How can Premils possibly be wrong that there is a gap between 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Cor 15:24?

[WPM]

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Some apply 'in the regeneration' to the here and now while some apply it to the future, thus when Christ returns. Except it does not matter what this portion of the text is pertaining to---in the regeneration. If that's applicable to the here and now, or whether that is only applicable after Christ returns, does not change the fact that this portion---when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel--is not applicable until this is fulfilled first---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory(Matthew 24:31)

It is then a matter of, once Matthew 24:31 is fulfilled, which then leads to the fulfilling of this in Matthew 19:28---ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---is that meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 are fulfilled? Or is that meaning even after 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 are fulfilled, they continue doing this---sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---thus for forever since there would be no period of time that has a beginning and an ending post that of the fulfilling of 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 preventing it from continuing in that manner for forever.

It seems to me then, it is far more reasonable to take this part---ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel--to only be meaning up until 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 are fulfilled. Which then begs the question, does it sound reasonable that the same day they begin doing this, that very same day they quit doing it altogether?

And then there is this as well.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom---that they only get to do this for 24 hours or less. That alone is laughable, no doubt. Clearly then, thus undeniably, eating and drinking at His table in His kingdom is paralleling when they sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And that it is not remotely reasonable that the same day they begin eating and drinking at His table in His kingdom, is the same day they quit doing that altogether.

What does it matter? When Jesus returns: He introduces the eternal state? Time is gone! Whether He executes the general judgment in what we would understand as seconds, 24 hours or years makes no difference. There is no way of gauging time in eternity.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is nothing to rebut here, apart from you denying a plain reading of the text, and forcing 1000 years into the text where it does not exist. Premils have to do that with numerous passages. That is because the second coming is the end. This passage forbids your doctrine. You have no justification for your position.

I am not forcing anything into any text.

There is a gap. whether you believe it or not does not matter

Be it 1000 years. 100 years or 500 years. there is a gap between the return of Christ to rule. and the end of his rule.

If any7one is forcing anything, they are forcing the fact that these occur at the same time

 

[WPM]

I am not forcing anything into any text.

There is a gap. whether you believe it or not does not matter

Be it 1000 years. 100 years or 500 years. there is a gap between the return of Christ to rule. and the end of his rule.

If any7one is forcing anything, they are forcing the fact that these occur at the same time

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

 

[Davidpt]

Let's call this A)---they that are Christ's at his coming.

And let's call this B)---1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Next let's look at the following.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Obviously, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem , means that verse 12 was not also their fate at the time, thus they were spared that. But that's not the end of it, because now they have to start doing this post the fulfillment of verses 12---shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain...so on and so on.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the following can't be fulfilled in a single day---shall even go up from year to year.

With A) and B) in mind, since it's plainly obvious that nothing pertaining to Zechariah 14:16-19 can come to pass before Zechariah 14:12 comes to pass first, let's start asking ourselves some questions here.

shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Since this starts with A), is anyone in their right mind going to seriously argue that the same day theybegin doing this is the same day they quit doing this altogether, that, shall even go up from year to year, can fit within a single day?

We have two options here since that obviously can't fit within a single day. Either there are more days after A) but before B), thus allowing for this--shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Or, even after B) is fulfilled, they continue to do this---shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain---thus this continues forever in this manner, where there is then this threat of no rain, for forever hanging over their head, since there would be no period of time post the fulfilling of B) that has a beginning and an ending in order to prevent this from occurring for forever.

Once again, unless someone can convincingly prove otherwise, there is no way anything pertaining to Zechariah 14:16-19 is applicable until after verse 12 has been fulfilled first. And clearly, verse 12 has not been fulfilled yet.

Edited to add the following.

To add to what I already submitted above, let's consider the following.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


Let's try things from this angle. We know from the text that all enemies, not just some enemies, but all enemies, have to be subdued first, thus put under His feet before the end meant in verse 24 can arrive. No one could possibly have a dispute with that.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.


As to these meant in this verse, are they friends or enemies if they refuse to come up for whatever reason? IOW, have these been put under His feet at this point if they can refuse to come up? It's pretty clear then, as of this verse, which is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first, 1 Corinthians 15:25 is obviously still in progress, thus the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:25 hasn't arrived yet. Which shows that there is actually only one option not 2 options concerning these. IOW, Zechariah 14:17 still meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:24 has been fulfilled is not an option after all, nor ever was, regardless that I submitted it as an option. Even though I submitted 2 options, obviously, both options can't be true. And now it is even clearer which option can't be true.

And since Zechariah 14:17 can't begin until after verse 12 is fulfilled first, and that they are to go up from year to year, thus something that can't remotely fit a single day, as in 24 hours or less, if this doesn't prove Premil, nothing does. The only way it can't prove Premil is if verse 17 is meaning before verse 12 is fulfilled rather than after. Except until verse 12 is fulfilled first, in the meantime there can't be those remaining of the nations that came against Jerusalem if there are still those that verse 12 is to happen to hasn't even happened to them yet.

IOW, for some to remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem means that some don't remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem. Verse 12 is the reason for the latter. Which means verse 12 never happens to these in verses 16-19 if they are still remaining after verse 12 was fulfilled. Therefore, nothing pertaining to verse 16-19 could possibly be meaning before verse 12 is fulfilled first.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;

Christ raised first

afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia].

After this, Those raised at his comming

Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This will happen AFTER his reign on earth.

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

Sorry, Your in error. and have to throw out half the old and nt for this to be true.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Let's call this A)---they that are Christ's at his coming.

And let's call this B)---1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Next let's look at the following.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Obviously, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem , means that verse 12 was not also their fate at the time, thus they were spared that. But that's not the end of it, because now they have to start doing this post the fulfillment of verses 12---shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain...so on and so on.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the following can't be fulfilled in a single day---shall even go up from year to year.

With A) and B) in mind, since it's plainly obvious that nothing pertaining to Zechariah 14:16-19 can come to pass before Zechariah 14:12 comes to pass first, let's start asking ourselves some questions here.

shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Since this starts with A), is anyone in their right mind going to seriously argue that the same day theybegin doing this is the same day they quit doing this altogether, that, shall even go up from year to year, can fit within a single day?

We have two options here since that obviously can't fit within a single day. Either there are more days after A) but before B), thus allowing for this--shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Or, even after B) is fulfilled, they continue to do this---shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain---thus this continues forever in this manner, where there is then this threat of no rain, for forever hanging over their head, since there would be no period of time post the fulfilling of B) that has a beginning and an ending in order to prevent this from occurring for forever.

Once again, unless someone can convincingly prove otherwise, there is no way anything pertaining to Zechariah 14:16-19 is applicable until after verse 12 has been fulfilled first. And clearly, verse 12 has not been fulfilled yet.

Amen.

 

[WPM]

Christ raised first

After this, Those raised at his comming

This will happen AFTER his reign on earth.

Sorry, Your in error. and have to throw out half the old and nt for this to be true.

His reign is forever on the new perfected earth, not the sin-curse portrayal that you present of more-of-the-same. The newly glorified environment is only suitable for newly glorified saints. Mortals and mortality, sin and sinners, are excluded from this freshly perfected arrangement.

Revelation 11:15-17 confirms: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

To cover this gaping hole in their positions, the respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

The coming of the Lord introduces the glorious eternal reign of Christ on earth. There is no end to this reign. There is only one future Coming, which sees the introduction of the glorified eternal kingdom.

Revelation 22:3-5 describes the eternal state that is awaiting the redeemed: “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.”

This reigning lasts for ever and ever. It sees the Almighty and the Lamb enthroned.

 

[PinSeeker]

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Okay, there's really no difference, but my preferred versions are the English Standard Version (ESV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB), and the New International Version (NIV), in that order. Here's the ESV:

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Some apply 'in the regeneration' to the here and now while some apply it to the future, thus when Christ returns. Except it does not matter what this portion of the text is pertaining to---in the regeneration. If that's applicable to the here and now, or whether that is only applicable after Christ returns, does not change the fact that this portion---when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel--is not applicable until this is fulfilled first---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (Matthew 24:31)

Agreed.

I have not been as much a part of this particular part of the conversation as you and others have, but I guess you're saying amillennial believers would assert otherwise, right? Well... not all who would call themselves amillennialists, including... yours truly. :) Yeah I’m with ya here…

Now, I realize you said here that "it does not matter what this portion of the text is pertaining to---in the regeneration" (or, from the ESV above, "in the new world," which answers the question, really), I will say that Jesus is not referring to the here and now, either 2000 years ago or now in 2024... :)... but rather to after He, Christ, returns. Frankly, it's a bit astonishing to me that anyone would assert that it's "applicable to the here and now," but hey, as I've said ~ and this is true regarding pretty much anything, really ~ if something can be thought, there are probably some folks out there who actually think it. :) I'm kind of chuckling as I say that, but yeah... <chuckles>

It is then a matter of, once Matthew 24:31 is fulfilled, which then leads to the fulfilling of this in Matthew 19:28---ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---is that meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 are fulfilled? Or is that meaning even after 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 are fulfilled, they continue doing this---sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---thus for forever since there would be no period of time that has a beginning and an ending post that of the fulfilling of 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 preventing it from continuing in that manner for forever.

What I would say, here, David, is that Jesus is here (in Matthew 19) speaking to His twelve disciples (excluding Judas, who was replaced Matthias; Acts 1:26), who would later become the apostles. And what He's telling them is that they will participate in the final establishment of the Kingdom of God on the earth. So, then, what we see in 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28 is surely not "prevented from continuing forever," but rather... well, then continues from that point forward into eternity... God's Kingdom will certainly have no end.

It seems to me then, it is far more reasonable to take this part---ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel--to only be meaning up until 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 are fulfilled. Which then begs the question, does it sound reasonable that the same day they begin doing this, that very same day they quit doing it altogether?

I think, David, some folks make this "sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" of Matthew 19 to be something else other than it is. Again, I would say this is Jesus's way of saying that they ~ the apostles ~ will participate in the final establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. And this is after Jesus has executed the final Judgment... I think/hope we would all agree that Jesus executes the final Judgment, depicted in various ways in various passages, like Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, and Revelation 20:11-15... So, again, after Jesus has executed the final Judgment. So, after... pulling the text from 1 Corinthians 15:24,28 ...Jesus "delivers the Kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power" and "all things are subjected to" Jesus, and "then the Son himself" is "subjected to Him Who put all things in subjection under Him." This is the establishment of the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1-8. And, of course, there is no end.

And then there is this as well.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom---that they only get to do this for 24 hours or less. That alone is laughable, no doubt. Clearly then, thus undeniably, eating and drinking at His table in His kingdom is paralleling when they sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And that it is not remotely reasonable that the same day they begin eating and drinking at His table in His kingdom, is the same day they quit doing that altogether.

Okay, so, the ESV again (including Luke 22:28-29 for context):

"You are those who have stayed with Me in My trials, and I assign to you, as My Father assigned to Me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

This passage is very much parallel to the Matthew 19 passage above, and my explanation is the same. Actually, I would correlate both passages to what is alluded to in Revelation 19:6-8, the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Note: that will probably set some folks here off, because they're so all in on Revelation being from end to end absolutely chronological, but it's nooo-ooooooot... :)

So just to recap: I say, with regard to Matthew 19, it is unreasonable to think there is any significant length of time, much less a thousand years, between the time that the apostles sit upon the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel and “quit doing it altogether” (as you put it); again, I say it's a misconstruing of what Jesus means by that... they will participate in the final establishment of God's Kingdom, and this final establishment is its ushering in, its initiation, and need only happen once, not lasting for any extended period. What that final establishment actually will look like we don't know, as we are not told. And again, in both the cases, this is after Jesus executes the final Judgment, and initiated by the events described in Revelation 21:1-8. There is no literal 1,000-year period before (post mills) or after (Pre mills) Jesus's return.

So, yet again, I submit that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 is the period leading up to Christ's return ~ the fullness of God's time (symbolized by the thousand years) in bringing all His elect into Israel. This ~ now ~ is Christ's millennial reign, which is from heaven. But as He said at the end of Matthew 28, He is with us now, "always, to the end of the age"... in the Spirit, just as we are now, in the Spirit, with Him, seated in the heavenly realms, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2. Anyway, then, in short order, will be His return, His final victory over Satan, His execution of the final Judgment, and the establishment of the New Heaven and New Earth (in which the apostles will participate).

Thoughts? Comments? I'm open to discussion, of course.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Keraz]

I submit that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 is the period leading up to Christ's return

2 Timothy 4:1 refutes you. ....by His coming appearance and His reign.
Christ Returns and then He reigns, for the next thousand years. Also by the plain Words of Revelation 20 and by the fact of there having been nearly 6000 years since Adam and the Biblical descriptions of the last, 1000 years of the earths Sabbath, where King Jesus will rule over a world, living as God always intended.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

His reign is forever on the new perfected earth, not the sin-curse portrayal that you present of more-of-the-same. The newly glorified environment is only suitable for newly glorified saints. Mortals and mortality, sin and sinners, are excluded from this freshly perfected arrangement.

He is not reigning now. If you think he is reigning on this earth. You have not read about the earth in the time of his coming.

 

[PinSeeker]

2 Timothy 4:1 refutes you. ....by His coming appearance and His reign.

Disagree. The meaning is the same, but I prefer the wording of the English Standard Version (ESV):

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, Who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching..."

That word "coming" in the version you are quoting can be misleading... You seem to see "His coming" as applying to both His return and His reign, and thus both His return and reign are future only. That's true, of course, but to hear it that is to change Paul’s context. He’s issuing a charge to his readers (and us) based on past (His appearing, His first advent and life on earth) and present (His kingdom, which is here now; Jesus said so several times) realities, to preach the Word and be ready to do the things he exhorts us to do there.

Yes, His return is still future, as is His eternal reign. But this is not true of His millennial reign, which is not future only, it is now. Jesus said He was King 2000-plus years ago, Keraz, and that has not changed (and will not, of course). As I have asked others, Keraz, so I will ask you here: Who is your King? Right now, Keraz, Who is your King?

Christ Returns and then He reigns, for the next thousand years.

Well, He certainly returns, and continues His reign, only then, it is no longer His millennial reign (because the millennium will have come to a close) but His eternal reign, in which there will be no more sin or death, and it will have no end. I ask you again: Who is your King? Who is your King? Now, His millennial reign may not look like we would like it to look, but He is our reigning King. Again, Jesus said He was King 2000-plus years ago, and that has not changed, and will not.

Also by the plain Words of Revelation 20...

Well, we don't disagree about the plainness of the wording of Revelation 20, but rather what the proper understanding of that plainness of that wording is. I would submit to you here, Keraz, that, if you are honest ~ and I don't mean to imply that you are or might possibly be dishonest ~ you will admit that when you/I/we read the following...

"They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)​

...it is very much a valid plain-text reading to understand this first resurrection as happening to each one at his or her appointed time (see Acts 13:48) over the course of the millennium of Revelation 20:1-3. And that necessarily means that, individually speaking, very few actually come to life and reign with Him for the full millennium, and, though you might think and say otherwise, this is not a refutation of the text in any way. You and I have been resurrected ~ not bodily; that will come soon enough, but in the context of what Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6... we were previously dead in our sin but have been raised and are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

We do agree that Jesus is certainly reigning during the millennium, but I disagree that this millennium is future only, but rather the current reality... and not a literal one thousand 365-day periods (years, as it were), but rather a fullness of God's time in bringing His Israel (and this first resurrection, in Revelation 20 terms) to completion, to save all Israel, as Paul puts it in Romans 11:25-26. And I submit to you that not all the events described in Revelation 20 are chronologically subsequent to the events described in Revelation 19, specifically verses 11-21, which, yes, describe Christ's return and defeat of Satan. Rather, the events described in Revelation 19:11-21 are concurrent with ~ really the same events as ~ those events described in Revelation 20:7-10; the parallels of those two passages are readily apparent.

...and by the fact of there having been nearly 6000 years since Adam and the Biblical descriptions of the last, 1000 years of the earths Sabbath, where King Jesus will rule over a world, living as God always intended.

Hmmm, well, your assertion here triggers several thoughts; I'll just step back ~ not away, but just back, in a broader perspective sort of way ~ and say that I think you are reading plain Biblical texts in such a way that, unintentional as it may be, they are made far simpler than they really are.

I do certainly appreciate your conviction, and respect your understandings, but... disagree with at least some of them.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

His millennial reign may not look like we would like it to look, but He is our reigning King. Again, Jesus said He was King 2000-plus years ago, and that has not changed, and will not.

Jesus gave us a description of how it is now and after He Returns, in the Parables of the Talents and the wicked vineyard tenants.
He is currently away 'in a far country', soon to Return and deal to those who failed to use their God given talents, or rejected Him.

The idea of AMill is totally refuted by the fact of Satan being still able to seduce and deceive people. He will not be able to do that after he is chained up when Jesus Returns.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus gave us a description of how it is now and after He Returns, in the Parables of the Talents and the wicked vineyard tenants.
He is currently away 'in a far country', soon to Return and deal to those who failed to use their God given talents, or rejected Him.

Well, yes, I agree. Absolutely.

The idea of AMill is totally refuted by the fact of Satan being still able to seduce and deceive people.

So many think, but they misunderstand what it means for Satan not to be able to deceive the nations. But that's really okay; at least they know Satan is able to seduce and deceive and are hopefully on their guard, having put on the full armor of God and thus able to stand against the schemes of the evil one.

He will not be able to do that after he is chained up when Jesus Returns.

Well, he will not be able to do that any longer then, I agree. But not because he will be chained up...

Grace and peace to you, Keraz.

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh Dear, heresies are being pushed in the above posts.

It is Satan that is being talked about in the Parables of the Talents and the Minas in Matthew and Luke. The two parables confirm this fact within their respective storylines.

At the present time Satan is empowering his good and faithful servants with lots of cash, i.e., talents and minas, both measures of money back in the time of Jesus' first advent. These Good and faithful servants of Satan will oppose God setting up His Everlasting kingdom during the first 1,000 years of the Seventh Age.

They will not be as effective as Satan hopes will be and many people will turn once more to God and worship Him alone.

Yes, when Satan and the other wicked fallen Angels, the Beasts of Daiel 7 are judged in heaven, they will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years before they are released for a little while period at the end of the Seventh Age and they will be able to influence the sea of humanity once again until they are captured and dispatched into the Lake of Fire. While they are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit, they will not be able to directly influence people, but once they are released their influence over people will once again be experienced and Satan will set out to destroy and kill God's Saints and impose himself over the people to rule them once again.

The heretics above presenting a false gospel of Christ having to go away for a time to receive His Kingdom are actually Satan's good and faithful servants, the religious type ones.

After the kings of the earth and the heavenly hosts are judged, and imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, The Ancient of Days will give the Son of Man dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him. When Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth, he is also given the Ever Lasting Kingdom to exercise His Priestly Rule over such that there will be a great harvest of Souls for God.

The above heretics are also belittling Satan's other good and faithful servants the Pre-tribers, the Mid-tribers and the Post-tribers who have also twisted scripture to support their theological theories that point away from God's words.

There are many gaps not openly revealed in the scriptures for people to point to but because they are not explicitly spoken about others deny their existence.

Satan will have many good and faithful servants working for him right up and until the final judgement time when they will be dispatched into the Lake of fire.

God has told us that only those who inhabit His fertile soil in his fields sending down roots into that soil so that we can be nourished and watered in God's ways will be blessed at the time of the final judgement.

Shalom