How many kingdoms in Daniel?

[ewq1938]

Greetings again ewq1938,

I have read ALL your posts. In this thread there are many new and unusual views presented, and this includes some strange ideas from others as well as yours. I consider it more beneficial to state in simple terms what I consider to be the clear teaching of the Bible, rather than attempting to unravel strange ideas and thinking based on shallow and faulty reasoning.

Kind regards
Trevor

Daniel's 4th kingdom wasn't Roman because that 4th kingdom is destroyed by a coming of God but Rome did not end in that way.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Davy]

Greetings Davy,

Where does it say that the Antichrist is Jewish.

That is easily understood by Jesus' Olivet discourse warning... in Matt.24:23-26, which is about a singular Antichrist. Dr. James Strong even defined that word in the Greek for "false Christs" instead in the singular, as "a spurious Messiah" (NT:5580 with pseudochristos). That whole Matt.24:23-26 section of verse is Jesus warning about the coming of a false-MESSIAH. And what Jew doesn't know... the MESSIAH prophecy by the Old Testament prophet like Isaiah is about one born of the tribe of JUDAH?

Early Church fathers like Hippolytus of Rome (c.170 A.D.), well understood this fact of Bible prophecy that Messiah is Jewish per Bible Scripture:

"6. Now, as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of His royalty and glory, in the same way have the Scriptures also aforetime spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Saviour was manifested as a lamb; so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Saviour came into the World in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Saviour gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him, and he will give one like manner. The Saviour appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Saviour raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. And his seductive arts we shall exhibit in what follows. But for the present let us turn to the question in hand." (from Hippolytus of Rome: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist (Roberts-Donaldson translation))​

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[Davy]

The little horn of Daniel 7 is attached to the fourth Kingdom, the Roman, and it persecuted the faithful including the Huguenots (massacre of Saint Bartholomew's Day) for 1260 years, from AD 569-573 Justinian to 1879-1883 the French Revolution, and AD 610 Pepin-1870 when it lost its three Papal States mentioned in Daniel 7.

Sounds a lot like you've been taught men's doctrines of either Preterism or Historicism, which both have inconsistent doctrines that do not align with God's Word.

You have failed to read and understand Daniel 2:34-35 about the final FIFTH BEAST of ten toes of the feet of iron mixed with clay. That Scripture reveals 5 pieces of the beast statue for the 'end', not 4. For the end of this world, ALL the previous beast empires will manifest under that 5th beast of the feet of iron and clay, as it is about today's forming up of a "one world government". That will be the beast kingdom shown in Revelation 13:1. It is not about Rome, even though they will be deceived by the Antichrist in Jerusalem also.

Dan 7:19-23
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

We are warned by Lord Jesus in His Book of Revelation about those ten horns that only come to power with the beast king ("little horn") for "one hour", and they will give their power to that beast king (Rev.17). Those are signs for the very end of this world, NOT back in history.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

That warning about the Antichrist's future war with the saints is also a warning about the end given by Lord Jesus in His Revelation (see Rev.11:7; Rev.13:4-8). That's a future "great tribulation" event for the final generation that will see Christ's coming in the clouds.

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
KJV

Some try to claim that will be a revived Roman empire, simply because the piece of "iron" is mentioned again with the feet of part clay, and the "legs of iron" in Daniel 2 represented the old pagan Roman empire. Even though the Roman Church maybe deceived with some of its doctrines that have crept in, it still does not represent the old 'pagan' Roman empire, for that is a doctrine originating from false Jews. The 16th century Reformers (also French Huguenots) had a valid case in their ERA, but it did NOT pan out per Bible prophecy. The pope then was NOT the final Antichrist for the end, and Jesus' coming did NOT happen back then, which is prophesied for the time of the final Antichrist.

So it's actually silly to support today's pushing of the old reformer's doctrine of a pope as Antichrist. Just like the false pre-trib rapture theory that started in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby, likewise the Churches today pushing the old Reformation doctrines of a pope as Antichrist is simply old hat that some keep trying to latch onto, but is just brick mortar with no substance that will melt away with the slightest rain.

 

[covenantee]

That is easily understood by Jesus' Olivet discourse warning... in Matt.24:23-26, which is about a singular Antichrist. Dr. James Strong even defined that word in the Greek for "false Christs" instead in the singular, as "a spurious Messiah" (NT:5580 with pseudochristos). That whole Matt.24:23-26 section of verse is Jesus warning about the coming of a false-MESSIAH. And what Jew doesn't know... the MESSIAH prophecy by the Old Testament prophet like Isaiah is about one born of the tribe of JUDAH?

Early Church fathers like Hippolytus of Rome (c.170 A.D.), well understood this fact of Bible prophecy that Messiah is Jewish per Bible Scripture:

"6. Now, as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of His royalty and glory, in the same way have the Scriptures also aforetime spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Saviour was manifested as a lamb; so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Saviour came into the World in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Saviour gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him, and he will give one like manner. The Saviour appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Saviour raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. And his seductive arts we shall exhibit in what follows. But for the present let us turn to the question in hand." (from Hippolytus of Rome: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist (Roberts-Donaldson translation))​

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Noticeably absent are any quotes from Scripture by Hippolytus supporting his claims.

In particular, quotes from John's epistles, which are the sole references to, and definitions of, antichrists in the Scriptures.

Thus, Hippolytus' claims are no more than spurious private interpretations.

 

[Davy]

The Jewish Antichrist concept was invented by a Jesuit to deflect attention away from the RCC and this concept as well as Futurism is very popular among Evangelicals today. Many and possibly including many Evangelicals will oppose Jesus when he comes to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth centred in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.

Well, I've already proven that the Jesuits did not... create the idea of the coming of a Jewish Antichrist, by what Hippolytus said in the 2nd century A.D. The Jesuit Order wasn't even created until 1540 A.D. by Loyola.

Nor did the Jesuits create the concept of a false pre-trib rapture theory, which actually came from pastors in 1800's Great Britain that took Margaret McDonald's dream and misunderstood it. And then the British preacher John Darby in 1830's Britain became the first preacher in a Christian Church to preach it to a Christian congregation. After that, the doctrine was presented by Cyrus Scofield in his Scofield Reference Bible. (see Dave MacPherson's The Rapture Plot)

Then seminaries based on man's false Preterism and Historicism began using the term "Futurism" to apply to those denominations pushing the false pre-trib rapture theory, a term you used, which whether you know it or not, helps identity your support of either man's false Preterist doctrines or Historicists doctrine.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Davy,

So it's actually silly to support today's pushing of the old reformer's doctrine of a pope as Antichrist.

Yes, I am a historicist and I still support the idea that the Little Horn of the Fourth Roman Beast of Daniel 7 is the Papacy and I consider that the Papacy is the Antichrist who will oppose Christ when Christ returns and when Christ begins to establish the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem. I consider that this opposition will commence AFTER the Battle of Armageddon Ezekiel 38, Revelation 16:12-16. Who do you consider to be the Little Horn of the Fourth Beast in Daniel 7?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jay Ross]

Where does it say that the Antichrist is Jewish.

The Antichrist is a wicked fallen heavenly host and as such the Antichrist has no "human form." This is a false teaching from the time of the reformation fathers.

Shalom

 

[covenantee]

The Antichrist is a wicked fallen heavenly host and as such the Antichrist has no "human form." This is a false teaching from the time of the reformation fathers.

Shalom

Provide a verbatim quote, source, and date of any Reformation Father claiming that the Antichrist is Jewish.

 

[covenantee]

So it's actually silly to support today's pushing of the old reformer's doctrine of a pope as Antichrist.

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. The Reformers who responded to God's call and liberated His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression.

Need a hint?

 

[Jay Ross]

Provide a verbatim quote, source, and date of any Reformation Father claiming that the Antichrist is Jewish.

Please note that I made no reference to any human being in my post. I made no claim that the Antichrist would be a human, but rather that the AC would be a wicked fallen heavenly host, i.e. an angel that has fallen and rebelled against God.

 

[covenantee]

Please note that I made no reference to any human being in my post. I made no claim that the Antichrist would be a human, but rather that the AC would be a wicked fallen heavenly host, i.e. an angel that has fallen and rebelled against God.

You stated "This is a false teaching from the time of the reformation fathers."

What and whose teaching?

 

[Jay Ross]

You stated "This is a false teaching from the time of the reformation fathers."

What and whose teaching?

Perhaps the SDA's teaching?

Perhaps it would be better if you provided any confirmation that what I have posted is false with respect to what the bible presents.

 

[covenantee]

Perhaps the SDA's teaching?

Perhaps it would be better if you provided any confirmation that what I have posted is false with respect to what the bible presents.

SDA did not exist until more than two centuries after the Reformation.

You made the claim.

You provide the confirmation.

 

[Jay Ross]

SDA did not exist until more than two centuries after the Reformation.

You made the claim.

You provide the confirmation.

Remember that I state that it was a false teaching from the time of the reformation fathers. Therefore, any teaching since the time of the reformation fathers which claims that the Antichrist will be a human person, is giving false teaching, whether it is the SDA or any other denomination or cult.

bye

 

[covenantee]

Remember that I state that it was a false teaching from the time of the reformation fathers. Therefore, any teaching since the time of the reformation fathers which claims that the Antichrist will be a human person, is giving false teaching, whether it is the SDA or any other denomination or cult.

bye

Yes, it was so false that it led to the liberation of the True Church from the spiritual darkness and oppression of the antichrist of the apostate papacy.

 

[Douggg]

The Jewish Antichrist concept was invented by a Jesuit to deflect attention away from the RCC and this concept as well as Futurism is very popular among Evangelicals today.

Not hardly. The Jesuits did not convince the Jews (Judaism) to be looking for their messiah - someone other than Jesus.

The Jewish Antichrist concept comes from the Jews rejection of Jesus as their King of Israel messiah.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

[Douggg]

Remember that I state that it was a false teaching from the time of the reformation fathers. Therefore, any teaching since the time of the reformation fathers which claims that the Antichrist will be a human person, is giving false teaching, whether it is the SDA or any other denomination or cult.

bye

Jay, the Jews (Judaism) are looking for a Jew to become their King of Israel messiah. They do that as fundamental to their religion. To be a Jew - according to the religion of Judaism - is that a person's mother has to be Jew. The person will be a human, not some evil angel.

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, it was so false that it led to the liberation of the True Church from the spiritual darkness and oppression of the antichrist of the apostate papacy.

So, you are also showing that you believe that the Antichrist will be a human being and not a wicked fallen heavenly host as I am suggesting based on my understanding of the scriptures.

Oh well, you have shown your true colours now.

Bye, as I am not interested in continuing this conversation with you.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, the Jews (Judaism) are looking for a Jew to become their King of Israel messiah. They do that as fundamental to their religion. To be a Jew - according to the religion of Judaism - is that a person's mother has to be Jew. The person will be a human, not some evil angel.

Bye to you too, as you show that you have no understanding of the scriptures.

 

[Douggg]

Bye to you too, as you show that you have not understanding of the scriptures.

Jay, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of siting in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4, God will have the revealed man of sin killed.

That account is in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.