How many kingdoms in Daniel?

[Douggg]

Daniel mentions twice the exact number of kingdoms... there is absolutely no mention of a 5th or 6th, etc.

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

The fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire.

The fifth kingdom is the Kingdom of God.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The stone cut without (human) hands striking the feet of the statue of the four kingdoms is the Kingdom of God - as it says in the verse 44 above (highlighted in blue).

The fifth kingdom is also in Daniel 7:27, the Kingdom of God.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

So there are five kingdoms in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7.

 

[CTK]

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

The fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire.

The fifth kingdom is the Kingdom of God.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The stone cut without (human) hands striking the feet of the statue of the four kingdoms is the Kingdom of God - as it says in the verse 44 above (highlighted in blue).

The fifth kingdom is also in Daniel 7:27, the Kingdom of God.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

So there are five kingdoms in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7.

There are only 4 kingdoms that come out of the earth or the sea. God's kingdom does not come out of either. The Book of Daniel is all about the restoration of His people and mankind of the earth. I am mentioned many times that Jesus came to fulfill His God given requirements (His mission found in 9:24), and "set up" His kingdom / church, which will be consumated on His return.

 

[Douggg]

There are only 4 kingdoms that come out of the earth or the sea. God's kingdom does not come out of either.

I think a better way to phrase it is that there are only 4 kingdoms of men in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 and 1 Kingdom of God.

You should acknowledge that of all the kingdoms in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, that God's Kingdom is the bottom line.

The Book of Daniel is all about the restoration of His people and mankind of the earth.

The Book of Daniel is about many things.

 

[CTK]

“As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. ”
Daniel 7:12 KJV

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Ok, I will try and continue to respond to the rest of your comments....

This verse specifically relates to the "rest of the beasts." When pagan Rome conquered the world, they would essentially assimilate these cultures within the Roman Empire. What they did not destroy, they controlled with an iron fist. Thus, the first 3 beast kingdoms, what was left of them, their people, etc., would continue until the end of time but they would never again regain their former power. They would never have dominion over any part of the world as they once had... their mission within God's plan of salvation was over and the focus is only on the 4th beast kingdom.

...as a united spiritual power of the last days and a composite of those four pagan empires. That final structure, the sea beast of Revelation 13, the mixture of clay and iron, is the union of church and state, Babylon riding the beast, today seeking rulership over the world. She will, along with the remnants of pagan philosophy and error, be destroyed utterly at the second coming.

Sorry, I have not studied Revelation, however, through Daniel, it is clear the 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome headed by the little horn will continue until God destroys him without human hands. But once again, you will have mention of the characteristics of the first 3 beast kingdoms in Revelation because they were not destroyed by pagan Rome, they would be folded in to their kingdom, and of course, when the Christian church (papal Rome) came to power, they would go out to all parts of the world converting anyone or everyone they could to the Roman Catholic Church. And it is not difficult to see just how destructive and murderous they were during the Inquisition and the Crusades - in Daniel, God prophecised it (4th beast kingdom of clay and iron - Christian church) would have "iron within it." They would take advantage of any military power at their disposal to ensure their brand of Christianity was followed.

“Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ”
Daniel 2:35 KJV

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I mentioned earlier that 2:34 represented the coming of the Messiah while 2:35 represented the second coming when He would bring in the "harvest." If you look at the order of materials in 2:35 of the "dream sequence," you will see the "clay" is listed adjacent to the iron.

35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found.


But when you get to verse 2:45 of the "interpretation sequence" verses, you will note the following:

45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.

In the "interpretation sequence" verses related to the end time harvest, the "clay"is no longer adjacent to the iron. It is now in the middle of the 4 metal types. This provides a more detailed picture of the end time harvest when symbolically, the "clay" will not be symbolically placed on the threshing floor normally made of hardened earth or stone, but it is now placed on the threshing floor of the two hardest metals beneath them. Now, God will place those pieces of "clay" (ceramic clay - both Jew and Gentile) that had not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Now, only that type of clay is destroyed, crushed and thrown into the wind forever. Aslo, I believe this also symbolizes that the "clay" which was encased within the feet of pagan Rome before the first coming of the Messiah, is now shown quite separately as though each piece of clay is to be judged on an individual basis. There is no safegy or salvation should one belong to the iron, bronze, silver or gold symbolic nations of the world. Regardless of the church denomination, organization or nation one belongs to and has joined in their worshipping practice, it has no meaning to His judgement - if you are found to be "ceramic clay" (rejected the Messiah) you will indeed be standing alone to be judged.


Look forward to your thoughts for this and the previous comments on Chapter 2. And this is just a small part of the Chapter 2 commentary. I have not revealed the 10 toes / 10 horns / 10 kings, identities because that is really a very different discussion and I have found it is just too difficult to comment on the number of beast kingdoms of 4 .... that was a no brainer... yet there are so many end time interpretations and more than a few that contend there is more than 4.

 

[Brakelite]

The second beast in Revelation 13 is the false prophet, not a nation.

It will be a false prophet when a fallen protestant church unites with the state to create an image to the medieval papal Church state union that trampled on the rights of conscience for over 1000 years. That's what Revelation 13 second part is all about. It isn't about an individual speaking lies about God. Take note of the language. It's about a beast...a mirror image of the first beast which is the papacy, a union of church and state, and this false prophet acts on concert with the Antichrist to reinstate that system as a global dominant tyrannical exerting its power by using the state to enforce its doctrines over worship. That image to the beast is forming now.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 2 is not prophesying the arrival of so-called papal Rome.

The little horn and the 2300 days, not years, associated with him is time of the end. Daniel 8:13-17.

The little horn person will be destroyed not by (human) hand, Daniel 8:25. But by the Prince of princes - Jesus - when the little horn attempts to stand-up, i.e. make war against him. Which is exactly what is in Revelation 19 regarding the beast-king.

 

[Brakelite]

First, the "Stone" in 2:34 is indeed the Messiah, but unlike EVERYONE'S interpretation, this represents Jesus at His first coming. He is the One that is only referred to as the "Stone." God the Father, in Daniel, is never referredt to as the "Stone." He is referred to as the "Ancient of Days," or the "Mountain," (Stone cut out of the Mountain).

I'm not going to write a book in response. In fact, with all due respect to your beliefs, I didn't read beyond the above. For 2 reasons.
First, Christ's first coming did not destroy any of those powers, in fact, He studiously avoided confronting Rome altogether.
Second, you have inserted, even in this first paragraph, a straw man...quote...God the Father, in Daniel, is never referred to as the "Stone."
I never suggested otherwise. I don't see the point in continuing of your method of discussion is so hopelessly presented.

 

[Douggg]

It will be a false prophet when a fallen protestant church unites with the state to create an image to the medieval papal Church state union that trampled on the rights of conscience for over 1000 years.

Not "it" but "he". The text of Revelation 13:11-18 uses the pronoun "he". The first beast - represents both a kingdom and it's king. The beast-king and the second beast are both men. The false prophet is a person.

That person will do miracles, such as calling fire down from heaven.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Both the beast-king and false prophet men will be cast alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, I have not studied Revelation,

A person cannot understand Daniel without studying Revelation. I think what you are really saying is that you cannot make your interpretations of certain (limited) chapters of the book of Daniel agree with what is written in Revelation.

You wrote the same thing to me, "Sorry, I have not studied Revelation" a couple of weeks ago. You are how old - and not yet studied Revelation ?

Look at my age. I am 75. I have studied eschatology intensely for over 50 years. What you are writing about so-called pagan Rome and so-called papal Rome, is SDA and historist interpretations - both wrong.

Daniel 2, the emphasis is on the Kingdom of God. Jesus said in Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

The four human kingdoms are not the focus - but the arrival of the Kingdom of God to have dominion over the nations of the world.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[ewq1938]

It isn't about an individual speaking lies about God.

The FP is definitely a single person in Rev 13.

 

[ewq1938]

Both the beast-king and false prophet men will be cast alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The text does not say "beast king" because the first beast is a kingdom not a person. You are making the same error brakelite is just with the other beast. An individual isn't a kingdom, nor is a kingdom an individual.

The first beast is a kingdom just like Daniel's ten horned beast is a kingdom.
The second beast is an individual not a kingdom or institution.

 

[Douggg]

The text does not say "beast king" because the first beast is a kingdom not a person. You are making the same error brakelite is just with the other beast. An individual isn't a kingdom, nor is a kingdom an individual.

The mortally wounded, but healed head is the beast-king. In Revelation 17:10-11, there are 7 kings, the beast is the eighth, having been one of the seven, that when the seventh comes, he (a man) will continue a short space, it says - i.e continue the 42 months of Revelation 13:5. "continue" is in both Revelation 17:10 and Revelation 13:5. kjv

In Revelation 17:18, the ten kings hand their kingdom (the EU) over to the beast - to be dictator of it, thus become the beast-king over that time of the end manifestation of the Roman Empire.

In Revelation 13:18, the number of the beast is the number of a man.

So the beast in coming out of the sea is a kingdom. But the ruler of that kingdom will be the beast-king, a man.

 

[ewq1938]

The mortally wounded, but healed head is the beast-king.

No, the heads are areas of land where horns/kings have kingdoms.

In Revelation 17:10-11, there are 7 kings, the beast is the eighth, having been one of the seven, that when the seventh comes, he (a man) will continue a short space, it says - i.e continue the 42 months of Revelation 13:5. "continue" is in both Revelation 17:10 and Revelation 13:5. kjv

In Revelation 17:18, the ten kings hand their kingdom (the EU) over to the beast - to be dictator of it, thus become the beast-king over that time of the end manifestation of the Roman Empire.

In Revelation 13:18, the number of the beast is the number of a man.

So the beast in coming out of the sea is a kingdom. But the ruler of that kingdom will be the beast-king, a man.

And that ruler is the false prophet, Rev 13:12

 

[Douggg]

No, the heads are areas of land where horns/kings have kingdoms.





And that ruler is the false prophet, Rev 13:12

The heads are said to be kings in Revelation 17:10

The one head on the beast out of the sea, has the mouth of a lion, speaking great things and blasphemies, Revelation 13:5

The false prophet is never called a king in Revelation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't understand what you mean that the 4th kingdom lasts now for over 2300 years? Please help me with this....
I do not see in Daniel nor in any other book of the Scriptures (including Revelation) there is such a literal character as an "anti-Christ" figure. There definitiely is the "spirit" of the anti-Christ, but that is anyone preaching a different gospel and agains the Word of God. The mythical / literal anti-Christ figure was created by the Jesuits in the 16th century (time of the Reformation) and they developed the grossly unscriptural 7 years tribulation theory where they took the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (that belongs exclusively to the Messiah) and threw it some 2000 years into the future.

Antichrist is a title that comes from the John:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

biblically he has many titles. The beast, man of lawlessness, the eleventh horn, etc.

Rome was taken over by Papal Rome. The four kingdoms are p[olitical entities and not a religious entity that has some political oomph.

Using the visions of Daniel with the Statue and the four beasts we see this of the fourth kingdom:

1. The united stage (imperial Rome)
2. the divided stage (2 legs) The empire when it broke into two with Rome and Constantinople as the capitols. this divvied stage of imperialism is still in effect.

In the East it was in Constantinople until c. 15th century when the rulers there fled to Russia and set up Rule there. Czar is a derivative of Cesar.

In the West it moved from Rome to the Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic tribe, then the HRE of the Frankish nations, then the HRE of the Spanish nation, ands from there it has moved to Britain and the US. Prior to Hitler Germn rulers were called Kaisers which is a derivative of Cesar.

After this comes the one world government stage of Daniel 7then the ten toes/ten horn stage and finally the Beast stage

 

[CTK]

Antichrist is a title that comes from the John:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

biblically he has many titles. The beast, man of lawlessness, the eleventh horn, etc.

Rome was taken over by Papal Rome. The four kingdoms are p[olitical entities and not a religious entity that has some political oomph.

Using the visions of Daniel with the Statue and the four beasts we see this of the fourth kingdom:

1. The united stage (imperial Rome)
2. the divided stage (2 legs) The empire when it broke into two with Rome and Constantinople as the capitols. this divvied stage of imperialism is still in effect.

In the East it was in Constantinople until c. 15th century when the rulers there fled to Russia and set up Rule there. Czar is a derivative of Cesar.

In the West it moved from Rome to the Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic tribe, then the HRE of the Frankish nations, then the HRE of the Spanish nation, ands from there it has moved to Britain and the US. Prior to Hitler Germn rulers were called Kaisers which is a derivative of Cesar.

After this comes the one world government stage of Daniel 7then the ten toes/ten horn stage and finally the Beast stage

Thank you.

 

[ewq1938]

The heads are said to be kings in Revelation 17:10

Yes but the manuscripts translations like the KJV are based upon do not say that and rightly so because the heads all exist at the same time while the 7 kings exist one at a time over a long time. Obviously they cannot be the same things.

The one head on the beast out of the sea, has the mouth of a lion, speaking great things and blasphemies, Revelation 13:5

It doesn't single out any one head but is speaking of the entire beast speaking. It's a metaphorical mouth of a global kingdom not a person.

The false prophet is never called a king in Revelation.

That isn't evidence of anything. Rev doesn't call anyone "antichrist" either but the AC is very much found in Rev. The FP is said to wield all the power of the first beast. He is the ruler of the beast kingdom and the mark is his mark and based on his own name.

 

[Douggg]

That isn't evidence of anything. Rev doesn't call anyone "antichrist" either but the AC is very much found in Rev.

In Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse given a crown is referring to the person as the Antichrist.

But in Revelation 13, the person is no longer the Antichrist but has become the beast-king.

In Revelation 17:10, of the seven kings, king seven who was yet to come at the time of John is referring to person in his little horn stage. The little horn person will be leader over ten EU leaders .

In Revelation 17:10 it says...
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The same language is used in Revelation 13:5....

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

------------------------------------------------------

The five stages the person goes through are...

1. little horn - leader over a panel of ten EU leaders (king 7 of Revelation 17:10)

2. the prince that shall come - following the Gog/Magog event.

3. the Antichrist - perceived King of Israel messiah, initiates the 7 years

4. the revealed man of sin - 2Thessalonians2:4

5. the beast king - dictator over the EU (king 8 of Revelation 17:11), for the last 42 months of the 7 years.

 

[ewq1938]

In Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse given a crown is referring to the person as the Antichrist.

So do you admit that the FP is a king even if not specifically called by that exact term?

 

[Douggg]

So do you admit that the FP is a king even if not specifically called by that exact term?

No. I wrote that the Antichrist is in Revelation 6 as the rider on the white horse given a crown. But in Revelation 13, he has become the beast-king, no longer the Antichrist - perceived King of Israel messiah.


The five stages the person goes through are...

1. little horn - leader over a panel of ten EU leaders (king 7 of Revelation 17:10)

2. the prince that shall come - following the Gog/Magog event.

3. the Antichrist - perceived King of Israel messiah, initiates the 7 years. The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6

4. the revealed man of sin - 2Thessalonians2:4

5. the beast king - dictator over the EU (king 8 of Revelation 17:11), for the last 42 months of the 7 years in Revelation 13.

The EU will become the kingdom of the beast. And will control the oil rich territories once part of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek empires in the middle east..