Why do Christians believe that, after death, God is unwilling to forgive and save?
I believe that gay people have as much of a "choice" to be gay as you do to not sin
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Why do Christians believe that, after death, God is unwilling to forgive and save?
My cousin was gay for many years! And then he got saved, a true miracle! God totally changed him. He was no longer gay. Someone with faith prayed for him.
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Why does the Bible use the terms "everlasting fire", "eternal punishment" and "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"?
And why is Luke 16 in the Bible?
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do you believe what stands written--or are we going to "dance around" with "limited choice" which I don't find in Scriptures.
Jonah tried to deny God's will and God FORCED Jonah to do his will so, yes, we have LIMITED free will.
I think it's IMPOSSIBLE for any of us to live a sin-free life. I think God knew this and so he came to us in the form of Jesus to offer himself as the perfect sacrifice (the lamb) to cleanse us for our sins.
2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
I know that there are gay people who believe in Christ and I believe that Christ will forgive, heal, and welcome them into Heaven. Do you believe that my belief is mistaken? If so, what do you believe happens to gay people when they die?
If Jesus doesn't save everybody then it seems that these verses are all false.
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’, for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”
Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God
Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
2 Samuel 14:4 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.
Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
It is not what Johann says that counts--but what does the Scriptures about "gay people/homosexuals/lesbians"--I believe you are mistaken on a number of points.
Saviour of all men (sōtēr pantōn anthrōpōn). See note on 1Ti_1:1 for sōtēr applied to God as here. Not that all men “are saved” in the full sense, but God gives life (1Ti_6:13) to all (Act_17:28).
Specially of them that believe (malista pistōn). Making a distinction in the kinds of salvation meant. “While God is potentially Saviour of all, He is actually Saviour of the pistoi” (White). So Jesus is termed “Saviour of the World” (Joh_4:42). Cf. Gal_6:10.
3) "Who is the Saviour of all men" (hos estin soter panton anthropon) "Who exists as the saviour (available) of all men," Joh_4:42, of mankind He is the Saviour. As the Father had life – self –existent life, as a divine attribute, so He gave the Son to have eternal, self-existent life to impart to every believer, ; 1Ti_2:3; 1Ti_2:6.
4) "Specially of those that believe." (malista piston) "Especially or specifically of the believers, the ones trusting." The idea is He is the available Saviour who has Himself provided salvation for all men, but is the effective Saviour only or especially to the responsible believers who by faith have voluntarily trusted in Him, Joh_8:24; Mar_16:16; Joh_3:16; Rom_10:9.
You are quoting scriptures out of context--spinning it--so that "whole world WILL be saved"--and this is not what the text is saying
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
all. Compare Joh_6:37, Joh_6:39.
All that (pān ho). Collective use of the neuter singular, classic idiom, seen also in Joh_6:39; Joh_17:2, Joh_17:24; 1Jn_5:4. Perhaps the notion of unity like hen in Joh_17:21 underlies this use of pān ho.
Giveth me (didōsin moi). For the idea that the disciples are given to the Son see also Joh_6:39, Joh_6:65; Joh_10:29; Joh_17:2, Joh_17:6, Joh_17:9, Joh_17:12, Joh_17:24; Joh_18:9.
I will in no wise cast out (ou mē ekbalō exō). Strong double negation as in Joh_6:35 with second aorist active subjunctive of ballō. Definite promise of Jesus to welcome the one who comes.
John 6:39
The Father's will
Omit the Father's. Render, the will of Him, etc.
That of all which He hath given me (ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέ μοι)
The construction is a peculiar and broken one. All which He hath given, stands alone as an absolute nominative; a very emphatic and impressive mode of statement. Literally it reads, that all which He hath given me I should lose nothing out of it.
6:39 "that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing" There is an obvious relationship between the NEUTER SINGULAR "all that" of John 6:37 and the NEUTER SINGULAR of John 6:39. John uses this unusual form several times (cf. John 17:2,24). It apparently emphasizes the corporate whole (cf. John 6:40,45).
- This is a great promise of God's keeping power, a source of Christian assurance (cf. John 10:28-29; 17:2,24, Notice that the VERB TENSE of John 6:37 is PRESENT TENSE, while in John 6:39 it is PERFECT TENSE. God's gift abides!
Also the last two affirmations of John 6:39 are both AORIST ACTIVE - Jesus does not lose any of that which the Father has given to Him (John 6:37 and 39) and He raises all those who are given to Him on the last day (cf. John 6:44). Here are the divine promises of (1) election and (2) perseverance!
This concept of a day of consummation (both positive and negative) is called by several titles.
the last days, John 6:39,40,44,54; 11:24; 12:48; 2 Tim. 3:1; 1 Pet. 1:5; 2 Pet. 3:3
the last time, 1 John 2:18; Jude 1:18
that day, Matt. 7:22; 2 Tim. 1:12,18; 4:8
a day, Acts 17:31
the great day, Jude 1:6
the day, Luke 17:30; 1 Cor. 3:13; 1 Thess. 5:4; Heb. 10:25
His day, Luke 17:24
the day of the Lord, 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Thess. 2:2
the day of Christ, Phil. 1:10; 2:16
the day of the Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Cor. 1:8; 5:5
the day of the Lord Jesus, 2 Cor. 1:14
the day of Christ Jesus, Phil. 1:6
the day of the Son of man, Luke 17:24 (see also #7)
day of judgment, Matt. 10:15; 11:22,24; 12:36; 2 Pet. 2:9; 3:7; 1 John 4:17
day of wrath, Rev. 6:17
The great day of God ‒ Rev. 16:14
Again--you are selective in Scripture quotations--building a doctrine "that the WHOLE world will eventually be saved--" which is not what the Bible is saying.
Here's Young's Literal Translation that also says that ALL men will be saved. It's pretty straightforward.
1 Timothy 4:10 YLT
for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.
I provided a plethora of scripture to support all men being saved; which you and I interpret differently. That's fine. We can interpret the word differently and still be friends, right?
(I edited to change my poor choice of words).
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1 John
1 John 4:7-8
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
How can anyone read this and then believe that God sends his creation, made no less in his image, to eternal torture or destruction? God doesn't do that. The claim that he does was undoubtedly started by the father of the lie.
1 John 4:7-8
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
How can anyone read this and then believe that God sends his creation, made no less in his image, to eternal torture or destruction? God doesn't do that. The claim that he does was undoubtedly started by the father of the lie.
My apology for saying that you "reject" scripture. I should have said that you and I merely interpret it differently. My apologies.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
That is a fair analogy, with one exception:
It is true that it is our nature to sin, just as it is a fox's nature to eat quail. However, the exception with homosexuality, is that it is not our nature, making it a different type of sin.
Now, having said that...yes, all sin is sin, and the difference matters not to God.
But...back to the nature of foxes-- What if a fox does not have it within it to eat quail which is his nature? Who does he hurt if instead of quail he has a hunger for grass and other such vegetation? Not being a cow or a deer, surely God has not made him to be fully nourished by eating only vegetation. Thus, not only is it against the fox's good health and well being, but it is against God.
Likewise homosexuality.
The Birds and the Bees vs. Apples and Oranges. ;)
7:13-14 The description of the two ways was widespread in Judaism (Dt
30:15–20; Ps 1; Pr 4:17, 18; 12:28; 15:23; WSir 15:17) and in early Christian
writings (Didache, Barnabas). Luke's version (Lk 13:24–30) is more
eschatological, referring to the end of the age. Because we wrestle against
sins and human weaknesses as well as spiritual forces of evil (Eph 6:12),
entering the Kingdom is the more difficult way.
Interesting to note that the compressed way is in the Perfect, Passive, Participle--the leading to life--Present, Active, Participle--and the few [ὀλίγοι] finding it is also in the Present, Active, Participle
Then there is the remnant, elect, and the chosen
ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλεκτή, ἐκλεκτόν (ἐκλέγω), picked out, chosen; rare in Greek writ:, as Thucydides 6, 100; Plato, legg. 11, p. 938 b.; 12, 948 a., etc.; the Sept. for áÈÌçåÌø and áÈÌçÄéø; in the N. T.
1. chosen by God, and a. to obtain salvation through Christ (see ἐκλέγω); hence, Christians are called οἱ ἐκλεκτοί τοῦ Θεοῦ, the chosen or elect of God (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 35 (34); 234 (219)), (éÀäåÈä áÀÌçÄéøÅé, said of pious Israelites Isa_65:9; Isa_65:15; Isa_65:23; Psalm 104:43 (), cf. Wis_4:15): Luk_18:7; Rom_8:33; Col_3:12; Tit_1:1; without the genitive Θεοῦ, Mat_24:22; Mat_24:24; Mar_13:20; Mar_13:22; 1Pe_1:1; with the addition of τοῦ Χριστοῦ, as the genitive of possessor, Mat_24:31; Mar_13:27 (T Tr omit the genitive); κλητοί καί ἐκλεκτοί καί πιστοί, Rev_17:14; γένος ἐκλεκτόν, 1Pe_2:9 (from Isa_43:20, cf. Additions to Esther 8:40 [Esther 8:368:12t] (Esth. 6:17, p. 64, Fritzsche edition));
ἐκλεκτοί, those who have become true partakers of the Christian salvation are contrasted with κλητοί, those who have been invited but who have not shown themselves fitted to obtain it (others regard the ’called’ and the ’chosen’ here as alike partakers of salvation, but the latter as the ’choice ones’ (see 2 below), distinguished above the former; cf. James Morison or Meyer at the passage), Mat_20:16 (here T WH omit; Tr brackets the clause); ; finally, those are called ἐκλεκτοί who are destined for salvation but have not yet been brought to it, 2Ti_2:10 (but cf. Huther or Ellicott at the passage).
b. The Messiah is called preeminently ὁ ἐκλεκτός τοῦ Θεοῦ, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable: Luk_23:35, cf. Luk_9:35 L marginal reading T Tr WH; cf. Dillmann, Das Buch Henoch (übers.u.erkhärt;allgem.Einl.), p. 23:
c. Angels are called ἐκλεκτοί, as those whom God has chosen out from other created beings to be peculiarly associated with him, and his highest ministers in governing the universe: 1Ti_5:21; see ἅγιος, 1 b.; μαρτύρομαι δέ ἐγώ μέν ὑμῶν τά ἅγια καί τούς ἱερούς ἀγγέλους τοῦ Θεοῦ, Josephus, b. j. 2, 16, 4 under the end; (yet others explain by 2Pe_2:4; Jud_1:6; cf. Ellicott on 1 Timothy, the passage cited).
2. universally, choice, select, i. e. the best of its kind or class, excellent, preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians, 2Jn_1:1; 2Jn_1:13; with ἐν κυρίῳ added, eminent as a Christian (see ἐν, I. 6 b.), Rom_16:13; of things: λίθος, 1Pe_2:4 (6) (Isa_28:16; 2Es_5:8; Enoch, chapter 8 Greek text, Dillmann edition, p. 82f).
Thayer.
narrow: Mat_16:24-25; Pro_4:26-27, Pro_8:20; Isa_30:21, Isa_35:8, Isa_57:14; Jer_6:16; Mar_8:34; Joh_15:18-20, Joh_16:2, Joh_16:33; Act_14:22; 1Th_3:2-5
and few: Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Mat_25:1-12; Luk_12:32, Luk_13:23-30; Rom_9:27-29, Rom_9:32, Rom_11:5-6; Rom_12:2; Eph_2:2-3; 1Pe_3:20-21
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Pro 4:26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
Pro 4:27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
Pro 8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Isa 35:8 There shall be there a pure way, and it shall be called a holy way; and there shall not pass by there any unclean person, neither shall there be there an unclean way; but the dispersed shall walk on it, and they shall not go astray.
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord shall give you the bread of affliction and scant water, yet they that cause thee to err shall no more at all draw nigh to thee; for thine eyes shall see those that cause thee to err,
Isa 30:21 and thine ears shall hear the words of them that went after thee to lead thee astray, who say, This is the way, let us walk in it, whether to the right or to the left.
Jer 6:16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths of the Lord; and see what is the good way, and walk in it, and ye shall find purification for your souls. But they said, We will not walk in them.
Isa 57:14 And they shall say, Clear the ways before him, and take up the stumbling-blocks out of the way of my people.
Isa 57:15 Thus saith the Most High, who dwells on high for ever, Holy in the holies, is his name, the Most High resting in the holies, and giving patience to the faint-hearted, and giving life to the broken-hearted:
and few: Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Mat_25:1-12; Luk_12:32, Luk_13:23-30; Rom_9:27-29, Rom_9:32, Rom_11:5-6; Rom_12:2; Eph_2:2-3; 1Pe_3:20-21
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
A Living Sacrifice
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
- Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
My contribution for today.
J.
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