How is death and hades cast into the lake of fire, the same thing as death being destroyed in 1st Corinthians 15?

[BrutalCross]

everyone I've ever come across that talk about these passages take them as the same event.

13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:13-14

And

24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 cor 15:24-25

from first glace these seem pretty harmonious, Paul says death will be destroyed, and John seas death and hades done away with, but upon further examination, how Paul defines the destruction of death is much different than John does. verses 54-55 reads

54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55“O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

so Paul defines the destruction of death as when our mortal flesh PUTS ON immortality, to further make this clear, Paul in 2 Cor 5:4 says:

4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

So death is supposed to be swallowed up by Life, Yet in Rev 20 Death and hades are swallowed by the lake of fire, which is also called the second death, a place everyone goes that doesn't have their names in the book of life, if these are identical then the lake of fire should really be called "the lake of life" or "the lake of immortality", or "the second life" instead of the second death. Not only that but paul says this mortal PUTS ON immortality, so are we to put on the lake of fire? are we to put on hell? do we as Christians put on damnation? and if the lake of fire give immortality, then the beast, false prophet and dragon, and all judged at the white throne judgement are actually swallowed up by life, immortality and victory, I've concluded that if these are identical events then we have either

1. Universal salvation, the lake of fire gives life and immortality, all who are not written in the book of life are given life and victory. despite them not being Written in the lamb's book of life.

1. Or we have Univeral damnation including believers, putting on life, victory and immortality is actually putting on hell and damnation.

neither of these are plausible, especially 2. the only way out I see is these are not talking about the same event, but if these are not talking about the same event, then 1 cor 15 must come after Rev 20, because Paul said it's the LAST enemy to be defeated, therefore Rev 20 is not describing the end of everything, but 1 Cor 15 is. I consider myself a partial preterist that believes Revelation is about 70ad, for this reason I take this chapter as fulfilled as well, I just can't see these events as the same thing.

I've never seen anybody make this observation before, I would love some feedback, thanks

 

[Verily]

How might you be catching 1 Cr 15:56 (the verse not posted in the above)
and how it relates to 1 Cr 15:55 as far as "the sting" and "the law" there?

 

[Davy]

everyone I've ever come across that talk about these passages take them as the same event.

13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:13-14

And

24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 cor 15:24-25

from first glace these seem pretty harmonious, Paul says death will be destroyed, and John seas death and hades done away with, but upon further examination, how Paul defines the destruction of death is much different than John does. verses 54-55 reads

54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55“O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

so Paul defines the destruction of death as when our mortal flesh PUTS ON immortality, to further make this clear, Paul in 2 Cor 5:4 says:

4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

So death is supposed to be swallowed up by Life, Yet in Rev 20 Death and hades are swallowed by the lake of fire, which is also called the second death, a place everyone goes that doesn't have their names in the book of life, if these are identical then the lake of fire should really be called "the lake of life" or "the lake of immortality", or "the second life" instead of the second death. Not only that but paul says this mortal PUTS ON immortality, so are we to put on the lake of fire? are we to put on hell? do we as Christians put on damnation? and if the lake of fire give immortality, then the beast, false prophet and dragon, and all judged at the white throne judgement are actually swallowed up by life, immortality and victory, I've concluded that if these are identical events then we have either

1. Universal salvation, the lake of fire gives life and immortality, all who are not written in the book of life are given life and victory. despite them not being Written in the lamb's book of life.
2. Or we have Univeral damnation including believers, putting on life, victory and immortality is actually putting on hell and damnation.

neither of these are plausible, especially 2. the only way out I see is these are not talking about the same event, but if these are not talking about the same event, then 1 cor 15 must come after Rev 20, because Paul said it's the LAST enemy to be defeated, therefore Rev 20 is not describing the end of everything, but 1 Cor 15 is. I consider myself a partial preterist that believes Revelation is about 70ad, for this reason I take this chapter as fulfilled as well, I just can't see these events as the same thing.

I've never seen anybody make this observation before, I would love some feedback, thanks

Why are you not... staying within the context... of both Scripture examples?

In 1 Cor.15 with death swallowed up in victory, Paul is pointing to the change to the spirit body that will occur for all upon the day of Christ's future coming. Even the wicked dead will have the "spiritual body" which Paul mentioned there. Isaiah 25 is where Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up, as it applies to all nations at that point of Christ's future coming, not just Christ's Church.

What then is the difference between Christ's Church and the unsaved after... Jesus has returned? Simple, and Paul actually showed this difference in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54. The unsaved will still... be subject to the "SECOND DEATH".

What is that "SECOND DEATH"? Rev.20 defines it as being cast into the future "lake of fire" after Christ's future 1000 years reign. And that actually is the point when the concept of death is completely destroyed.

So we should not confuse the victory over FLESH DEATH that all will have when Jesus comes, with the final "SECOND DEATH" when death is completely destroyed after Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

 

[BrutalCross]

How might you be catching 1 Cr 15:56 (the verse not posted in the above)
and how it relates to 1 Cr 15:55 as far as "the sting" and "the law" there?

My take is that the sting of physical death comes from sin, as sin entered the world through adam, and I would argue that adam's death was both spiritual and physical, and the law exposes one's sin as paul points out in Rom 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

if death in 1 cor 15 is the old covenant as full preterists argue, then they face the same issue I'm bringing up, the "mortal" puts on "immortality", yet in Rev 20, the mortal gets cast into the lake of fire, so does the mortal put on the lake of fire? or is the lake of fire the lake of immortality?

 

[BrutalCross]

Why are you not... staying within the context... of both Scripture examples?

In 1 Cor.15 with death swallowed up in victory, Paul is pointing to the change to the spirit body that will occur for all upon the day of Christ's future coming. Even the wicked dead will have the "spiritual body" which Paul mentioned there. Isaiah 25 is where Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up, as it applies to all nations at that point of Christ's future coming, not just Christ's Church.

What then is the difference between Christ's Church and the unsaved after... Jesus has returned? Simple, and Paul actually showed this difference in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54. The unsaved will still... be subject to the "SECOND DEATH".

What is that "SECOND DEATH"? Rev.20 defines it as being cast into the future "lake of fire" after Christ's future 1000 years reign. And that actually is the point when the concept of death is completely destroyed.

So we should not confuse the victory over FLESH DEATH that all will have when Jesus comes, with the final "SECOND DEATH" when death is completely destroyed after Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

the second death is what destroys death in Rev 20:14
14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Paul says death is destroyed when this mortal puts on immortality, so when the wicked rise from the dead and put on immortality, how are they still subjected to the second death, when death and hades are destroyed by the second death? does the second death give immortality?

"What is that "SECOND DEATH"? Rev.20 defines it as being cast into the future "lake of fire" after Christ's future 1000 years reign. And that actually is the point when the concept of death is completely destroyed." what is the concept of death? Paul said this mortal will be swallowed up by life 2 Cor 5, and this mortal will put on immortality, this sounds like a concrete reality to me.

About Paul is quoting from Isaiah's little apocalypse which is not talking about the universal destruction of death as paul is
Is 25:6-8
6And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of [c]choice pieces,
A feast of [d]wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
7And He will destroy on this mountain
The surface of the covering cast over all people,
And the veil that is spread over all nations.
8He will swallow up death forever,
And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces;
The rebuke of His people
He will take away from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.

the death here is limited to ON THIS MOUNTAIN, this is talking about mount Zion which Hebrews confirms is the church

Hebrews 12:22-23
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven"

this is the new jerusalem that comes out of heaven in rev 21 the city with no death in it.

Yet Paul in 1 cor 15 is not talking about a city, but death going back to adam, so its universal flesh death here.

he is also taking from Hosea which is actually talking about the exact opposite of what he's talking about
Hosea 13:9-16
9I will destroy you, O Israel!

Who is there to help you?

10Where then is your king,

that he may save you in all your cities?

Where are your rulers for whom you asked, saying,

“Give me a king and princes”?

11I granted you a king in my anger,

and I will take him away in my wrath!

Israel’s Punishment Will Not Be Withheld Much Longer

12The punishment of Ephraim has been decreed;

his punishment is being stored up for the future.

13The labor pains of a woman will overtake him,

but the baby will lack wisdom;

when the time arrives,

he will not come out of the womb!

The Lord Will Not Relent from the Threatened Judgment

14Will I deliver them from the power of Sheol? No, I will not!

Will I redeem them from death? No, I will not!

O Death, bring on your plagues!

O Sheol, bring on your destruction!

My eyes will not show any compassion!

The Capital of the Northern Empire Will Be Destroyed

15Even though he flourishes like a reed plant,

a scorching east wind will come,

a wind from the Lord rising up from the desert.

As a result, his spring will dry up;

his well will become dry.

That wind will spoil all his delightful foods

in the containers in his storehouse.

16 Samaria will be held guilty,

because she rebelled against her God.

They will fall by the sword,

their infants will be dashed to the ground –

their pregnant women will be ripped open.

I think its best to take Paul's statement as independent, rather than giving a commentary on these OT passages, he could be utilizing pesher here.

I hope i clarified some things here, im seeing two different deaths, and the ones in 1 cor 15, 2 cor 5, cant be the same, rev is decribing a city, a nation, the church, yet paul is being cosmic and universal.

 

[Ziggy]

Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Hugs

 

[Verily]

Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Hugs

You believe God is the second death?

 

[Verily]

My take is that the sting of physical death comes from sin, as sin entered the world through adam, and I would argue that adam's death was both spiritual and physical, and the law exposes one's sin as paul points out in Rom 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

if death in 1 cor 15 is the old covenant as full preterists argue, then they face the same issue I'm bringing up, the "mortal" puts on "immortality", yet in Rev 20, the mortal gets cast into the lake of fire, so does the mortal put on the lake of fire? or is the lake of fire the lake of immortality?

I have no clue what to make of any of that

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

how Paul defines the destruction of death is much different than John does

Death and Hades are destroyed.
Define destruction: to put an end to, to the point of non-existance. Burn a piece of paper in the fire and what is the result? It turns into ashes and no longer exists. What do physical dead bodies that are cremated look like? Ashes.
Hades holds all the dead souls who rejected Christ and all those souls before Christ since the beginning who did not live by faith. Now you might say, souls are not physical. True. But God will resurrection those souls, and throw them in the fire.
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:29
These are reprobate. They will be destroyed and will not exist anymore; hence, Death will not exist, only LIFE IN CHRIST.

so Paul defines the destruction of death as when our mortal flesh PUTS ON immortality, to further make this clear, Paul in 2 Cor 5:4 says:

4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

Christians aren't destroyed (body, soul, spirit), you are confused. They only suffer the destruction of their bodies! Christ defeated spiritual death for us, not for the reprobate. They will suffer the second death, we will not!
The first death of course was their physical death and their souls went to Hades. Our souls/spirit go to Heaven. Then at the end of time, Judgment Day, the reprobate will be resurrected for their final death of BOTH BODY AND SOUL.

"fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" Matt. 10:28

People mistakingly use the terms Hades and Hell to mean the same place. Hell is the Lake of Fire. Hades gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. So it is not the same place. Furthermore 2 Peter 3:10 tells us that at the end of time, the first heavens and first earth will also be destroyed. It's the same event. 1st heavens, 1ST Earth, Death, Hades ( and every soul in it) DESTROYED.
Those who believe Hell is eternal must answer the question about the definition of death. Can you destroy something over and over again for eternity? That would change the meaning of the word destruction. That would be equivalent to an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing - a contradiction. No, you can only destroy something once. One can understand judgment coming in two phases, first death, then second death.

So death is supposed to be swallowed up by Life, Yet in Rev 20 Death and hades are swallowed by the lake of fire, which is also called the second death, a place everyone goes that doesn't have their names in the book of life, if these are identical then the lake of fire should really be called "the lake of life" or "the lake of immortality", or "the second life" instead of the second death.

Again, death of a Christian is swallowed up in victory, but not the death of the reprobate.

 

[ScottA]

everyone I've ever come across that talk about these passages take them as the same event.

13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:13-14

And

24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 cor 15:24-25

from first glace these seem pretty harmonious, Paul says death will be destroyed, and John seas death and hades done away with, but upon further examination, how Paul defines the destruction of death is much different than John does. verses 54-55 reads

54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55“O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

so Paul defines the destruction of death as when our mortal flesh PUTS ON immortality, to further make this clear, Paul in 2 Cor 5:4 says:

4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

So death is supposed to be swallowed up by Life, Yet in Rev 20 Death and hades are swallowed by the lake of fire, which is also called the second death, a place everyone goes that doesn't have their names in the book of life, if these are identical then the lake of fire should really be called "the lake of life" or "the lake of immortality", or "the second life" instead of the second death. Not only that but paul says this mortal PUTS ON immortality, so are we to put on the lake of fire? are we to put on hell? do we as Christians put on damnation? and if the lake of fire give immortality, then the beast, false prophet and dragon, and all judged at the white throne judgement are actually swallowed up by life, immortality and victory, I've concluded that if these are identical events then we have either

1. Universal salvation, the lake of fire gives life and immortality, all who are not written in the book of life are given life and victory. despite them not being Written in the lamb's book of life.
2. Or we have Univeral damnation including believers, putting on life, victory and immortality is actually putting on hell and damnation.

neither of these are plausible, especially 2. the only way out I see is these are not talking about the same event, but if these are not talking about the same event, then 1 cor 15 must come after Rev 20, because Paul said it's the LAST enemy to be defeated, therefore Rev 20 is not describing the end of everything, but 1 Cor 15 is. I consider myself a partial preterist that believes Revelation is about 70ad, for this reason I take this chapter as fulfilled as well, I just can't see these events as the same thing.

I've never seen anybody make this observation before, I would love some feedback, thanks

Many things have come by word "here a little there a little." But all do speak of the same thing, which is:

God whom is a "consuming fire" has set before us all "life and death blessing and cursing." The "end" of which means (as He has said) all that is evil, including death and darkness, is "swallowed up" or rather "consumed" in the holy fire of His spirit--consumed in God.

 

[Davy]

the second death is what destroys death in Rev 20:14
14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Yeah... and?

Paul says death is destroyed when this mortal puts on immortality, ...

Whoah! Paul said death is destroyed on the 'day' of Christ's return when His elect put on "immortality"???

Then WHY... are we shown in Rev.20 that the "SECOND DEATH" will still exist THROUGHOUT Christ's future 1,000 years reign for the unsaved, because the concept of 'death' is not destroyed until AFTER Christ's 1,000 years reign?

So go learn about that, and then readjust your theory so it better aligns with Bible Scripture.


But here, and for those interested. Here are the 4 Greek words Apostle Paul used involving that "change" on the "last trump". It will involve TWO different changes, not just one... one type for the wicked, and another for the Church.

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

"corruptible" = Greek phthartos, means 'perishable' per the Strong's. It's about the flesh body.

"incorruption" = Greek aphthrsia, means 'unending existence' per the Strong's. It's about Paul's "spiritual body".

"this mortal" = Greek thnetos, means liable to die per the Strong's. It's about the soul still liable to perish at the future "lake of fire" after Christ's 1,000 years reign.

"immortality" = Greek athanasia, means deathlessness per the Strong's. It's about the soul being made immortal.

Can you figure out how the above applies to the unsaved during Christ's future 1,000 years reign with those unsaved still being subject to the "SECOND DEATH", and thus their mortal soul is still liable to die?

What Paul revealed by that, but per the Greek, is that on the day of Christ's future return, all still alive on earth will be 'changed' at the twinkling of an eye, including the unsaved who will also go into Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect. They too... will put on the "spiritual body" for that will be the body type for ALL... when Jesus returns. And it is a heavenly image type body and that is all, a spirit body. It is NOT a soul with immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ, and that's the difference.

Or didn't you realize there will be a "resurrection of damnation" for the unsaved also on the day of Christ's future return? (John 5:28-29) And didn't you realize that is a resurrection to Paul's "spiritual body" also? There is nothing... written in Scripture showing that the wicked dead are raised to a new flesh body, or even to their old flesh body. On the day of Christ's future coming, this flesh time of this present world will be over, done with. Everyone is going to be in spirit bodies. But that does not mean everyone will have a soul that has put on immortality, obviously, because whole nations of the 'unsaved' will still exist throughout Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

This matter of the difference soul condition of the unbeliever vs. the believer ought... to be easy to understand, since just about every Christian brother/sister I know is at least somewhat familiar with the idea of being "born again" that Jesus said in John 3. Lord Jesus even used a metaphor for the unsaved being spiritually 'dead' inside while walking around in flesh bodies. He even said to let the dead bury the dead!

So how is it that brethren cannot figure this out about the future time after His return involving the unsaved, who will still have souls that are spiritually dead, and still subject to the "second death" of being cast into the "lake of fire" after Christ's 1,000 years reign?

 

[Davy]

Brethren, the confusion we have here with some here about this matter of death is this...

Some have been brainwashed by Jewish traditions about this flesh world and the idea of death. They have a difficult time thinking about any 'other' kind of manifestation than one that involves material matter. This is why many Jews actually believe our 'soul' part is made up of material matter, and dies when our flesh body dies, and must be resurrected with our flesh body at the future resurrection.

The problem with their thinking is they just... don't... realize... there is a whole other dimension of existence that is not of material matter, but is of Spirit.

The future resurrection is NOT... to another new flesh body. The resurrection is actually the casting off of our flesh body to reveal our spirit body that each one of us already has. Apostle Paul taught this, so I'm not making this up...

2 Cor 5:1-6
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our earthly house means our flesh body. That "building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens," is about our spiritual body that dwells inside our flesh body. Paul says if our earthly flesh house is suddenly dissolved, we still have another body, but not one of material matter, but of the heavenly order, a spirit body.

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 referred to that spiritual body as our "spirit" that goes back to God Who gave it. Per John 4, he said "God is a Spirit".

This means Paul is covering the subject of TWO DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS OF EXISTENCE HERE, our earthly one, and then the heavenly one. One is made up of material matter, the other is made up of Spirit. Like Lord Jesus said in John 3:6, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. We cannot... claim spirit is made up of material matter, nor that flesh is made up of Spirit. They are two different realms.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

For in WHAT... do we groan? Our spirit with soul groans while IN our flesh body. Why? Because our spirit with soul seeks to be released... from our flesh body and to put on immortality (through Christ Jesus). That future release is about the future glorious body many talk about. You already have that spiritual body. Paul shows here; it's just trapped in your flesh body, and waiting to be made immortal. And it ain't about a new flesh body either. It is a body of Spirit which God gave us.

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We that are in WHAT tabernacle (or house)? Our soul, our id, our person, which is attached to our spirit body that is in trapped in our flesh body. That's what Paul is talking about. When our flesh body dies, it goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, and our spirit (with soul) goes back to the heavenly realm, to God Who gave it.

5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
KJV

How's that? Well, where is The LORD at today? He is in Heaven, the dimension of Spirit. "So that means He is living somewhere up in the clouds around the earth, in the sky, right?", God forbid, NO! The clouds and sky around today's earth is part of this MATERIAL WORLD of MATTER, not the heavenly dimension of Spirit where God's Abode is.

Even as a child, I have never... had a problem considering this difference of the two separate dimensions of existence. I mean, since a child I was always told God was watching me, what I do. At some point, I determined to figure out just how God was watching me, since I didn't see Him anywhere.

Paul said it better than me...

Acts 17:24-30
24 God That made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
KJV

 

[Ziggy]

You believe God is the second death?

God is the consumer of death.

Death is swallowed up in Victory.

In the end God wins.
Always
Hugs

 

[Davy]

Below is where Apostle Paul was pulling from about Death Swallowed Up in Victory. Often in God's Word, The Old Testament Books of God's prophets contain more detail about a prophecy than The New Testament does. This is what this Isaiah 25 Scripture link to 1 Corinthians 15:53-55 is about...

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

The above verse contain events to occur on the final day of this world when Jesus returns, on the "day of the Lord". That "heat in a dry place" refers to the event of 2 Peter 3:10 when God's "consuming fire" will burn the elements of man's works off this earth on that "day of the Lord."

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

God loves all His creation. Does He not cause the rain to be upon the wicked also? God is long suffering, not wanting for any to perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3). On that future day after Christ returns, there will be a great feast for everyone, but only those who remain in Christ will be allowed to approach Christ at His table and serve Him (Ezekiel 44).

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

What kind of "covering" is that? and what is that "vail that is spread over all nations"?? Well, just what was Apostle Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 15:51 with the idea that ALL... will be "changed"? And that includes that idea "at the twinkling of an eye", meaning as fast as one can blink the eye.

I am amazed... at how so many preachers will preach the 1 Corinthians 15:49-55 Scripture where Paul said we shall all be "changed", and his quoting from Isaiah 25 about Death Swallowed Up in Victory, yet they never went back here to Isaiah 25 to see where Paul was preaching from.

That "face of the covering cast over all people" is about the flesh body, the body of "incorruption". That flesh body of incorruption will be put off for EVERYONE on the day of Christ's future return, and that means ALL... peoples, including the wicked still alive on earth on that day. That "vail that is spread over all nations" is the same idea of the flesh being cast off for everyone still alive on that day.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV


Will you... WAIT for Lord Jesus to come in our near future brethren? Or will you instead fly away to the supernatural false-Messiah that comes first, claiming to be The Christ?

 

[Verily]

God is the consumer of death.

Death is swallowed up in Victory.

In the end God wins.
Always
Hugs

You believe those not found in the book of life are given the victory when they cast into the lake of fire?

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Ziggy]

I believe that in the end of all things, that every soul that God created will return to their creator.
We can go there the easy way or the hard way. But in the end everything returns to God.
I believe every person has a role to play whether they are a believer or an unbeliever.
And God created them exactly for whatever purpose he needed them for. Ie: Pharaoh
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I believe the lake of fire is a purifying process that people have to go through. Some a lesser degree or a shorter period of time than others.
But everyone needs to be purged at some point.
And the lake of fire is that purging.

Psa 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.

I believe our God is a merciful God and his plans for us are much bigger than we could ever hope for.
That is not to say there won't be punishment and shame. I believe that is part of the process.
But in the end, every soul belongs to God and he will redeem it for himself.
Even if he has to put you through hell fire to cleanse you.

Hugs

 

[Verily]

I believe that in the end of all things, that every soul that God created will return to their creator.
We can go there the easy way or the hard way. But in the end everything returns to God.
I believe every person has a role to play whether they are a believer or an unbeliever.
And God created them exactly for whatever purpose he needed them for. Ie: Pharaoh
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I believe the lake of fire is a purifying process that people have to go through. Some a lesser degree or a shorter period of time than others.
But everyone needs to be purged at some point.
And the lake of fire is that purging.

Psa 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.

I believe our God is a merciful God and his plans for us are much bigger than we could ever hope for.
That is not to say there won't be punishment and shame. I believe that is part of the process.
But in the end, every soul belongs to God and he will redeem it for himself.
Even if he has to put you through hell fire to cleanse you.

Hugs

You are a universalist I am guessing?

 

[BrutalCross]

Death and Hades are destroyed.
Define destruction: to put an end to, to the point of non-existance. Burn a piece of paper in the fire and what is the result? It turns into ashes and no longer exists. What do physical dead bodies that are cremated look like? Ashes.
Hades holds all the dead souls who rejected Christ and all those souls before Christ since the beginning who did not live by faith. Now you might say, souls are not physical. True. But God will resurrection those souls, and throw them in the fire.
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:29
These are reprobate. They will be destroyed and will not exist anymore; hence, Death will not exist, only LIFE IN CHRIST.

Christians aren't destroyed (body, soul, spirit), you are confused. They only suffer the destruction of their bodies! Christ defeated spiritual death for us, not for the reprobate. They will suffer the second death, we will not!
The first death of course was their physical death and their souls went to Hades. Our souls/spirit go to Heaven. Then at the end of time, Judgment Day, the reprobate will be resurrected for their final death of BOTH BODY AND SOUL.

"fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" Matt. 10:28

People mistakingly use the terms Hades and Hell to mean the same place. Hell is the Lake of Fire. Hades gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. So it is not the same place. Furthermore 2 Peter 3:10 tells us that at the end of time, the first heavens and first earth will also be destroyed. It's the same event. 1st heavens, 1ST Earth, Death, Hades ( and every soul in it) DESTROYED.
Those who believe Hell is eternal must answer the question about the definition of death. Can you destroy something over and over again for eternity? That would change the meaning of the word destruction. That would be equivalent to an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing - a contradiction. No, you can only destroy something once. One can understand judgment coming in two phases, first death, then second death.

Again, death of a Christian is swallowed up in victory, but not the death of the reprobate.

OK, I anticipated this argument, you're basically saying then that "death" is destroyed in 2 modes then, death is destroyed for the righteous and that is when the mortal body puts on immortality, and death destroyed for the unrighteous is when God is finished killing every single unbeliever, so no one is left to die. I assume your annihilationist right?

first off, if death is destroyed in 2 modes, then which mode is destroyed first? it has to be the wicked, because Paul says "the last enemy" to be defeated is death, and he define this in v.54 as the mortal putting on immortality, this means the mortal putting on immortality has to come AFTER the wicked being destroyed. yet this is not what we see in Rev 20

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

this verse has to come BEFORE 1 cor 15, because Paul said the mortal putting on immortality is the LAST enemy, if these are identical deaths in 1 cor 15 and Rev 20, then the second death is immortality, because THAT IS WHAT DESTROYS DEATH!

So, to put in more logical form:

1. life and immortality swallows up death 1 Cor 15:54, 2 Cor 5:4

2. the second death destroys death Rev 20:14

3. therefore immortality is the second death and the second death is immortality

this is clearly a contradiction, therefore not identical events, so the whole chapter of 1 cor 15 must come after the judgement in revelation.

Furthermore the argument put forth by annihilationist that death is defeated when there's no one left to kill is such a stupid argument (no offense)

if this is so, then "death and hades" cast into the lake of fire must actually symbolize people then, because that is what's actually getting destroyed. Paul says that death will be destroyed by life, not additional death, therefore you must separate these events in some way, but 1 cor 15, must be LAST in any case.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

OK, I anticipated this argument, you're basically saying then that "death" is destroyed in 2 modes then, death is destroyed for the righteous and that is when the mortal body puts on immortality, and death destroyed for the unrighteous is when God is finished killing every single unbeliever, so no one is left to die. I assume your annihilationist right?

There is a first death and a second death.
Jesus conquered death for us. The wages of sin is death and though our bodies die, our soul/ spirit does not. We go to heaven. This is why death has no sting - for the Christian.
For the unbelievers, they suffer both first and second deaths. The first is bodily and as the soul separates, it descends into Hades, consciously aware of their torment (see Luke 16:19-31 - which is NOT a parable btw) until the second death comes at the end of time, in which they suffer destruction of both body and soul. They come to an end, do not exist thereafter.
Yes they are annihilated, along with the 1st heavens and 1st earth in this event ( 2 PETER 3:10).
After that event, Death, Hades ( all unbelievers who were in it), 1st heavens and 1st earth, won't exist anymore. Capisce?
This of course is contrary to the Traditional belief of eternal Hell. I think the problem is with how one defines the word, aionios or aionion. It has variable meanings. When applied to a temporal realm it means generations, lifetimes, ages, epoch, etc.; but has a temporal meaning. When applied to God, His domain or our salvation, then it enters into a different realm of eternity.
For instance, everlasting mountains obviously are not eternal, they are age-lasting. Everlasting ordinances are not eternal. In Gen. 13:15, does God promise the land to the Israelites forever? Forever does not mean eternal. It means "for ages"- until the 1st earth is destroyed.
In Psalm 103:17, "But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting ..." obviously substituting eternal to eternal does not make sense. From age to age. See the distinction that people miss?
The key verse that describes this difference is Matthew 25:46 KJV. The same word, aionion, is used but the writers show a distinct difference ( that many do not seem to understand). "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Everlasting here means age- lasting or age-during.

 

[Davy]

Psalms 37 shows the wicked will be no more...

Ps 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
KJV

Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV