How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[face2face]

God did not send the Logos to become a Son.

The Logos became flesh, meaning that the Holy Spirit's power conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary. Through His sufferings and trials, He was declared the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead. Rom 1:1-3

He sent His Son Who is the Logos, the voice, spokesman, of the Father.

Only the Father (Yahweh) uses His Logos to Create.

The Son is the begotten of God, and as the Son created all things.

All things are created by the Power of God through His Logos and with this in mind Jesus was given life.

God sent His Son. He didn't send anything or anyone else to become a Son.

No, God sent His Word by the Holy Spirit to bring about conception and Jesus was born.

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ”
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

Correct, it is by the Lord Jesus Christ and we by him that the New Creation (Spiritual) has been made. God willed for Christ to be the first fruits of them who sleep.

“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (begotten) of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ”
Colossians 1:13-17 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

Again - The Logos of God is the outward expression of His inward thought and gave Jesus life; born of a woman born under the law and born at the right time!

Hebrews 1:1-3, 6-12 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

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I’m going to present a few points for you to consider, Brakelite, because it seems you’ve selectively chosen verses that you believe support your interpretation.

1. "The firstborn of all creation" is qualified in verse Col 1:18 to be "the firstborn from the dead"

All that God willed through His Logos is centered in verse 18! The entirety of Creation finds its purpose in Colossians 1:18, and nothing that exists does so apart from it. When Jesus became the Son of God with power, no longer living in sinful flesh, but partaking in the Divine nature, He was exalted and took His place at the right hand of the Father, a position He had never occupied before that moment described in Colossians 1:18. I cannot stress this enough Brakelite! When this is shown you by the Lord himself then you will understand the enormity of what was achieved in him.

2. The "creation" in which Christ is the firstborn refers to the creation of new men and women, rather than the creation of light, dry land, and so on in Genesis. The terms "create" and "creation" are used in reference to Christ's work in a regenerative sense. Consider the following passages:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10, cf. 4:23-24).

"...to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace." (Eph. 2:15). Look up Col. 3:9-10, Gal. 6:15, James 1:18, 2 Cor. 5:17 and so on....

I'm dissapointed you do not know the context of Colossians, Corinthians & Hebrews.

3. The inspired Apostle, drawing from the Old Testament concept of the firstborn, attributes to Christ His position, rank, and status within the divine plan.

Here is a summary of this background:

• The firstborn succeeded his father as the head. (2 Chron. 21:2-3)
• The firstborn received a double portion of the inheritance. (Deut. 21:17)
• A younger son could be elevated to the position of firstborn if the eldest was deemed unworthy. (1 Chron. 5:1)

Adam lost this privilege due to his personal unworthiness, but the last Adam (Christ), through His perfect suffering, inherited the "double portion." He became "the firstfruits of those who have died," the "firstborn among many brethren," and "the head of the body, the church," so that in all things He might have the preeminence. (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20; Rom. 8:29)

Preeminence NOT pre-existence!

4. "Who is the image of the invisible God."

This is an obvious allusion to Gen. 1:26, "Let us make man in our image". Christ who was "full of grace and truth" demonstrated that he was the "image of the invisible God" by his faithfulness to death (Col 1:18 again!).

In him both earthly and heavenly creatures are "created" because in him they have a new function in the divine purpose. The angels who "minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14) have been instructed to pay him homage - "let the angels of God worship him." (Heb. 1:6).

5. If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), then he is a replica, not the original! The only reason he became a replica was due to his obedience to Gods Word.

6. Christ is the "firstborn of every creature". (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" implies a beginning, therefore Christ is not the "Eternal" Son of God of the trinitarians nor did he pre-exist!

7. Your reference to "he made the worlds" is referring to the new creation, not the old creation. This is made clear in Hebrews 2:5 - "It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking." The writer to the Hebrews is referring to THE WORLD TO COME. Jesus is the creator of this new world to come. The redeemed are described as a new creation, and Christ our creator. Christ will create "new heavens and a new earth", wherein dwells righteousness.

You will find no passage in the Bible which relates to Christ creating the physical order of things only that in Christ the Head and the Body are given life and abundantly!

F2F

 

[The Learner]

what I learned about oneness pentecostalism

I believe Jesus is God and the Trinity. oneness pentecostalism teaches that Jesus was only on God's mind and as such no pre-existence. Logically he is not God. However, they claim he is God the Father. They say, the fullness of the godhead being the Father is in him. When we are born again, we...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Brakelite]

The Logos became flesh, meaning that the Holy Spirit's power conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary. Through His sufferings and trials, He was declared the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead. Rom 1:1-3


Only the Father (Yahweh) uses His Logos to Create.

All things are created by the Power of God through His Logos and with this in mind Jesus was given life.

No, God sent His Word by the Holy Spirit to bring about conception and Jesus was born.

Correct, it is by the Lord Jesus Christ and we by him that the New Creation (Spiritual) has been made. God willed for Christ to be the first fruits of them who sleep.


Again - The Logos of God is the outward expression of His inward thought and gave Jesus life; born of a woman born under the law and born at the right time!


I’m going to present a few points for you to consider, Brakelite, because it seems you’ve selectively chosen verses that you believe support your interpretation.

1. "The firstborn of all creation" is qualified in verse Col 1:18 to be "the firstborn from the dead"

All that God willed through His Logos is centered in verse 18! The entirety of Creation finds its purpose in Colossians 1:18, and nothing that exists does so apart from it. When Jesus became the Son of God with power, no longer living in sinful flesh, but partaking in the Divine nature, He was exalted and took His place at the right hand of the Father, a position He had never occupied before that moment described in Colossians 1:18. I cannot stress this enough Brakelite! When this is shown you by the Lord himself then you will understand the enormity of what was achieved in him.

2. The "creation" in which Christ is the firstborn refers to the creation of new men and women, rather than the creation of light, dry land, and so on in Genesis. The terms "create" and "creation" are used in reference to Christ's work in a regenerative sense. Consider the following passages:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10, cf. 4:23-24).

"...to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace." (Eph. 2:15). Look up Col. 3:9-10, Gal. 6:15, James 1:18, 2 Cor. 5:17 and so on....

I'm dissapointed you do not know the context of Colossians, Corinthians & Hebrews.

3. The inspired Apostle, drawing from the Old Testament concept of the firstborn, attributes to Christ His position, rank, and status within the divine plan.

Here is a summary of this background:

• The firstborn succeeded his father as the head. (2 Chron. 21:2-3)
• The firstborn received a double portion of the inheritance. (Deut. 21:17)
• A younger son could be elevated to the position of firstborn if the eldest was deemed unworthy. (1 Chron. 5:1)

Adam lost this privilege due to his personal unworthiness, but the last Adam (Christ), through His perfect suffering, inherited the "double portion." He became "the firstfruits of those who have died," the "firstborn among many brethren," and "the head of the body, the church," so that in all things He might have the preeminence. (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20; Rom. 8:29)

Preeminence NOT pre-existence!

4. "Who is the image of the invisible God."

This is an obvious allusion to Gen. 1:26, "Let us make man in our image". Christ who was "full of grace and truth" demonstrated that he was the "image of the invisible God" by his faithfulness to death (Col 1:18 again!).

In him both earthly and heavenly creatures are "created" because in him they have a new function in the divine purpose. The angels who "minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14) have been instructed to pay him homage - "let the angels of God worship him." (Heb. 1:6).

5. If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), then he is a replica, not the original! The only reason he became a replica was due to his obedience to Gods Word.

6. Christ is the "firstborn of every creature". (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" implies a beginning, therefore Christ is not the "Eternal" Son of God of the trinitarians nor did he pre-exist!

7. Your reference to "he made the worlds" is referring to the new creation, not the old creation. This is made clear in Hebrews 2:5 - "It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking." The writer to the Hebrews is referring to THE WORLD TO COME. Jesus is the creator of this new world to come. The redeemed are described as a new creation, and Christ our creator. Christ will create "new heavens and a new earth", wherein dwells righteousness.

You will find no passage in the Bible which relates to Christ creating the physical order of things only that in Christ the Head and the Body are given life and abundantly!

F2F

Wow. That must take a lot of effort in order to force your views into those scriptures. FYI. I'm not advocating that the person of Jesus Christ is eternal in the Trinitarian sense. I am however adamant regarding His pre-existence. I'm not going to belabour the point however. Far better contributors than I have tried to convince you previously with all the appropriate scriptures, but to no avail. You didn't believe God's word presented by them, who am I that you should change your view on account of what i may offer.

 

[RedFan]

The Logos became flesh, meaning that the Holy Spirit's power conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary. Through His sufferings and trials, He was declared the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead. Rom 1:1-3

Interesting that you go with "declared" in this verse. The 1978 version of the NIV did too. Let’s look at Rom. 1:4 in the 1978 edition of the NIV:

and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared (ὁρισθέντος) with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord

The participle ὁρισθέντος is translated as “declared” here. Yet in none of its other seven appearances in the NT is the word so interpreted. Elsewhere its meaning is given as “installed,” “designated,” “established,” “ordained” or “appointed,” as in the closely related passage of Acts 10:42, as well as in Luke 22:22; in Acts 2:23, 11:29, 17:26, 17:31; and in Hebrews 4:7.

The 2011 edition of the NIV has opted for consistency:

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed (ὁρισθέντος) the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord

When ὁρισθέντος is given this more natural meaning, Rom. 1:4 suggests that Christ was appointed the Son of God at his resurrection, as opposed to having already been the Son of God and simply having that existing status declared by the fact of his resurrection. Translating Rom 1:4 to suggest adoptive sonship rather than preexisting sonship is more faithful to the Greek, but it is not as faithful to orthodox doctrine. In the 1978 NIV, doctrine won out. In the 2011 NIV, the opposite.

 

[face2face]

Wow. That must take a lot of effort in order to force your views into those scriptures.

It's more about showing the context in which it's written. It's noted you dealt with none of the 7 points.

FYI. I'm not advocating that the person of Jesus Christ is eternal in the Trinitarian sense.

I know this...you have corrected me on this before.

I am however adamant regarding His pre-existence.

Understand. You can't use New Creation language to force it.

I'm not going to belabour the point however.

Fair enough!

Far better contributors than I have tried to convince you previously with all the appropriate scriptures, but to no avail.

The three sections you used this time actually teach about the New Creation in Christ Jesus and how God entrusted His Son with the reconciliation of all things.

You didn't believe God's word presented by them, who am I that you should change your view on account of what i may offer.

I believe in the Word, Brakelite, but as you've seen in these discussions, proving pre-existence is far from easy. Now, if you were proving preeminence, that would be a completely different conversation—one that aligns with the Apostle Paul's teachings.

Jesus Christ received life for the first time at His conception, and He was born, growing in wisdom and stature with both God and man.

In this he was born that he might become the firstborn from the dead.

I died, and behold I am alive forevermore Rev 1:18

This only make sense if Jesus did not pre-exist.

It was prophesied of Christ: "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first {old covenant}, that he may establish the second. By the which will we {believers} are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:9).

Study his death for in this you will find life not only for Christ himself but for all he sanctifies

F2F

 

[face2face]

When ὁρισθέντος is given this more natural meaning, Rom. 1:4 suggests that Christ was appointed the Son of God at his resurrection, as opposed to having already been the Son of God and simply having that existing status declared by the fact of his resurrection. Translating Rom 1:4 to suggest adoptive sonship rather than preexisting sonship is more faithful to the Greek, but it is not as faithful to orthodox doctrine. In the 1978 NIV, doctrine won out. In the 2011 NIV, the opposite.

Happy with the word "appointed" Red.

@Brakelite you might find this reply interesting.

God's Son enters history through natural descent, belonging to the lineage of David. His nature was a true participation in the human family—He was genuinely man in every way! His bloodline traces back to David. The Authorized Version inserts the phrase from verse 4, "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord," at this point. The translators likely intended to emphasize that, while Jesus in His human nature came from David, He was also "Jesus Christ our Lord." However, in the Greek text of Romans 1:1-4, the emphasis on Jesus' natural lineage is much stronger than what is conveyed in the English translation.

His Sonship from Mortal Man to Divine Man happened at his resurrection when he was changed and exalted.

He was “declared/Appointed … to be the son of God … by his resurrection from the dead.”

He was installed as Son of God with power. The location of “in power” in the Greek text immediately following “Son of God” supports this interpretation.

Once again, this presents a problem for those who believe in the preexistence of Jesus, as it undermines the triumphant victory God had over sinful flesh. It also diminishes the significance of His sacrifice and exalted position. As soon as you give Jesus a dual nature you remove the entire plan and purpose of God in Him having a Son of natural descent.

F2F

 

[Brakelite]

Happy with the word "appointed" Red.

@Brakelite you might find this reply interesting.

God's Son enters history through natural descent, belonging to the lineage of David. His nature was a true participation in the human family—He was genuinely man in every way! His bloodline traces back to David. The Authorized Version inserts the phrase from verse 4, "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord," at this point. The translators likely intended to emphasize that, while Jesus in His human nature came from David, He was also "Jesus Christ our Lord." However, in the Greek text of Romans 1:1-4, the emphasis on Jesus' natural lineage is much stronger than what is conveyed in the English translation.

His Sonship from Mortal Man to Divine Man happened at his resurrection when he was changed and exalted.

He was “declared/Appointed … to be the son of God … by his resurrection from the dead.”

He was installed as Son of God with power. The location of “in power” in the Greek text immediately following “Son of God” supports this interpretation.

Once again, this presents a problem for those who believe in the preexistence of Jesus, as it undermines the triumphant victory God had over sinful flesh. It also diminishes the significance of His sacrifice and exalted position. As soon as you give Jesus a dual nature you remove the entire plan and purpose of God in Him having a Son of natural descent.

F2F

“11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. ”
Luke 15:11-24 KJV

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By quoting the above, I am not suggesting that Jesus sinned...He did not. But He became sin for us. The sins of mankind were laid upon Him, and the resurrection was testament to His Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. Yet Jesus was not about to presume upon His Father’s goodwill, and ascended to the Father in those early days after the resurrection in order to present Himself to the Father in person, in order to fulfil all the types of the OT services, in this case, the Passover.

If we sum up the teachings of the Passover observance we have the following reflections: The Passover is symbolic of the death of Christ. As the Passover lamb died, so Christ died. The blood of the lamb delivered Israel of old from the destroying angel. The blood of Christ now reconciles. The Passover is symbolic of the resurrection as typified in the wave sheaf. The type is perfect even as to time. The lamb died on the evening of the fourteenth day of Abib. On the sixteenth, the “morrow after the Sabbath,” the first fruits, which had previously been cut down, were presented before the Lord. Christ died Friday evening. He rested in the grave over the Sabbath. The “morrow after the Sabbath” “Christ the first fruits” was raised from the grave, and presented Himself before the Lord for acceptance. The “morrow after the Sabbath” was not “an holy convocation” or a Sabbath, either in type or antitype, but an important work was done that may need amplification. When Christ arose the first day of the week, it was necessary for Him to ascend to the Father to hear the words of God's acceptance of the sacrifice. On the cross His soul was in darkness. The Father hid His face from Him. In despair and agony He cried out, “My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me?” Matthew 27:46.

Now the resurrection had taken place. The first thing Christ must do was to appear in the presence of the Father and hear from Him the blessed words that His death was not in vain, but that the sacrifice was accepted as amply sufficient. So He must ascend to the heavens above and hear from the Father Himself the words of assurance; then He must come back to earth again to those who were yet sorrowing for His death, not knowing that He had been raised, and show Himself openly. This He did.

The declaration or appointment, it matters not which, is not a first time event, but a declaration of acceptance once again as the only begotten Son after having been separated from the Father through death. Remember what Jesus said to Mary?
“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. ”
John 20:17 KJV

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Then a week later He offers Himself to Thomas, "put your hand in my side..."

Showing the preexistence of the Son of God isn't that difficult if you accept the plain reading of words, giving consideration to the types and antitypes of Scripture, and have the ultimate expression of God's love at the forefront of your mind, not placing human limits on God's power. The sacrifice and the miracle of Jesus's existence belongs to the Father as well... He gave His Son to the human race. And the Son willingly carried out His Father's will.

“5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. ”
Hebrews 10:5-7 KJV

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[face2face]

By quoting the above, I am not suggesting that Jesus sinned...He did not. But He became sin for us.

I think a better phrase is he was "made" sin for us.

There are four scriptural expressions applied to Christ that those who struggle to accept the key truth about Christ's offering "first for himself" often have difficulty with. These expressions are typically handled cautiously or are painstakingly explained away. They include: "sinful flesh," "sin in the flesh," "made sin," and "our sins in his own body" (Romans 8:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24)

The reason for these phrases is that he was offered as a sin sacrifice; and that, since this sacrifice was made by a Holy One who committed no sin, yet "died to sin" (Romans 6:10), sin was condemned in human nature, and so could be removed from it—through the risen Savior—fully satisfying God's justice & righteosness.

This Brakelike is how the first Apostle's viewed the Son of God and his nature.

For you to discover truth you will need to look into your own nature and that of Christs to better understand the need for sin to be condemned in a sinless sacrifice.

25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Rom 3:25-26

The focal point of this condemning of sin is found in Jesus!

Once your eyes are set on this focus then I have no reason to disprove pre-existence because Christ was born of a woman, died, raised and now lives forever more.

The question you need to consider is: What kind of sin offering would be acceptable in God's (Yahweh's) eyes? And why was it absolutely necessary for Jesus to have our human nature? If Jesus were fully man without any of the Divine attributes of God's Spirit Nature, would this be a victory worthy of praise? And would Christ be deserving of His exalted position in the heavens (more so than if he was already a god or God)?

All I can do is encourage you to look into the OT & NT records to find the Christ - The Son of Man and in doing so you will find the Son of God.

F2F

 

[face2face]

“5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. ”
Hebrews 10:5-7 KJV

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What I'm essentially asking is for you to define what that prepared body was and why it was necessary for an obedient life to be laid down in that body.

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 1 Corinth 15:56

It was God who applied the Law in the beginning and it would be Him who would righteously remove it.

But how?

But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinth 15:57

What ever your insight into that Victory is Brakelite, its through death that it occurred! You need to explain how the law of sin and death was removed in Christ and why it was required he be one of us.

F2F

 

[Brakelite]

It was God who applied the Law in the beginning and it would be Him who would righteously remove it.

I don't have to much issue with anything you've said above, it's surprisingly orthodox. Just don't know why it's so important to you to present Christ as only human, as opposed to a divine being clothed in a human body, with 4000 years of inherited human weaknesses and weakened nature.
Regarding the quote above, you would need to explain please what particular law has been removed, and why.

 

[face2face]

I don't have to much issue with anything you've said above, it's surprisingly orthodox. Just don't know why it's so important to you to present Christ as only human, as opposed to a divine being clothed in a human body, with 4000 years of inherited human weaknesses and weakened nature.
Regarding the quote above, you would need to explain please what particular law has been removed, and why.

We die for two reasons:

1. We are born with inherited mortality

The best verse to explain this of Christ would be Romans 6:9

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

2. The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 AND 1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

These two facts concerning sin which resulted in God issuing a decree / Law that those who sin would return to the grave (wages) and return to dust from where Adam was taken.

However,

In Gods kindness, God devised a plan of restoration that without negating His just and necessary law of sin and death, would ultimately save humanity from destruction and populate the earth with sinless immortals.

• Revelation 21:4 - "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
• John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
• 2 Timothy 1:10 - "but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
• 1 John 2:25 - "And this is what he promised us—eternal life."
• 2 Timothy 1:1 - "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,"
• Titus 1:2 - "in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,"
• Romans 3:26 - "He did it to demonstrate his righteousness, at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
• John 1:29 - "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"

If this idea of "a divine being clothed in a human body" were true, then through Jesus, God never truly overcame our nature, and there would have been no victory, nor could the Law of Sin and Death have been righteously removed.

God required a man whom He could raise up from sinful flesh to demonstrate His righteousness and His condemnation of sin to mankind.

That man is Jesus!

In other words, the Law of Sin and Death, which states that the wages of sin is death, required the sin power to be broken through a perfect sacrificial life, with his blood representing a pure, obedient life given in full loving service.

Hebrews 2:14-17 ESV

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one (sin personified) who has the power of death (sin), that is, the devil (false accuser),
15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

2x's you are told Christ was 100% human in every way - like you - representing you!

Why?

To free those who were in slavery and fear of death!
To removed sins power - wages of sin is death
To become an High Priest who can sympothise with you and your temptations having been tempted/tested in the flesh!

F2F

 

[Jack]

We die for two reasons:

1. We are born with inherited mortality

The best verse to explain this of Christ would be Romans 6:9

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

2. The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 AND 1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

These two facts concerning sin which resulted in God issuing a decree / Law that those who sin would return to the grave (wages) and return to dust from where Adam was taken.

However,

In Gods kindness, God devised a plan of restoration that without negating His just and necessary law of sin and death, would ultimately save humanity from destruction and populate the earth with sinless immortals.

• Revelation 21:4 - "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
• John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
• 2 Timothy 1:10 - "but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
• 1 John 2:25 - "And this is what he promised us—eternal life."
• 2 Timothy 1:1 - "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,"
• Titus 1:2 - "in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,"
• Romans 3:26 - "He did it to demonstrate his righteousness, at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
• John 1:29 - "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"

If this "as opposed to a divine being clothed in a human body" was true then God through Jesus never overcame our nature and there was not Victory or could the Law of Sin and Death be removed.

God required a man whom He could raise up from sinful flesh, to overcome it.

In other words, the Law of Sin and Death, which states that the wages of sin is death, required the sin power to be broken through a sacrificial life, with blood representing a pure, obedient life.

Hebrews 2:14-17 from the ESV (English Standard Version):

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one (sin personified) who has the power of death (sin), that is, the devil (false accuser),
15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

2x's you are told Christ was 100% human in every way - like you - representing you!

Why?

To free those who were in slavery and fear of death!
To removed sins power - wages of sin is death
To become an High Priest who can sympothise with you and your temptations having been tempted/tested in the flesh!

F2F

Why are you quoting Bible when you admitted you don't believe the Bible?

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite if you think God would be satisfied with the death of an angel (impossible) or weirdly Himself (impossible) you have missed the mark.

F2F

 

[Johann]

“11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. ”
Luke 15:11-24 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

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By quoting the above, I am not suggesting that Jesus sinned...He did not. But He became sin for us. The sins of mankind were laid upon Him, and the resurrection was testament to His Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. Yet Jesus was not about to presume upon His Father’s goodwill, and ascended to the Father in those early days after the resurrection in order to present Himself to the Father in person, in order to fulfil all the types of the OT services, in this case, the Passover.

If we sum up the teachings of the Passover observance we have the following reflections: The Passover is symbolic of the death of Christ. As the Passover lamb died, so Christ died. The blood of the lamb delivered Israel of old from the destroying angel. The blood of Christ now reconciles. The Passover is symbolic of the resurrection as typified in the wave sheaf. The type is perfect even as to time. The lamb died on the evening of the fourteenth day of Abib. On the sixteenth, the “morrow after the Sabbath,” the first fruits, which had previously been cut down, were presented before the Lord. Christ died Friday evening. He rested in the grave over the Sabbath. The “morrow after the Sabbath” “Christ the first fruits” was raised from the grave, and presented Himself before the Lord for acceptance. The “morrow after the Sabbath” was not “an holy convocation” or a Sabbath, either in type or antitype, but an important work was done that may need amplification. When Christ arose the first day of the week, it was necessary for Him to ascend to the Father to hear the words of God's acceptance of the sacrifice. On the cross His soul was in darkness. The Father hid His face from Him. In despair and agony He cried out, “My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me?” Matthew 27:46.

Now the resurrection had taken place. The first thing Christ must do was to appear in the presence of the Father and hear from Him the blessed words that His death was not in vain, but that the sacrifice was accepted as amply sufficient. So He must ascend to the heavens above and hear from the Father Himself the words of assurance; then He must come back to earth again to those who were yet sorrowing for His death, not knowing that He had been raised, and show Himself openly. This He did.

The declaration or appointment, it matters not which, is not a first time event, but a declaration of acceptance once again as the only begotten Son after having been separated from the Father through death. Remember what Jesus said to Mary?
“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. ”
John 20:17 KJV

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Then a week later He offers Himself to Thomas, "put your hand in my side..."

Showing the preexistence of the Son of God isn't that difficult if you accept the plain reading of words, giving consideration to the types and antitypes of Scripture, and have the ultimate expression of God's love at the forefront of your mind, not placing human limits on God's power. The sacrifice and the miracle of Jesus's existence belongs to the Father as well... He gave His Son to the human race. And the Son willingly carried out His Father's will.

“5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. ”
Hebrews 10:5-7 KJV

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Ellen Gould White?

J.

 

[Davy]

@Davy - consider this symbol for a moment! No the sponge cake! But, this Manna, how did it form? In Whose mind was it devised? Was it the expression of Logos? Was this God's outward working of an inward thought?

It was the literal "bread from heaven" (Exod. 16:4; John 6:30-31) which spoke to the spiritual bread from Heaven!

The manna was provided to the Israelites as a sign of the promise made to Abraham (Psa. 105:40-42; 106:43-45), and in this way, it foreshadowed Christ, the true manna from heaven (John 6:32-35). One of Christ's titles is the Word or Logos, and the manna symbolized the Word of God. When a believer takes in that Word, they take part in Christ. Though the manna had to be consumed daily (since it would not last beyond a single day except on the Sabbath), some of it was placed in the Tabernacle and miraculously preserved. Thus, the manna represented that which grants eternal life. As such, the Lord promised, "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17), symbolizing immortality.

Christ the Son was the manifestation of Logos through sins flesh and became the Son of God on High. In Christ God has placed eternal life and the very Word (Logos) will judge us in that day.

F2F

Too much Alexandrian allegorical style thinking, which that landed those like Origin and Clement in trouble. The Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt suffered much influence from pagan ideas of ancient Egypt and Greece. We as Christians are not to try and allegorize every event written in God's Word.

The word "manna" itself simply means 'What's that?' That is what the Hebrews in the wilderness said when they first saw it, "What's that?"

Ex 16:15
15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, "It is manna": for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, "This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat."
KJV

As far as WHEN The Christ became The Son of GOD, there was NO START POINT for that. You should have realized that too, since Hebrews 1 tells us The Father created all things through His Son Jesus Christ. You might spend more time on New Testament Bible Scripture that declares Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Son of God, which Office He has ALWAYS had ETERNALLY with The Father, instead of allowing Judaism to influence your thoughts with their lack of understanding about GOD The Son, Jesus Christ, Immanuel God with us.

 

[face2face]

We as Christians are not to try and allegorize every event written in God's Word.

So are you saying Manna has no spiritual meaning at all? Just bread for you?

 

[face2face]

As far as WHEN The Christ became The Son of GOD, there was NO START POINT for that. You should have realized that too, since Hebrews 1 tells us The Father created all things through His Son Jesus Christ. You might spend more time on New Testament Bible Scripture that declares Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Son of God, which Office He has ALWAYS had ETERNALLY with The Father, instead of allowing Judaism to influence your thoughts with their lack of understanding about GOD The Son, Jesus Christ, Immanuel God with us.

The issue with your reference is you have a man made lower than the angels and then given a position above them.

So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. Heb 1:4

Is this the type of expression of a God?

Nice try Davy!...Yahweh the Almighty God could not be compared to Angels! Sounds to me like you have a smallish god!

F2F

 

[Brakelite]

Ellen Gould White?

J.

You flatter me. No, scripture and Brakelite.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was Jewish, and taught exclusively from Jewish Scripture because the NT was not yet written….the apostles also quoted OT Scripture, because they were all Jewish. All the first Christians were Jewish, so how can you say that?
Do you understand that every word penned in Scripture was written by a Jew? Not a single word was penned by anyone in Christendom…..not even the ECF.

The above ending is so historically incorrect that I'm not going to address it.
I don't even know to what you're replying...but no matter.
I'm taking some time off and won't really be replying to you.

Jesus wasn’t a “Christian”…..he lived and died as a Jew. He came to put God’s worship back on the rails because the disobedient Jewish leadership had derailed it…..for centuries before Christ presented himself to John for baptism, God had not sent a prophet to his wayward people because they were incorrigible. There was no point, and sending his son gave them no excuses…..he exposed them as the frauds they always were…..and they killed him because they did not possess the humility needed to admit their errors. History repeats.

Agreed.

Nature? Or personality traits? Jesus reflected his Father’s qualities and righteousness in ways that sinful humans could not. Being Adam’s equivalent (sinless) was what he needed to be in order to redeem the human race….he did not need to be God in order to do that……and besides, an immortal God cannot die.

Right. This is what the Islam religion teaches too. That God cannot die.
Maybe you're Islamic?

Of course all the nonsense I hear on some threads is due to the fact that the member is NOT Christian and does not accept that Jesus is God and does not accept the Trinity...which are prerequisites to being defined as Christian.

In the OT God said that HE HIMSELF would save His people. (Ezekiel, Jeremiah).
And, in fact, God HIMSELF DID save His people....and, in the New Covenant, anyone can be "one of His people" as He had promised to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant.

Mere humans cannot kill God...yet you accept this without thinking.

My thinking is just fine.
Check yours Auntie Jane.
Perhaps you could explain what Jesus meant when He said:
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS,,,,I AM.
What does I AM mean?
Does it mean that Jesus was the I AM in the past, the present or the future?

Jesus also called Himself the Son of God.
John 5:18
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Since you're very familiar with the OT, you must know that the Pharisees and Sadducees also were familiar with the OT and this is WHY they wanted to kill Jesus....He was considered a blasphemer, they feared His teachings, and it was obvious to them that He was calling Himself God.

I Luke 22:70 Jesus was asked if He was the Son of God....He replied YES, I AM.

That's two times that Jesus declared Himself to be God. There are many more instances.

We are ALL SONS OF GOD....
But Jesus was THE Son of God.

In Acts 3:14 Luke tells us that the crowd disowned THE HOLY ONE.
Who is THE HOLY ONE in the OT?
See Hosea 11:19, and many other verses,
GOD is the HOLY ONE....

ONLY God was called the Holy One...just as was referred toward Jesus in Acts 3:14.

Paul wrote that the Christ is “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15) so how does one reflect an invisible personage?….obviously, not physically, but only in personality. He cannot be God in human form because God has no human form…God is “a spirit”. (John 4:24) Jesus in his pre-human form was also a spirit, like all those who inhabit the spirit realm.

This is so silly....if God can create the universe....
why can't He come to earth as a human?
Matthew 31:25 The parable of the murderous servants.
Who could the son have been in this parable?

Again, you're refusal to understand the Trinity causes many problems for you when reading the NT.
Problems that we Christians do not face.

An eternal God had no “beginning”….which is the meaning of the word “eternal”….”no beginning or end”….Jesus clearly had a beginning, (Rev 3:14) which is confirmed by the fact that he is “begotten”….and this was long before his human birth because Paul calls him “the firstborn of ALL creation” (Col 1:15), which means he existed before ALL creation, having worked at his Father’s side in fashioning the raw materials that the Father had brought into existence. (Prov 8:30-32) All things came into existence “THROUGH” the son…but not “from” him. This is called agency. We all know what an agent does…don’t we?

Revelation 1:17 is speaking of whom?
Do you know what the logos is?
Do you believe John at all?
We're told by John in his gospel that the Word was with God....
then in John 1:14 we're told that THE WORD became flesh.
The word was WITH GOD and the word WAS GOD.
What is this word?
And how did it become flesh if John states it did and YOU don't believe him?
Are we to believe John or the JWs??

He was both 100% human and he was “divine” (divinely produced)….but he was not Yahweh. He was only ever called “theos” (god with a small “g”) because that word in Greek basically means “a divine mighty one”….but never is Jesus addressed as “ho theos” (THE God) which is how the Greeks addressed the one nameless God of the Jews.

If the divine name had still been in use, the trinity would never have been able to hold such a strong place in Christendom’s beliefs.

You admit that the Trinity held a strong place in Christendom.
Thank you for confirming history correctly.

So why would a belief system that came by 1,700 years late have any credibility at all?
And why would that belief system be called Christian by you when you don't accept Christian tenets?

John 1:1 would have read correctly…
”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh (ho theos), and the Word was divine (theos)”.

Leaving out one little word, changed the entire meaning of John’s declaration. It was the Word who “became flesh”, not “ho theos“ (Yahweh).

Of course the Word was divine...
it was not only divine,,,,it was a PART OF GOD that became flesh.
And He shall be called IMMANUEL....the title of GOD WITH US.

I would start over from the beginning and read the OT and the NT on my own and come to my own conclusions.
But it's difficult to leave the witnesses....this is true.
But, at the very least, you should stop proclaiming A DIFFERENT GOSPEL....just like Jesus said would happen after He was gone.
A gospel that came about 1,800 years after his death and resurrection.
A DIFFERENT GOSPEL from the one that the Apostles taught.

I probably won't be responding to you.