I need help finding some stuff

[Wakka]

I'm going to see a person I met at one of my interviews for the state fair. And After the interview I had some time to spare, so I was walking with him to his girlfriends job a few blocks away. I got him talking about religion, and he agreed to invite anyone who can provide him "proof" that Christianity is real. And I really need some information.Some background info about him:1. He was raised Baptist, his mother is still Baptist, she constantly begs him to reconsider Christianity.2. He quit because there wasn't any "proof" in what he believed in.3. He isn't very biased, he's more neutral.4. He is studying for a degree in psychology and he know history very well.5. He studied and experimented in different religions (including Buddhism and Islam)6. He would rather be provided historical proof than Biblical proof.7. Fortunately, he is very sincere and will listen to other peoples beliefs. He also has very strong arguments to throw back.Now, I have a little more than a week until we're going to go to his place. The Bible study group I'm in (that got me into public speaking) will have a meeting on it on Thursday.The only resources I have are:BibleA book about the dead sea scrollsInternetYou guys

 

[Christina]

This of course is a hard thing to prove to some for God is largely a matter of Faith in things unseen.But the best proof is the prophecy that are fulfilled already my favorite is Christ words on the cross. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me These Were spoken to lead you to Psalm 22 even though the psalm was written hundreds of years earlier this psalm prophisied exactly what would happen down to the very casting of lots for his clothes

 

[Wakka]

Thank you sister Kriss

.

 

[Christina]

You are most welcome my brother wakkahere is a link for more so you may choose what you think you can best arguehttp://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

 

[tim_from_pa]

Does he doubt the existence of God, or something about Christianity? The way I am reading what you are saying, he still believes in God but there is something about Christianity that he doubts (e.g. he may feel that all other religions are accepted by God which Christianity does not teach that may bother him)I'd find out what exactly happened that turned him off. He may have some valid points. Then, proceed to answer those points. For example, he may perceive that there is a certain error in Christianity which when studied in light of the bible, many Christians may actually be believing wrong doctrine about it. In such a case, he is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Then explain what the bible really teaches so as not to confuse the message with the messenger. In a case like this, you may have to be somewhat of an iconoclast. Major examples of this are things like Christmas and Easter. There are zillions of other things not as obvious.If it is over certain biblically based doctrine, such as Christ is the Only Way, then point out that other religions attempt to justify oneself by works. Christianity is different and actually liberating. Explain what happened in the garden (and even if he wants to take an allegorical view of that the point will still hold). Explain that the nature of the fall is the very same pitfall that man tried to do from the beginning: works. That's the very reason he fell. As a person who is studying for a degree in psychology, I would point out that he ought to have enough insight and discernment to see that----- do we expect perfect performance from our kids (works) or do we want their love and trust instead (like Christianity)?As for considering historical proof over biblical proof, I'm not sure what he wants there. I don't think there are any serious historians that doubts the existence of Christ. The issue is if he raised from the dead. I remember a book I once read as a kid (and there are similar versions out) called "Know why you believe" that covered all the logical and historical points of a resurrected Christ.These are just some examples, but I think you might be able to catch on---- and remember, ask God to open His eyes, for only God can call a person to repentance. The flesh man never chooses God and indeed cannot.

 

[Jordan]

I agree...That prophecy is the best one ever...Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?Mark 15:34 - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?I think I remember hearing (actually reading) Denver saying that "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" was Hebrew...no?But since Christ indeed die on the cross...that is the best thing ever that He had done for us and the unvelievers...but he only bought people that believeth in Him.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.

 

[Wakka]

Well, I talked to him, and basically he summed it up like this:"I was following something I didn't know even existed. There was no proof what-so-ever. I tried other religions, and they came out to the same result. So, my conclusion is that science is the only truth. And unless if I get proof, I'm staying this way. I'm going to live my life the best I can before I die... etc."Oh, and I have this awesome Bible called The Evidence Bible. It's in NKJV I think. The author is God of course, but Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort added the historical and scientific proofs in little foot notes. It also gives advice of how to talk to Mormons and other cults like that.Thank you all for your generous support.

 

[KarlaElisa]

I took a class called Alpha at a Church I attend. It was a 'Jesus, 101' sort of class. They fielded all questions.The pamphlet they had spoke of how after Christ died and was placed in the tomb, 3 days and nights passed. When they returned to annoint his body, as they could not due to the holy days happening, they find he is gone but there sit his clothes, folded and placed in the tomb.What grave robber strips a rotting corpse to run away with it? And how many people would be willing to go to their grave over this if it were just a rumor? People DIED insisting he was the messiah. They were given chances to recant and would not. I would not take a lie that far.And if we are to believe Christ existed at all, we must decide if he was super human or insane? And how many insane people live that righteously?I don't know if this helps any but if you come at this like you are a lawyer....it's far easier to make the case for his existence and that he is God than it is not. At least in my humble opinion anyhow...

 

[ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr]

Anything more specific as to no proof? Josh McDowell has some good stuff as far as that goes. Even the heathen nations recognized Israel had a "powerful god." Assuming he's studying psychology, he also would probably want philosophical proof's like from Anselm, Alvin Platinga, etc..

 

[Wakka]

Since he's a psychologist, I might whip up some psychological questions. Like;Me: When were you born?Guy: [Gives date]Me: How do you know that?Guy: It was written on my birth certificate, and my parents told me.Me: Just because it's written down or someone told you, how do you know it's true or not. The Bible is written, and I can tell you about the Bible. Yet you believe whats on the paper.

 

[Jordan]

(KarlaElisa)
I took a class called Alpha at a Church I attend. It was a 'Jesus, 101' sort of class. They fielded all questions.The pamphlet they had spoke of how after Christ died and was placed in the tomb, 3 days and nights passed. When they returned to annoint his body, as they could not due to the holy days happening, they find he is gone but there sit his clothes, folded and placed in the tomb.What grave robber strips a rotting corpse to run away with it? And how many people would be willing to go to their grave over this if it were just a rumor? People DIED insisting he was the messiah. They were given chances to recant and would not. I would not take a lie that far.And if we are to believe Christ existed at all, we must decide if he was super human or insane? And how many insane people live that righteously?I don't know if this helps any but if you come at this like you are a lawyer....it's far easier to make the case for his existence and that he is God than it is not. At least in my humble opinion anyhow...
Lord Jesus, a super human...I could never buy that lie as there are no such thing as super human...But Jesus is God (John 1:1) who was born in the flesh (John 1:14) of a virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23) So Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) yet he was buried in a tomb for three days...(Matthew 27:64, Matthew 28:1) yet they did not see Him corrupt (Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:27, Acts 13:35)Lord Jesus flesh body is completely different than ours.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.

 

[Wakka]

Would you classify "Bible Codes" as evidence?(Although it's weak evidence in my opinion)

 

[ryangrom]

Hey there. Have you ever watched "the way of the master"? it is a show that ray comfort and kirk cameron host. I have watched numerous episodes. it seems like something you would never want to say to an unbeliever at first. watch a few episodes on youtube to hear their teaching and see it in action on unbelievers. its like fishing.. Some of your historical evidence is the "bait"... but the 10 commandments are the "hook" that create a repenant heart. Jesus himself showed some people their sins in the bible. the woman and the well story for instance.. ray comfort and kirk cameron bring to life the 10 commandments in an applicable way to show sinners their sin. so many people rely on their own goodness to save them. this teaching slices right through that and show people they are in fact sinners more so then they ever imagined. Ray comfort says that "for someone to appreciate the cure, they first have to be convinced of their disease". here is how he uses the 10 commandments..allot of people claim to be a good person. "the heart is justifiably wicked" he has quoted on his show.. rays ideal setup would be to start off with some of the historical evidence as bait or something that would act as bait to the person you are fishing for for obvious reasons. but you have to set the hook. here is how.. Ray starts off and asks "so do you believe you are a good person"? you already said the person you are witnessing to claimed he tries to be, so he will probably just say "i try to be but im not perfect". Ray then asks "can i ask you a few questions to see if thats true?".. your friend will say yes to this im sure.Ray then takes them through some of the 10 commandments..thall shall not murder... so ray will ask "have you ever hated a person?". well the bible also says that to hate a brother is murder. Why? because you murder them in your heart because you are wishing death upon a person you truely hate. actually Ray doesnt use that one so much but he has used sometimes.Here is his main order he uses: Ray starts off asking have you ever lied? of course the answer is yes, everyone has. Ray then asks "what does that make you"? some people reply "human" etc. Ray then prompts them for the word liar like saying "i am looking for a 4 letter word beginning with L or soemthing like that. if they say "just because i lied before doesnt make me a liar now". his reply is if you murder one person you are a murderer.. if you rape on person you are a rapist. it sounds harsh at first but he gets them to admit they are a liar for a good reason ill share in a bit. then he asks have you ever stolen anything? if the person says no, then he says "are you sure? you just told me you were a liar"... he'll say "even something small like a piece of gum or a toy from another kid?". he then asks what does that make you.. a thief.he then asks have you ever taken the lords name in vein. what does that make you? a blasphemer.. anytime you take the lords name and use it to express extreme disgust it is called blasphemy and very serious in the lords site..he then asks have you ever looked at a woman with lust in your eyes.. he then says the bible says that to look at another woman with lust in your eyes is to commit adultery with her in your heart. he normally just uses those 4 and says " ok by your own admission you just admitted you were a liar, thief, blashphemer, and an adulter at heart and we only looked at 4 of the commandments.he then tells the person the verse that says all liars and thieves shall have their part in the lake of fire.i would say something at this point like "i know you dont believe in hell but lets take a look at why it is fair."he then says "Say you are sitting in front of a judge who is a good just judge. lets say you are guilty of your crime and it is obvious you are guilty. Just because you say sorry, should the judge let you off? no! if he is a good judge he would punish you. He then explains how the judge is just about to pass sentence which is life in prison or a million dollar fine. you dont have a million dollars so you are about to be taken away to jail when suddenly a man you dont even know comes in and pays the fine for you. The good judge lets you off because justice has been satisfied. That is what jesus did for us. he paid our fine so we dont have to pay for our sins out of his deep love and passion for us!He shows how all you have to do is accept the fine being paid is faith in jesus from a repenant heart. the 10 commandments just created that. he will often show the verse about "putting on the lord jesus christ". he says to place your faith in christ(putting on the parachute... you just dont believe in the parachute, you put it on just like you do when you place your faith in islaam, judaism, etc.) he also explains how to repent is to turn form sin and turn to god. its not just saying sorry.This sounds harsh but he stresses the point of creating a repenant heart. he taught how just telling someone of the love of god and how their life will be so much better is not good.... he says it gets people coming to god experimentally seeing what they can get out of him.. he says it can create false converts meaning that they are christians who fall away from the faith as soon as they are persecuted for their beliefs and realise it wasnt "what they signed up for" basically. he says to create a true convert in christ, you bring them to the lord in full appreciation of what the lord saved him from out of his love. its all about balance.the ideas on here are all good "bait" in my opinion. but i strongly suggest you dont go fishing without bringing the "hook" to put the bait on. The show is called "the way of the master" because they say that is how jesus evangelised. the show is on nothing but evangelism. If you type in "way of the master ray comfort" in www.youtube.com, you will see allot of free episodes available for download. please give em a try.has anyone else seen this teaching that can comment on it please?

 

[Wakka]

Hey thanks for reminding me of this thread I made containing their audio records. I don't think it had much in terms of proof of God's existence. They were aimed more towards different kinds of people.http://www.christianityboard.com/teaching-...ords-t3093.htmlAgain, thanks for all of the information everyone is providing.Thanks, but I don't really want to have a technique. I have seen their technique and I've tried it in witnessing in the park. It didn't really work well with non-Christian groups. Anyway, it's God that will do the work, not the technique. And I do listen to the WayOfTheMaster radio

.

 

[ryangrom]

Ray said that by "putting on the Lord" is the ultimate proof of God. Its true. its hard to "put on something" that you dont believe for sure though. He's basically telling the person to put themselves out there in faith, and its real hard for a person to do that that wants proof first. One thing I would suggest to say to him is to ask god something like "god, if you're there, i dont want to believe the wrong thing about you.. i seek the truth concerning you. please lead me to the truth concerning you. I need proof first. please lead me to proof"... something like that because it still is admitting to god that he doesnt know the answer(which is humbling himself) and he is asking to be shown the truth(god loves a seeker of truth). ive told people to try that allot. it at leasts provokes them to seek so they can find. remember that the Lord says to not worry about what you are going to say to him on that day, that he will give you the words. cover your meeting with prayer and stand in faith with us that whatever seed you are meant to plant will be planted.

 

[Wakka]

(ryangrom;14965)
remember that the Lord says to not worry about what you are going to say to him on that day, that he will give you the words. cover your meeting with prayer and stand in faith with us that whatever seed you are meant to plant will be planted.
That's what I'm trying to say. I don't want to worry about a technique when the Lord can spill the words out of my mouth. There have been countless times where I just rambled on using that technique and it got me nowhere. I figured it works best on people who think they can get into heaven merely by doing "good deeds".

 

[ryangrom]

to someone so intellectual i wouldnt recomend the bible codes unless he is really into numerology or math. it sounds very.. well, as an intellectual type thinker myself i would consider it in the tarot card family of superstitious type stuff, if i was still an unbeliever. thats just my opinion. it would take allong time to lay out the case for that anyways in my opinion. It could be the very thing he needs to so please dont let my opinion desuade you.. pray about it ultimatelly

 

[Wakka]

I was thinking of collecting all of the evidence I can find. Studying it. And giving him the strong key points. And if that's not enough, just feed him the minor things. However, I feel that the Lord will guide it in a different direction.It happened to my Youth Pastor. God bless him. He was going to state his opinion on equal homosexual union (basic rights junk) and he had set up a whole system of how he would present it to the senate (testimony). Anyway, he had forgotten it at home. And he was left with only a blank bible. You should have seen his face, it was in absolute shock. The only thing he was able to do was to ask God to guide his tongue. So my Youth Pastor opened up a page at random, and the first thing his eyes glanced at was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

It couldn't have been at a better place

.Edit: These testimonials were televised too

.

 

[ryangrom]

(Wakka;14970)
It happened to my Youth Pastor. God bless him. He was going to state his opinion on equal homosexual union (basic rights junk) and he had set up a whole system of how he would present it to the senate (testimony). Anyway, he had forgotten it at home. And he was left with only a blank bible. You should have seen his face, it was in absolute shock. The only thing he was able to do was to ask God to guide his tongue. So my Youth Pastor opened up a page at random, and the first thing his eyes glanced at was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

It couldn't have been at a better place

.
LOL! Man, the Lord is good! It sounds like you are more than ready to me.

Studying everything you can never hurts. If the Lord doesnt use what you are studying now, then he can always use it later. It's allot easier for the Holy Spirit to "quicken" a thought reminding you of something you have already learned on a topic, then it is for you to speak a whole conversation word for word from Him. I believe all those things you are studying are tools the Lord can easily use from you and, even if he doesn't use them on this guy, he can use them in the future. Its kind of like having a bunch of fishing lures in a tackle box the Lord can tell you to tie on the line at any time. Go get him!I prayed over your conversation with him and believing with you that the Lords message will be deposited in this mans heart and that he will be saved.Always remember one plants one waters, so dont be discouraged if he doesnt accept Jesus right then and there... He will and you had a part in the Lords work

Oh, and I forgot to tell you that I loved your idea on using the psycological question that resulted in you saying "Just because it's written down or someone told you, how do you know it's true or not. The Bible is written, and I can tell you about the Bible. Yet you believe whats on the paper.

"

 

[tim_from_pa]

"I was following something I didn't know even existed. There was no proof what-so-ever. I tried other religions, and they came out to the same result. So, my conclusion is that science is the only truth. And unless if I get proof, I'm staying this way. I'm going to live my life the best I can before I die... etc."
I don't think he really took a hard look at the evidence. Historical, archaeological, and religious all concur. For example, if historians at least agree that Christ physically existed, we must ask ourselves why one would get the same story "without enough evidence"?Ever try lying? I gets even better with a buddy who tries to lie with you. Sooner or later something starts to contradict, and in the case of a crime, that's a way a court trial proceeds to show that it is not truth. But when facts align from different perspectives and tell the same story independent of each other, then it hard to believe someone just "dreamed it up" and came out with a congruous story.
Since he's a psychologist, I might whip up some psychological questions. Like;Me: When were you born?Guy: [Gives date]Me: How do you know that?Guy: It was written on my birth certificate, and my parents told me.Me: Just because it's written down or someone told you, how do you know it's true or not. The Bible is written, and I can tell you about the Bible. Yet you believe whats on the paper.
Yeah, I guess he's in the right field, because he is playing psychological games here and is explaining things in terms of relativism. If it's relative, then whose truth do we believe? Again, for the reason I cited above, it does not hold water. IF he used that argument in court, he'd be laughed to scorn. So, the parents concocted a lie, it is recorded in paper in the courthouse, it was perhaps printed in a newspaper long ago, etc, etc all these things work together that have no proof? How could something orchestrated itself so perfectly if there was no proof that the birth happened? IMO, it would take MORE faith to believe that than that the parents and birth certificate told the truth!And notice one word I used: FAITH. He has faith. The issue is WHERE does he put his faith. So it can be debated the same way from the Christian end about his beliefs!