearls to the pigs.

 

[Matthias]

In 99% of times, the peaceful man aborts the violence of the violent man, if there is chance for an interaction between the two.
That's the power of peace.

We have not become extinct as an species precisely because cooperation, communication, negotiation, has a clear advantage over violence. And this comes from God, and that's why the peaceful will inherit the earth.

Now, defending our own life (or the life of a vulnerable person) in the remaining 1% of cases is not violence. It is protecting a life.
If I am not willing to defend my life, or that of the vulnerable person, then I am committing violence against my or her life, for which I will respond to the Lord.

Violence is not about the use of physical force, but about the rationale or purpose of such physical force.
The same principle that applies to responding to the attack of a bear or a wolf applies to a person who is acting as a bear or a wolf.
Such characterization of people as irrational animals is not new. Jesus used it, when He warned us of offering pearls to the pigs.

Violence isn’t peace. Violence is wrath.

The man of peace is the man who walks away alive after the showdown in the street.

“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies, and the one who lives and believes in me will never die.”

(John 11:25-26, NET)

The man of violence, though he slay the man of peace, is a dead man walking.

Violence ends in death. Peace ends in life.

God is unable to defend you and your family without having you kill the wicked who seek to harm you or your family?

Of course he is able. So why don’t people live that way?

They either don’t believe that he will or they are afraid that he won’t or might not.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus killed his enemies. The body count is high. He didn’t use any of the weapons of the world against his enemies. He overcame the weapons of the world.

“Be like Jesus” is a radical message and life to men of violence and death.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God is unable to defend you and your family without having you kill the wicked who seek to harm you or your family?

"Thou shalt not kill" is not only about you killing others. It is also about letting the innocent being killed, when you can avoid it.
That's complicity with the murderer.

Violence is wrath, as you put very well.
But defending an innocent is not wrath. It is love.

 

[Matthias]

1%.

That’s worth meditating on.

What might Jesus of Nazareth say to that?

Perhaps, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.“

 

[Matthias]

"Thou shalt not kill" is not only about you killing others. It is also about letting the innocent being killed, when you can avoid it.
That's complicity with the murderer.

It can’t always be avoided and God may not want always it to be avoided. He allows it to happen.

Violence is wrath, as you put very well.
But defending an innocent is not wrath. It is love.

The key is in how, by what means, the innocent is defended by the man of peace.

Love, not wrath, is the means.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Weapons of the world aren’t necessary for safety.



There has been much talk about trusting in a gun to defend one’s self and family. I’ve spoken at length against it.



I dealt with this earlier in the thread. Who was he talking to? Why did he instruct them to buy swords? What was the purpose? Why only two swords? What did they do with them? What did Jesus say about it when one of them did?

There is a time and place for everything? Easily misused to justify anything.

Did you actually answer any of those questions? Or did you just pose them? To me, it's enough that Jesus advised they buy swords. He didn't tell them to go about forcing people or killing people. But they were for a reason. The obvious reason is defense (not offense).

 

[Matthias]

Not a single innocent has been abused, mistreated, even killed that God is not aware of. He could have prevented it, but he didn’t.

I bear this in mind as I go about my work with neglected, abused and at risk children.

I bear this in mind when I think about what could happen to me, or to my family, when I’m threatened by the wicked.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It can’t always be avoided and God may not want always it to be avoided. He allows it to happen.



The key is in how, by what means, the innocent is defended by the man of peace.

Love, not wrath, is the means.

The sword, wielded wisely, is a deterrent to violence against the innocent.
But it is a deterrent precisely because the wicked understands it may be used and will be used if necessary.

Rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil works. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from him, 4 for he is the servant of God for your good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him who practices evil. 5 So it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for the sake of conscience. (Romans 13:3-5)

 

[Matthias]

Did you actually answer any if those questions? Or did you just pose them?

I answered them. Your allegations are being made out of ignorance.

To me, it's enough that Jesus advised they buy swords. He didn't tell them to go about forcing people or killing people. But they were for a reason. The obvious reason is defense (not offense).

The obvious reason was not for defense.

 

[Matthias]

The sword, wielded wisely, is a deterrent to violence against the innocent.

That is properly done by the government.

But it is a deterrent precisely because the wicked understands it may be used and will be used if necessary.

Rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil works. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from him, 4 for he is the servant of God for your good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him who practices evil. 5 So it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for the sake of conscience. (Romans 13:3-5)

 

[TLHKAJ]

There has been much talk about trusting in a gun to defend one’s self and family. I’ve spoken at length against it.

So when you speak of using a gun, it's not trusting a gun ...but when others speak of using a gun, it is. Okay ...I get it Mr self-righteous. lol

You are putting words into people's mouths that they never said nor indicated. Those who have a different view have stated that they believe scripturally that it is God's mandate that we defend the weak, the poor, the oppressed from the violent man. It is not done in wrath, or vengeance. It is done in defense of the oppressed.... totally different when one is ending or stopping violence rather than allowing it to continue.

 

[Matthias]

So when you speak of using a gun, it's not trusting a gun ...but when others speak of using a gun, it is. Okay ...I get it Mr self-righteous. lol

You haven’t got it.

You are putting words into people's mouths that they never said nor indicated. Those who have a different view have stated that they believe scripturally that it is God's mandate that we defend the weak, the poor, the oppressed from the violent man. It is not done in wrath, or vengeance. It is done in defense of the oppressed.... totally different when one is ending or stopping violence rather than allowing it to continue.

Go and kill your enemies then if you must but don’t use Jesus to justify your disobedience.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That is properly done by the government.

This discussion reminds me of the discussions about blood transfusions with our JW friends.
They emphasize that, in current medicine, blood transfusions are not needed 99% of the time (the percentage is mine, not theirs, just for illustration). As a doctor, I agree that, in contexts with good access to medical resources, blood transfusion could be avoided the vast majority of times. Then we go then to discuss the reminding 1%. :)

They believe that accepting death in such situations would be martyrdom.

 

[Matthias]

This discussion reminds me of the discussions about blood transfusions with our JW friends.
They emphasize that, in current medicine, blood transfusions are not needed 99% of the time (the percentage is mine, not theirs, just for illustration). As a doctor, I agree that, in contexts with good access to medical resources, blood transfusion could be avoided the vast majority of times. Then we go then to discuss the reminding 1%. :)

They believe that accepting death in such situations would be martyrdom.

The life is in the blood.

 

[Matthias]

Is it God who says to the preachers of peace that they are self-righteous?

No. It’s the devil who says it to those who preach peace, not war. “Get behind me, Satan” (Matthew 16:23).

”War can’t give life. It can only take it away.“ - Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong, “War”