I have a question that remains unanswered:

[David in NJ]

Could I trouble you for a scriptural reference to what you just called God? Which in English is "God the Father", "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit"....you see, I can find "God the Father", no problem....but try as I might I cannot find a single place where Jesus claimed to be "God the Son".....all I can find is Jesus saying that he is "the Son of God"....so not the same thing at all. And nowhere can I fine anyone calling the Holy Spirit "God". I can find "God's Spirit", but not "God the Spirit"...again not the same at all. So can you help me out here?
Where is a direct quote from either Jesus or God himself stating that the "Son" and the "holy Spirit" are both "Almighty God"?
That would end this argument once and for all.


I do, that is why it troubles me to have so many people believe something the Bible does not say.


Yep..."in the beginning"...I have to ask, "the beginning" of what? The eternal Father had no beginning.
And there we have "the Word" being "with God"...so how can the Word be "with God" and at the same time "BE" God?

And where is the third person? Missing as usual. Don't we need him? (John 17:3)

Is it a mystery? or is it a lie? I'll go for the latter based on my own study and research of the scriptures which I did outside of Christendom and her misleading doctrines.

Jesus was sent to "ransom" the human race, so what is a ransom? Isn't it a set amount demanded to get someone out of captivity? If the ransom demanded $50,000 and you paid $50 quadrillion instead, would that make sense to you?

When Jesus was sent to pay the price of Adam's sin, all he needed to be was sinless....atonement (at-one-ment) means "like for like", so he did not need to be God in order to do that. He is called "the last Adam" because his life was the equivalent of the first Adam....a perfect, sinless human being.
God transferred the life of his son from heaven, into the womb of a Jewish virgin so that the Redeemer would be born sinless.
He was also going to offer up his life in order to make the payment. So, let me ask you...can mere humans kill God? God is immortal and therefore cannot die. If Jesus was God then he too would have been immortal, and if he did not really die, then the ransom is not paid and we are doomed to remain in sin forever.
Your trinity complicates everything...it is illogical and completely unscriptural.


So God became his own servant?

How come then that Jesus called his Father "my God" even after he returned to heaven.....(Revelation 3:12) Please explain...

If you do not understand Genesis you will misinterpret the rest of Scripture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hello @Aunty Jane and welcome to C.B.
I like that interpretation: "I Will Be What I Will Be" and I "Was...before Abraham" definitely makes more sense and fits well.

Thank you....I think we all need to do some homework, because what is the point of arguing when we have so many tools to settle these things without bickering.

HE is all in all...who are we to "Name" Him

That is true....but he did name himself....

Exodus 3:14....."And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord [יְהֹוָ֞ה] God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."

טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם
אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר

The divine name is יְהֹוָ֞ה which is YHWH...Yahweh....Jehovah (in English)

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

When Jesus said the Father is greater the I, He said it as the son of man - the Servant of God.

Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow, the same. When Jesus said the Father is greater than I, He said it as the Son of Man the Son of God the Servant of God. No Problem.
I say of my son he is greater than I. I say of my wife she is greater than I. And they say of me that I am greater than they. And so in the Full Fellowship of God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit the One considers the Other as ONE greater than the OTHER. No problem.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I cannot find a single place where Jesus claimed to be "God the Son".....all I can find is Jesus saying that he is "the Son of God"....so not the same thing at all. And nowhere can I find anyone calling the Holy Spirit "God".

You found everything that shows Jesus is "God the Son". God the Father is His Father, not so? So what more or better would make Jesus GOD the Son if the fact God the Father is His Father does not make Jesus God the Son? Crazy!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well, Hallelujah! Happy to serve that up for ya and bury this long-dead horse.

Since the Bible IS The Word of God and God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), and it makes very clear that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is both God and Jesus, that sufficiently fills your order.

"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word WAS God. ... And The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ... the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace (grace is forgiveness - only God can forgive) and Truth (Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.)"
John 1:1, 14

Have you ever studied that verse in Greek?
John 1:1 in Greek does not exactly say what most people think it does....here it is....
" In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."
Do you see that little word "ho"? It means "the", so we have "ho Logos" and we have "ho theos" and then we have just "theos".

Because the Jews had stopped using the divine name, the polytheistic Greeks had no way to distinguish the one God of the Jews from the multitude of gods that they worshipped. All were addressed by their name, and collectively they were just called "the gods".
In order to distinguish him from other divine beings like Jesus Christ, they employed the use of the definite article "ho" (THE) so if you look closely at the Greek, you will see the first mention of God is "ho theos" (Meaning THE God) but in the second mention there is no definite article. Without the definite article this is "a god".

So the correct rendering of this verse is that ho Logos was with ho theos and ho Logos was “a god" (or a divine being or mighty one) "Theos" is not an exclusive term for the Almighty....even satan is called a god.

So in Verse 14 "ho Logos" became flesh not "ho theos".

Skip to verse 18...."No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son—the One who is at the Father’s side—He has revealed Him." (HCSB)

How many people saw Jesus?
Interesting translation of verse 18 in different Bibles, because the Logos is called "monogenes theos" in this verse which is literally "only begotten god".....since the Father is eternal and the son is begotten, this "god" (mighty one) is at the Father's side. Scripture always places him at God's right hand, but nowhere is it ever stated that the Holy Spirit is on his left.

" ... if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. ... if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."
Romans 8:9

God is a spirit, but he is not "the spirit of God". (John 4:24) This spirit belongs to God...it is his to give to whomever he pleases.
The "spirit of Christ"?.....so are you suggesting that this is Holy Spirit too? What is your spirit?

There ya go. Hot, fresh and made to order. Straight from the mouth of God AND Jesus Christ who IS The Word.

Sorry, I am returning this underdone offering to the kitchen....

 

[Aunty Jane]

You found everything that shows Jesus is "God the Son". God the Father is His Father, not so? So what more or better would make Jesus GOD the Son if the fact God the Father is His Father does not make Jesus God the Son? Crazy!

Aaaarrre...NO! Does it make your statement crazy? IMO, Yes.

It makes God (Jehovah) the Supreme Being..."the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18) So there is no one higher.
Being "the son of God" makes Jesus "the son of his Father"....."God the Son" does not exist in a single passage of scripture...."God the Holy Spirit" doesn't either.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you do not understand Genesis you will misinterpret the rest of Scripture.

Can you tell me what is in Genesis that I am failing to understand? I have been a student and teacher of the Bible for over 40 years.
But I am always ready to learn something new....

 

[Aunty Jane]

did you ever bother to stop and think even one second how strange that remark is? If Jesus was simply referring that He existed before Abraham ,as He is the creator of human grammar and knows it better than us, He should have said, "Before Abraham was, I already existed". But no He used in the greek teh present indicative "ego eimi" and in Hebrew "Yah". that is wrong grammatically unless jesus was convey8ing something more (as He was) than just his prior existence.

The glaring fault in that argument is that God never said his name was "I Am" in the first place.

The Jewish Tanakh gives the meaning of God’s name (YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah) as “I Will Be What I Will Be”.
"14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

 

[GEN2REV]

Sorry, I am returning this underdone offering to the kitchen....

To be expected. For those who truly believe, no amount of evidence is needed. For those who do not, no amount of evidence is ever enough.

Can you tell me what is in Genesis that I am failing to understand? I have been a student and teacher of the Bible for over 40 years.

Ohh I sure hope not. This is why the church has fallen away from the Truth so rapidly in recent decades.

Experts like yourself who are always claiming special knowledge that cannot be found in scripture itself, twisting, contorting and wrestling what actually IS contained therein and complicating to infinity all of the simple, and most amazing, Truths of God in His Word.

Such a shame.

But I am always ready to learn something new....

Well, we can all see THAT isn't true.

(This continuing attempt to educate you, and those others who refuse the Truth, isn't really for you. It's for those reading along in the thread who actually are ready to learn.)

Who keeps us from falling? Who is our intermediary between God and man? (1 Timothy 2:5) Who presents us before God as holy and righteous without blame? (Colossians 1:22)

Why, Jesus Christ, of course! ... But wait! GOT QUESTIONS sees it differently:

... we can trust that our God is faithful and able to keep us in His grip and to present us blameless before Himself (John 10:28–30; Romans 7–8; Philippians 1:6). Not only can He do this, but He does it with great joy. This is why we praise Him so greatly.

What does it mean that God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24)? | GotQuestions.org

Wait a minute! BEFORE HIMSELF? God presents us before Himself?!! Apparently so.
And who else holds us in their grip? Why, Jesus Christ.
" ... I give them eternal life; they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them from my hand. My Father, ... is greater than all; ... no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand." John 10:28-29

Can they BOTH be holding us in their grip? Well, the verse after that clears things up.
"I and My Father are One." John 10:30

"And now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Jude 23-24

Jesus is undebatably God.

It is futile to rage against the Almighty Truth. You don't stand a chance.

 

[David in NJ]

Can you tell me what is in Genesis that I am failing to understand? I have been a student and teacher of the Bible for over 40 years.
But I am always ready to learn something new....

Start with "Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness"
Then read carefully about the lives of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob = Three Men whose lives are Foundational for understanding God.
Thirdly, become like a little child before Him - be His Child in heart, mind & spirit.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow, the same. When Jesus said the Father is greater than I, He said it as the Son of Man the Son of God the Servant of God. No Problem.
I say of my son he is greater than I. I say of my wife she is greater than I. And they say of me that I am greater than they. And so in the Full Fellowship of God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit the One considers the Other as ONE greater than the OTHER. No problem.

Correct, i accept all that the Word tells us - Jesus saying the Father is greater then i does not change that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are ONE. That they all share the Essence of God in Themselves whereby it is not a sin for the Son to be equal with God.

Do you believe this: John 1:1 and John 1:18

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus came to Earth, clearly as the Son of Man, clearly revealed is He would be called the Son of God.

Mark 10:
[45] For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Isa 9:6
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Rev 2:
[8] And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


HOW were you deceived when what WAS and IS and SHALL BE is clearly revealed IN Scripture?




What do you mean "No"...?
What do you think is being Taught that is NOT Taught in Scripture?

You and I fully realize that Isa 9:6 is a prophecy about Jesus, however since Jesus is not God, those titles that are applied to him are applied for a reason Taken. Since you highlighted the Everlasting Father, I will explain why Jesus was given that title, even though the Bible clearly shows that Jehovah is the Father. It is through Jesus Christ that regeneration to life comes. He is called “the last Adam . . . a life-giving spirit.” (1Co 15:45) As you stated prophecy designates him as “Eternal Father” (Isa 9:6) and as the one who “poured out his soul to the very death,” whose soul is ‘set as a guilt offering.’ He, as such “Father,” is able to regenerate mankind, thus giving life to those who exercise faith in the offering of his soul and are obedient.—Isa 53:10-12.

This explanation is not contradictory to the Bible as a whole. It may be right or it may be wrong, but Jesus personally stated that he is not the Father, and that the Father who is named Jehovah in the Bible is his God. If your understanding contradicts other Bible teachings, then it is your understanding that is in error, not the Bible.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus stated what He stated--no more, no less. My opinion as to what He meant is an interpretation--no more, no less. I am not interested in volleying back and forth in an endless contest of opinions/interpretations. If you see this as capitulation, that is of no consequence to me. If you have something to say, you are free to say it. Or we could just let the Word of God speak, as it is written. At some point, silence surely is eloquence on matters pertaining to the nature and essence of God. :)

I guess you really do not care, but at any rate, Jesus was not identifying himself as I AM, he simply answered the question that he was asked, and stated the contextual answer, that before Abraham existed, he existed. I AM was simply the words your translator chose to place there. God's name is not I AM, although most of you cut Him off in verse 14, He gave His name in verse 15 and stated very clearly that would be His name forever, I always wonder why you guys do that, but in reality I know the reason, after all who is it that doesn't want you to know God's name?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are? said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham! I tell you the truth Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am! At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds” (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14."

No maam, your translators chose that wording for Jesus answer, Jesus clearly answered their question that he existed before Abraham, had nothing whatsoever to do with his identity. matter of fact that issue came up as well in the Bible, have you ever read the account at
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot * be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world *, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus did set them straight as to who he is Nancy.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes I do. Jesus the man is the only human begotten of God. Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, so when the man Jesus was born, He became the only begotten son of God. but prior to His incarnation He existed as yahweh, the redeemer of Israel and Yahweh of Hosts. He existed as the word of god, and existed as Elohim with His Father. Proof?

John 1:3
King James Version

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1
King James Version

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:26-27
King James Version

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Jesus made ALL things (not all other things as the NWT lies) and God made all things!

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

John 5:23
King James Version

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

honour:

• Lexicon :: Strong's G5091 - timaō
  
  
  
  τιμάω
  
  Vine's Expository Dictionary: honour (19x), value (2x).
  Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to estimate, fix the value
     1. for the value of something belonging to one's self
  2. to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate
• Strong’s Definitions G5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere:—honour, value.

even:


καθώς
Transliteration
kathōs (Key)
Pronunciation
kath-oce'

adverb
Root Word (Etymology)
From κατά (G2596) and ὡς (G5613)
Greek Inflections of καθώς Καθὼς — 2x
καθὼς — 170x
καθώς — 10x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: as (138x), even as (36x), according as (4x), when (1x), according to (1x), how (1x), as well as (with G2532) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G2596 and G5613; just (or inasmuch) as, that:—according to, (according, even) as, how, when.

As long as you refuse to value the son in the same way as teh Father (as Yahweh) you do not have the Father as well!

Like you stated sir, the King James Version, not ours. May I ask why your translators translated theos as a god at Acts 28:6 but as God in Jn 1:1? Do you think that was deliberate sir? I do!

 

[Robert Gwin]

This is for children only - adults have not been unable to understand and can cause blindness and hardening of the arteries.

Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matt 18: 1-5

As you can see by your own words David, Jesus was not referring to literal children, but adults who become as children, innocently humble.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Aaaarrre...NO! Does it make your statement crazy? IMO, Yes.

It makes God (Jehovah) the Supreme Being..."the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18) So there is no one higher.
Being "the son of God" makes Jesus "the son of his Father"....."God the Son" does not exist in a single passage of scripture...."God the Holy Spirit" doesn't either.

Aunty - zip

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In Revelation Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega....the Almighty
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
— Revelation 1:8 (KJV)
That is Jesus outright admitting He is the Almighty God...the Alpha and Omega...the beginning...(can't get any sooner than the beginning of all things) and the end...(can't get any farther than the end of all things)

Yes. And if anyone is in doubt that the Holy Spirit is God......

"3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land? 4Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!”" Acts 5:3-4​

 

[David in NJ]

As you can see by your own words David, Jesus was not referring to literal children, but adults who become as children, innocently humble.

Correct - did you think i was actually telling you to revert back to the physical form of a child - thus an impossibility.

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus stated what He stated--no more, no less. My opinion as to what He meant is an interpretation--no more, no less. I am not interested in volleying back and forth in an endless contest of opinions/interpretations. If you see this as capitulation, that is of no consequence to me. If you have something to say, you are free to say it. Or we could just let the Word of God speak, as it is written. At some point, silence surely is eloquence on matters pertaining to the nature and essence of God.

Amen