I believe that gay people have as much of a "choice" to be gay as you do to not sin

[Johann]

If Jesus doesn't save everybody then it seems that these verses are all false.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’, for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

2 Samuel 14:4 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

I have learned, from experience, no one listen to the links provided--

 

[Patrick1966]

However, the exception with homosexuality, is that it is not our nature, making it a different type of sin.

I think it can be said that sinning is not in our original, intended, nature although it certainly is in this fallen world, and while we all engage in sin, we don't all engage in the same types of sin.

I suspect that different demons and fallen angels have their own specialties in the sin department. Some may encourage homosexual behavior, others murder, others theft, addiction, etc.

 

[Johann]

I think it can be said that sinning is not in our original, intended, nature although it certainly is in this fallen world, and while we all engage in sin, we don't all engage in the same types of sin.

I suspect that different demons and fallen angels have their own specialties in the sin department. Some may encourage homosexual behavior, others murder, others theft, addiction, etc.

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 1:26-27
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

1:26,27 Homosexuality is one example of life apart from God's obvious will in creation (be fruitful). It was a sin and a major cultural problem

in the OT (cf. Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Deut. 23:18)
in the Greco-Roman world (cf. 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10)
in our day
Homosexuality is probably listed as one example of the fallen life because of the entire context's orientation to Genesis 1-3. Mankind was made in God's image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1,3; 9:6). Mankind was made male and female (cf. Gen. 1:27). God's command was to be fruitful and multiply (cf. Gen. 1:28; 9:1,7). Mankind's fall (cf. Genesis 3) disrupted God's plan and will. Homosexuality is an obvious violation! However it must be stated that this is not the only sin mentioned in the context (cf. Rom. 1:29-31). All sins show mankind's separation from God and their deserved punishment. All sin, especially lifestyle sin, is abhorrent to God.

HOMOSEXUALITY

There is much modern cultural pressure to accept homosexuality as an appropriate alternate lifestyle. The Bible lists it as a destructive lifestyle, out of the will of God for His creation.

it violates the command of Genesis 1 to be fruitful and multiply
it is judged in Genesis 19 (cf. 2 Pet. 2:6-8; Jude 7) and Judges 19
it characterizes pagan worship and culture (cf. Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:18-28; and Jude 1:7)
it reveals a self-centered independence from God (cf. 1 Cor. 6:9-10; 1 Tim. 1:10)

However, let me assert God's love and forgiveness to all fallen human beings. Homosexuality is not "the unpardonable sin."

Christians have no right to act hatefully and arrogantly towards this particular sin, especially when it is obvious that all of us sin, and with Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5:27-28) asserting that sin is in the thought as well as the act, sexual sins are multiplied exponentially.

Prayer, concern, testimony, and compassion do far more in this area than vehement condemnation. God's Word and His Spirit will do the appropriate work if we let them. All sexual sins (i.e., premarital, extra marital, incest, bestiality), not just this one, are displeasing to God and lead to judgment. Sexuality is a powerful gift from God for mankind's well-being, joy, and a stable society. But this pervasive, God-given urge is often turned into rebellious, self-centered, pleasure-seeking, "more-for-me-at-any-cost" living (cf. Rom. 8:1-8; Gal. 6:7-8).

Often people say to me, "God made me this way." It is true that we do not yet know the source of homosexuality (i.e., genetics or social) but whichever, the Bible must guide our choices; choices have consequences. Texts have priority over feelings or personal preferences. We are a faith community guided by Divine revelation, not individual rights or freedoms.

Just a concluding word, as a church leader I know that a percentage of Christians struggle with this issue. The problem is not the propensity but the act. Some ministerial students at my university struggle with other sexual issues (they are so powerful at this stage of life). Those who choose to limit their desires (i.e., abstinence) in this area (i.e., sexual desires) are surely candidates for ministry positions. This is also true for those who struggle with homosexuality. The act, not the thought, is the real issue. Why some are drawn to others of the same sex is a mystery. There is a choice in this area (as in all areas). We are responsible for our choices!

God loves people and desires the long term health, happiness, and vitality of all those made in His image and likeness Those things/acts that disrupt individual health and happiness, as well as community, are condemned. God wants our best! We want our immediate gratification! God have mercy on us all.
Utley.

 

[Patrick1966]

One day ALL will be FREE from the sinful natures that enslave us.

 

[ScottA]

I think it can be said that sinning is not in our original, intended, nature although it certainly is in this fallen world, and while we all engage in sin, we don't all engage in the same types of sin.

I suspect that different demons and fallen angels have their own specialties in the sin department. Some may encourage homosexual behavior, others murder, others theft, addiction, etc.

Good points.

You mentioned homosexual behavior in the same sentence as murder, theft, addiction, etc.. It is a good thought to consider each perhaps in the form of ones "nature" or in the case of homosexuality as "preference." In other words, taking the least of those, perhaps theft--if it were a persons preference to be a thief...would that mean the rest of society should then just consider it "normal" behavior? Or addiction, or murder? No, certainly not. So, why should alternative sextual "preference" get a pass?

I would think they should not.

Going a step further...I would think that most would be compassionate toward someone with an addition and not forbid their coming to dinner...and that goes on a lot with many sins including homosexuality. But having dinner with an openly pathological thief, or murderer? Are thieves people too, are murderers? Of course. How about if they do it for "love?" As a society, I would think we have allowed our compassion to cloud, tolerate, and even encourage and enable many sinful issues. In other words, in some circumstances, maybe a raised eyebrow is actually more of the right kind of help than a hug...like saying no, when no is best.

But don't get me wrong, I've got gay friends (and addicted friends) and we hug all the time with no though or judgement. It's just that it is perhaps not what is best.

 

[Patrick1966]

Good points.

You mentioned homosexual behavior in the same sentence as murder, theft, addiction, etc.. It is a good thought to consider each perhaps in the form of ones "nature" or in the case of homosexuality as "preference." In other words, taking the least of those, perhaps theft--if it were a persons preference to be a thief...would that mean the rest of society should then just consider it "normal" behavior? Or addiction, or murder? No, certainly not. So, why should alternative sextual "preference" get a pass?

I would think they should not.

Going a step further...I would think that most would be compassionate toward someone with an addition and not forbid their coming to dinner...and that goes on a lot with many sins including homosexuality. But having dinner with an openly pathological thief, or murderer? Are thieves people too, are murders? Of course. How about if they do it for "love?" As a society, I would think we have allowed our compassion to cloud, tolerate, and even encourage and enable many sinful issues. In other words, in some circumstances, maybe a raised eyebrow is actually more of the right kind of help than a hug...like saying no, when no is best.

But don't get me wrong, I've got gay friends (and addicted friends) and we hug all the time with no though of judgement. It's just that it is perhaps not what is best.

I'm not inclined to hang out with non-contrite people who reject God and engage in abhorrent sin. At the same time I recognize that they, like me, are slaves to sin and that God will one day fix them, albeit it will be in the hereafter.

 

[ScottA]

I'm not inclined to hang out with non-contrite people who reject God and engage in abhorrent sin. At the same time I recognize that they, like me, are slaves to sin and that God will one day fix them, albeit it will be in the hereafter.

There is a doctrinal issue in that regarding whether God will "fix" everyone or not in the judgement...but that is not the topic of discussion, and I hear ya.

 

[Patrick1966]

There is a doctrinal issue in that regarding whether God will "fix" everyone or not in the judgement...but that is not the topic of discussion, and I hear ya.

Yes, that's my belief and I understand that others have a different view.

 

[TinMan]

Homosexuality is probably listed as one example of the fallen life because of the entire context's orientation to Genesis 1-3. Mankind was made in God's image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1,3; 9:6). Mankind was made male and female (cf. Gen. 1:27). God's command was to be fruitful and multiply (cf. Gen. 1:28; 9:1,7). Mankind's fall (cf. Genesis 3) disrupted God's plan and will. Homosexuality is an obvious violation! However it must be stated that this is not the only sin mentioned in the context (cf. Rom. 1:29-31). All sins show mankind's separation from God and their deserved punishment. All sin, especially lifestyle sin, is abhorrent to God.

By this standard celibacy would qualify as going against God's plan

God loves people and desires the long term health, happiness, and vitality of all those made in His image and likeness Those things/acts that disrupt individual health and happiness, as well as community, are condemned. God wants our best! We want our immediate gratification! God have mercy on us all.
Utley.

And how does suppression, denial and self-hate accomplish these things?

 

[TinMan]

Good points.

You mentioned homosexual behavior in the same sentence as murder, theft, addiction, etc.. It is a good thought to consider each perhaps in the form of ones "nature" or in the case of homosexuality as "preference." In other words, taking the least of those, perhaps theft--if it were a persons preference to be a thief...would that mean the rest of society should then just consider it "normal" behavior? Or addiction, or murder? No, certainly not. So, why should alternative sextual "preference" get a pass?

It seems to me that you just demonstrated that homosexuality is not a preference.

 

[ScottA]

It seems to me that you just demonstrated that homosexuality is not a preference.

I just used the common language.

The term "preference" could be looked at two ways: 1) As if we have a choice when we actually don't, which some just assume and do anyway; and 2) As if, no, it's not a preference but one is simply born that way.

But, no, it's not a choice open to preference--God already made the choice for us according to our "kind" being either male or female, saying that "a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave unto his wife." It's a commandment.

 

[TinMan]

I just used the common language.

The term "preference" could be looked at two ways: 1) As if we have a choice when we actually don't, which some just assume and do anyway; and 2) As if, no, it's not a preference but one is simply born that way.

Is being left handed a preference then?

But, no, it's not a choice open to preference--God already made the choice for us according to our "kind" being either male or female, saying that "a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave unto his wife." It's a commandment.

So once again celibacy is something done in defiance to God.

 

[ScottA]

Is being left handed a preference then?

So once again celibacy is something done in defiance to God.

Why do you question yet another choice made by God and not by men?

Would you make the same argument regarding murder or other sins?

 

[TinMan]

Why do you question yet another choice made by God and not by men?

I'm questioning the rationality of your argument.

Would you make the same argument regarding murder or other sins?

are you suggesting that being left-handed is comparable to being a murderer?

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

I think this is a helpful point. Sin is a power we are under from which we cannot be freed short of grace. And even then, we still can struggle.

For my own part, I do not believe someone who is gay can simply choose to not be gay. It would be like me choosing to not be heterosexual. That's just not going to happen. I couldn't choose to be gay even if I wanted to. I imagine the same holds for those who are gay.

Many kids are taught to be "gay". Many were not born with attraction to the same sex but they choose to experiment because the world is showing that to be normal and if you aren't then something is wrong with you. Satan and his demons are hard at work and even though it seems like they are winning at the moment. God has allowed people to turn away and those who endure till the end will be in Heaven and rewarded.

Being gay has become a cool, all inclusive thing. But God will have the final say! So you can go with the world or stand firm in THE WORD.

 

[amigo de christo]

I think it can be said that sinning is not in our original, intended, nature although it certainly is in this fallen world, and while we all engage in sin, we don't all engage in the same types of sin.

I suspect that different demons and fallen angels have their own specialties in the sin department. Some may encourage homosexual behavior, others murder, others theft, addiction, etc.

GOD has chosen HOW to save the world . BY THE PREACHING OF THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL .
that all who do believe shall be saved . Those who dont , BE DAMNED .
you cant take one verse and then try and make void all those warnings both JESUS and the apostles
AND EVEN PAUL who wrote that said . Pope francis is of all out darkness . WISH he werent . BUT HE IS .
SO i have a question for you . What is your opinion about folks like oprah wimphrey , pope francis
Just wanna hear what you think about such folks as those . AND how do you feel about the all inclusive social gospel .
You dont have to write an essay . Just speak you heart . DONT hold back now . Just speak how you truly see things .

 

[ScottA]

I'm questioning the rationality of your argument.

are you suggesting that being left-handed is comparable to being a murderer?

No, not at all. The point is, God makes such decisions, not men. Men then have a choice of going with it or defying God.

Thus, in the case of homosexuality, it is no different than having inner feelings of murder and acting upon them. Both are against God.

As for being born left handed-- what is the offence? There is none. Therefore, there is no actual comparison--no offence against God.

 

[TinMan]

Many kids are taught to be "gay".

How?

Many were not born with attraction to the same sex but they choose to experiment because the world is showing that to be normal and if you aren't then something is wrong with you.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would choose to be something that would potentially alienate one from their families, subject them to potential emotional and physical abuse from their families, lead to a real danger of discrimination and violence by society.

 

[TinMan]

No, not at all. The point is, God makes such decisions, not men. Men then have a choice of going with it or defying God.

Thus, in the case of homosexuality, it is no different than having inner feelings of murder and acting upon them. Both are against God.

While most would like to pretend otherwise it was barely a generation ago when the vast majority of Christians felt that black people acting as the social equals of whites was no different from murder because such was against the word of God. I think there is still a huge number who believe this its just become socially unacceptable to say it out loud.

As for being born left handed-- what is the offence? There is none. Therefore, there is no actual comparison--no offence against God.

In living memory left-handed childen were physically and emotionally abused for "choosing" to be left handed. The parallels are remarkable.

 

[Patrick1966]

it was barely a generation ago when the vast majority of Christians felt that black people acting as the social equals of whites was no different from murder

This statement has no basis in reality. And, for the record, it was Christians that led the way in the battle against slavery.