How to defend the trinity?

[Zao is life]

Thank you. I'm glad I hesitated posting in this thread. The posts contain assertions, not even arguments. So they are exceedingly weak. Your question is invalid as it has a flawed implied premise. Since the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the doctrine - one cannot rationally defend it from the Bible alone. There simply is no verse that says something like, "The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever." Jesus did not teach the trinity.

The better question is why would one want to defend a doctrine not found in Scripture that actually contradicts much of Scripture? For instance, nowhere is Jesus referred to as the one and only LORD. (There are many lowercase 'lords' of the Bible and Jesus is one of many.) In fact, he is not even the only son of God anymore. (While all first born's are initially "only" children, that remains true only until the next child comes along.) The strongest proof that Jesus is not God is the well recorded fact that he died. The trinitarian appeal to dualism is laughable, expanding God's word to "part of him died."

That Jesus is not the only child of God is the very heart of the Good News, lost on trinitarians. I've encountered people who attempted to violate the Law of Identity to defend this doctrine. A is A and son is son.

While the title is about defending the horrible, inherently contradictory doctrine of the trinity, the real passion is to defend the man-is-god thesis. The easiest way to defeat the trinity is the expose the non-existent '3rd person,' that we pray FOR but not TO.

If the doctrine were valid, why would one sentence of God's word juxtapose God (in his unitarian nature) with Jesus rather than 'the Father'? There are many, many times were the unitarian God is the subject of the sentence while Jesus is not. For instance, Acts 3:15 'God raised him from the dead.'



This is the classical "defense," resorting to threat, a pitiful psychological attack. I've had people come right out and say if you do not believe this anti-Biblical doctrine, you cannot be saved. When I ask where is that in the Bible, the real fun begins. A few explicit verses for your consideration.


Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.
Mark 12:29 (NLT) Jesus quoting the Sh'ma, Deuteronomy 6:4

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14

You shall have no other gods before me
1st Commandment

'For us, there is one God, the Father'
1 Corinthians 8:6

I didn't even have to read your post carefully without seeing you quoting half a verse to support your view, when quoting the full verse would not have supported your view. Also, some of the very scriptures you quote referring to God the Father are applied to Jesus also in the New Testament.

It's quite obvious to me that you don't understand the Trinity, which is why you argue against it .

There are key scriptures which are attributed to God the Father and Jesus equally. Here are some, which I'm only pasting for the benefit of others who may read this, because I realize already that like those who will merely continue to find evidence that the earth is flat and attempt to discredit all evidence to the contrary, you will merely continue to do the same with regard to the Trinity (I say that without prejudice, but only from a position of realism).

God the Father and Jesus the Messiah are called both "God" and "Savior" in the Bible.

"You are My witnesses, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, I am the LORD; and there is none to save besides Me. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shown, when there was no strange god among you; therefore you are My witnesses, says the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was, I am He; and no one delivers out of My hand; I will work, and who will reverse it?" (Isaiah 43:10-13)

"Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, escaped ones of the nations; those who set up the wood of their graven image, and those that pray to a god that cannot save. They know nothing. Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. He says, Only in the LORD do I have righteousness and strength; even to Him he comes. And they are ashamed, all who are angry with Him. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." (Isaiah 45:20-25).

"And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47). "Grace mercy and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." (Titus 1:4b).

The passage in which the above verse (Titus 1:4b) is found, begins,

"Paul, a servant of God (Greek: θεός theós) and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's (Greek: θεός theós) elect, in the acknowledging of the truth which is according to godliness on hope of eternal life, which God (Greek: θεός theós), who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times, but revealed in its own times in a proclamation of His word, with which I was entrusted by the command of God (Greek: θεός theós) our Savior,

to Titus, a true child according to our common faith. Grace mercy and peace from God (Greek: θεός theós) the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." (Titus 1:1-4).

God our Savior, Christ our Savior.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior" (1 Timothy 2:3).

In Isaiah 45:23 God says, "to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear", and the same thing is said about Jesus in the New Testament:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)

If Jesus is not God, then it would be blasphemous to attribute to Him that which can only be attributed to God.

There are many more statements in both the Old Testament and the New Testament showing the Deity of Christ, but this is enough for now, because my realistic nature tells me it's pointless debating this with you. It will merely go way over your head. I only posted this for the benefit of others.

 

[theefaith]

I didn't even have to read your post carefully without seeing you quoting half a verse to support your view, when quoting the full verse would not have supported your view. Also, some of the very scriptures you quote referring to God the Father are applied to Jesus also in the New Testament.

It's quite obvious to me that you don't understand the Trinity, which is why you argue against it .

There are key scriptures which are attributed to God the Father and Jesus equally. Here are some, which I'm only pasting for the benefit of others who may read this, because I realize already that like those who will merely continue to find evidence that the earth is flat and attempt to discredit all evidence to the contrary, you will merely continue to do the same with regard to the Trinity (I say that without prejudice, but only from a position of realism).

God the Father and Jesus the Messiah are called both "God" and "Savior" in the Bible.

"You are My witnesses, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, I am the LORD; and there is none to save besides Me. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shown, when there was no strange god among you; therefore you are My witnesses, says the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was, I am He; and no one delivers out of My hand; I will work, and who will reverse it?" (Isaiah 43:10-13)

"Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, escaped ones of the nations; those who set up the wood of their graven image, and those that pray to a god that cannot save. They know nothing. Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. He says, Only in the LORD do I have righteousness and strength; even to Him he comes. And they are ashamed, all who are angry with Him. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." (Isaiah 45:20-25).

"And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47). "Grace mercy and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." (Titus 1:4b).

The passage in which the above verse (Titus 1:4b) is found, begins,

"Paul, a servant of God (Greek: θεός theós) and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's (Greek: θεός theós) elect, in the acknowledging of the truth which is according to godliness on hope of eternal life, which God (Greek: θεός theós), who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times, but revealed in its own times in a proclamation of His word, with which I was entrusted by the command of God (Greek: θεός theós) our Savior,

to Titus, a true child according to our common faith. Grace mercy and peace from God (Greek: θεός theós) the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." (Titus 1:1-4).

God our Savior, Christ our Savior.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior" (1 Timothy 2:3).

In Isaiah 45:23 God says, "to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear", and the same thing is said about Jesus in the New Testament:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)

If Jesus is not God, then it would be blasphemous to attribute to Him that which can only be attributed to God.

There are many more statements in both the Old Testament and the New Testament showing the Deity of Christ, but this is enough for now, because my realistic nature tells me it's pointless debating this with you. It will merely go way over your head. I only posted this for the benefit of others.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[theefaith]

Good post but wrangler will ignor it I’m sure!

his dogma is more important than scripture

 

[Zao is life]

So what is your point? That you are in the true light and I'm in true darkness on this matter? If that is the case you will have to convince me you are in fact in the true light. Your post does not suggest this at all.

How did you come into the light and remain there FG?

APAK

I think you've forgotten that it's you who first claimed that you are in the true light and whoever disagrees with you is in darkness. Mybe not in the same words, but still meaning the same thing:

Either get rid of, or ignore major core portions of scripture that do not support its reality, and/or recreate/introduce/inject new trinity-like meanings in major portions of scripture.

I thought you already tried all this anyway and failed in this mission? Are you trying to do it all over again hoping for a different and more positive result?

By now you must realize it cannot be defended based solely on scripture. So now you have appealed to a wider audience for assistance?

Good luck with it.

I recommend you install the trinity-free virus scripture mindware and give yourself a long cold reboot. You might think a miracle occurred when you get back online. You might even understand scripture more clearly and write commentaries for once in your life. Who know how far you could go....APAK

Do you see how your arguments are devoid of any substance? Claiming that everyone who does not agree with you is walking around in darkness.. using my words or your words, it's the same thing. Makes what you say as true as the earth is flat.

 

[Zao is life]

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Fills the heart and mind of the believer with praise and worship. And we know it's the Holy Spirit who testifies to our hearts and minds of the truth of it, who is also the One that produces the praise and the worship to well up from deep within us. Pray for those who don't see, but don't lose any sleep over them.

 

[Wrangler]

I didn't even have to read your post carefully without seeing you quoting half a verse to support your view, when quoting the full verse would not have supported your view. Also, some of the very scriptures you quote referring to God the Father are applied to Jesus also in the New Testament.

That is not true at all. I quoted the relevant part of the verse, which is about God, who alone is the Father. (Note the use of single quotes)

I know you are desperate to find a distraction, 'For us, there is one God, the Father.' To this, you attempt to distract. I get it. I'll leave you to defend the indefensible.

 

[APAK]

I think you've forgotten that it's you who first claimed that you are in the true light and whoever disagrees with you is in darkness. Mybe not in the same words, but still meaning the same thing:

Do you see how your arguments are devoid of any substance? Claiming that everyone who does not agree with you is walking around in darkness.. using my words or your words, it's the same thing. Makes what you say as true as the earth is flat.

After 17 days and you still never answered my questions. Must have not been too important to you.

You just continue on with your obfuscating rants. So again I ask you very clearly, why do you think you are in the true light? If you cannot answer this question, I presume as a true believer then your posts to me are not to be taken seriously.

Yes I DO believe I'm in the TRUE light with true faith. How say ye then?

 

[theefaith]

After 17 days and you still never answered my questions. Must have not been too important to you.

You just continue on with your obfuscating rants. So again I ask you very clearly, why do you think you are in the true light? If you cannot answer this question, I presume as a true believer then your posts to me are not to be taken seriously.

Yes I DO believe I'm in the TRUE light with true faith. How say ye then?

question for apak:
Is Christ our savior?
Is Christ eternal?

 

[Zao is life]

That is not true at all. I quoted the relevant part of the verse, which is about God, who alone is the Father. (Note the use of single quotes) I know you are desperate to find a distraction, 'For us, there is one God, the Father.' To this, you attempt to distract. I get it. I'll leave you to defend the indefensible.

'For us, there is one God, the Father'
1 Corinthians 8:6

You only quoted half the verse. My eye caught you quoting half a verse in support of your fallacy immediately, because you highlighted the post in color, and enlarged it. The scripture says,

1 Corinthians 8
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And it appears in the context of comparing idols to God:

1 Corinthians 8
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You have been caught out copying and pasting only half a verse in support of your fallacy.

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

"For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do." (Isaiah 55;10-11).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:1-4).

Jesus is the Word of God who became flesh. The Word of God has existed from everlasting, before all creation:

Proverbs 8:22-36:
"The LORD possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was anointed from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth ever was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no springs heavy with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I travailed; before He had made the earth, or the fields or the highest part of the dust of the world.

When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep; when He set the clouds above; when He made the strong fountains of the deep; when He gave to the sea its limit that the waters should not pass His command; when He appointed the foundations of the earth; and I was a workman at His side; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; rejoicing in the world, His earth; and My delight was with the sons of men.

And now listen to Me, O sons; for blessed are those who keep My ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and do not refuse it. Blessed is the man who hears Me, watching daily at My gates, waiting at the posts of My doors. For whoever finds Me finds life, and shall obtain favor from the LORD. But he who sins against Me wrongs his own soul; all who hate Me love death."

"And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth." (John 1:14).

 

[Zao is life]

After 17 days and you still never answered my questions. Must have not been too important to you.

You just continue on with your obfuscating rants. So again I ask you very clearly, why do you think you are in the true light? If you cannot answer this question, I presume as a true believer then your posts to me are not to be taken seriously.

Yes I DO believe I'm in the TRUE light with true faith. How say ye then?

Jesus is the only true light and those who are in Him through faith in Him are in the light:

John 3
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You are either walking in the light, or stumbling around in the darkness (as you are). Only God is light. Jesus is God in the flesh. The Word of God is the expression of the true God, and is light.

John 14
10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

John 8
12 Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 9
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

 

[APAK]

Jesus is the only true light and those who are in Him through faith in Him are in the light:

John 3
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You are either walking in the light, or stumbling around in the darkness (as you are). Only God is light. Jesus is God in the flesh. The Word of God is the expression of the true God, and is light.

John 14
10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

John 8
12 Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 9
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Well said and there can be added more of course ...thanks for your feedback

 

[theefaith]

1 Corinthians 8
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

AND that means both are God!

is Jesus savior?

is Jesus eternal?

when you ever gonna answer?
Apak wrangler etc.

 

[Brakelite]

1 Corinthians 8
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

AND that means both are God!

is Jesus savior?

is Jesus eternal?

when you ever gonna answer?
Apak wrangler etc.

Those questions weren't the basis of John's arguments in refuting the heresies of God day. John's gospel and his 3 letters were written to give evidence of the deity of Christ, not because He was eternal, nor because He is Savior, but because He was God's Son. I could even ask a question of you. Because you believe Jesus is eternal, how is He God's Son?

It's quite obvious to me that you don't understand the Trinity

Does anyone?

 

[Zao is life]

Does anyone?

No, but that is no reason to ignore the many statements in the Bible which prove Jesus is God, but not the Father, and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

The word Trinity does not even appear in the Bible - but the theology is derived from the Bible and nothing but the Bible. It's derived by simply taking the Word of God for what it says. We don't have to fully understand God, and we can't - but we can believe Him.

 

[theefaith]

Those questions weren't the basis of John's arguments in refuting the heresies of God day. John's gospel and his 3 letters were written to give evidence of the deity of Christ, not because He was eternal, nor because He is Savior, but because He was God's Son. I could even ask a question of you. Because you believe Jesus is eternal, how is He God's Son?

Does anyone?

it is a mystery
But mysteries are still true

Christ is eternally begotten son of God

why not answer these questions

is christ the savior?

is Christ eternal?

 

[Zao is life]

it is a mystery
But mysteries are still true

Christ is eternally begotten son of God

why not answer these questions

is christ the savior?

is Christ eternal?

Yep. He is the Word of God who exists from everlasting, from before all created things. Only God exists from everlasting, from before all created things. And Jesus created all things and all things are sustained or upheld (phérō) in Him (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:17).

 

[Brakelite]

it is a mystery
But mysteries are still true

Christ is eternally begotten son of God

why not answer these questions

is christ the savior?

is Christ eternal?

The thing is, it was God, and not us, that adopted the Father/Son motif as a descriptive for the relationship within the Godhead, with the full understanding of how we as humans would understand that concept. A father begets a child. It is an act of generation. So God knew that when we read,
KJV John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

KJV John 1:14, 18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God knew how we would understand that weird begotten, and inspired John to use that specific word as a refutation against many heresies that were becoming prevalent at that time. God begot a Son. We know that this was before they incarnation, because he sent this Son into our world to represent the Father and accomplish the plan of salvation which they agreed upon together before creation. So how can a Son be eternal when it was Jesus Himself, the Son of God, who said He was begotten of the Father in the most highest sense?

 

[theefaith]

The thing is, it was God, and not us, that adopted the Father/Son motif as a descriptive for the relationship within the Godhead, with the full understanding of how we as humans would understand that concept. A father begets a child. It is an act of generation. So God knew that when we read,
KJV John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

KJV John 1:14, 18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God knew how we would understand that weird begotten, and inspired John to use that specific word as a refutation against many heresies that were becoming prevalent at that time. God begot a Son. We know that this was before they incarnation, because he sent this Son into our world to represent the Father and accomplish the plan of salvation which they agreed upon together before creation. So how can a Son be eternal when it was Jesus Himself, the Son of God, who said He was begotten of the Father in the most highest sense?

eternally begotten

answer the questions

 

[Brakelite]

eternally begotten

Yeah. That's what the creeds say. In other words, the son isn't a son. God didn't beget a son, but who you call a son was according to you there all along... In other words, 'eternal'. That answers one question. Except that it's a lot deeper than that. Are you familiar with Daniel 2? Remember how the rock was cut out of the mountain and destroyed all the kingdoms of the world? That Rock is Christ. (Not Peter) . The mountain isa symbol of His Father, The Son is comprised of eternal attributes just as is the Father, but as a personality was begotten at some stage in eternity. Get that?
And of course He's our Savior.

 

[theefaith]

Yeah. That's what the creeds say. In other words, the son isn't a son. God didn't beget a son, but who you call a son was according to you there all along... In other words, 'eternal'. That answers one question. Except that it's a lot deeper than that. Are you familiar with Daniel 2? Remember how the rock was cut out of the mountain and destroyed all the kingdoms of the world? That Rock is Christ. (Not Peter) . The mountain isa symbol of His Father, The Son is comprised of eternal attributes just as is the Father, but as a personality was begotten at some stage in eternity. Get that?
And of course He's our Savior.

then he must be God Lk 1:47

our savior is God

and eternal

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.