How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Eternally Grateful]

Sounds like white-knuckling it. When He said First seek Me and My righteous…Learn of Me, take My Yoke upon you, My burden is Light …I take that to mean it is Light because he has Bourne the burden of it having the strength and power I do not have in myself. Cast all your cares upon Him. For He cares for you. Do not be anxious for what clothing you will put on (the new man), or for what you will drink (Living Water flowing out from God) or for what you will eat (give us Lord our daily bread) forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. To me He says in seeking Him first, He has it covered. Having more than is sufficient, prepared in Him.

white knuckling?

If I am dead I am dead.

You seek God for his righteousness. because you are not righteous.. You can;t to God on your own righteousness. Thats called being born again.

the issue is people think that penal substitution is a false doctrin. These people are wrong.. They are trying to get saved by their own righteousness

If you want to remain dead. remain dead.. All the fruit in the world will not help you get to heaven.. You will remain lost if that is what you want to do

 

[ChristisGod]

No brother.....why is our faith being tested and tried - PROVEN..? The proving of our faith. To prove or show that it is the kind that can stand/endure the test of fire. The only kind that can stand that is certainly not of the flesh. It has to be of God, of His Spirit.

It’s not the proving of Gods faith He gave it’s the testing of YOUR faith. If God gives faith then we would all have the same faith since it’s God who controls our faith like He does our salvation . There would be no accountability , loss of rewards, testing of YOUR faith etc …. Faith is something we do, not God. He would not command us to believe if He gives that to us , that is our responsibility just like any other command God gives us.

 

[Lizbeth]

It’s not the proving of Gods faith He gave it’s the testing of YOUR faith. If God gives faith then we would all have the same faith since it’s God who controls our faith like He does our salvation . There would be no accountability , loss of rewards, testing of YOUR faith etc …. Faith is something we do not God. He would not command us to believe if He gives that to us , that is our responsibility just like any other command God gives us.

James 1:3 knowing that proving of your faith worketh patience. Yes, it's ours but only because He gave/is giving it to us, by His Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who here is glorying and boasting in ourselves as if we didn't receive it? We are only testifying (with gratitude) that we did receive it. The accusations are never ending.

I don’t understand where it comes from. I have never seen people fight the need to be rescued, born again in my like than I have seen here these past few months..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s not the proving of Gods faith He gave it’s the testing of YOUR faith. If God gives faith then we would all have the same faith since it’s God who controls our faith like He does our salvation . There would be no accountability , loss of rewards, testing of YOUR faith etc …. Faith is something we do not God. He would not command us to believe if He gives that to us , that is our responsibility just like any other command God gives us.

You trust in God

But God gives you the reason to trust him,

hence it is God who gives us faith

That is what they are trying to say.. I really hate this topic. it is a distraction

 

[Johann]

Though I believe we have to choose to receive Jesus, we do so, if we do, with the faith God gives us.

"To each he has given a measure of faith."

"They did not benefit from the word preached to them, it not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Much love!

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2Co_10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

Eph_4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

You are blessed to have a wonderful pastor and have regular fellowship marks-not so with me.

 

[Johann]

No brother.....why is our faith being tested and tried - PROVEN..? The proving of our faith. To prove or show that it is the kind that can stand/endure the test of fire. The only kind that can stand that is certainly not of the flesh. It has to be of God, of His Spirit.

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

1 Peter 1:6-7
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

Genesis 22:5-12
And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.” So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together. Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, 'Abraham, Abraham!' So he said, 'Here I am.' And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Deuteronomy 8:2-3
And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him."

1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you;

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.""

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Genesis 22:1-3
Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 18:8
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

Hebrews 11:17-19
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

2 Chronicles 32:31
However, regarding the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, whom they sent to him to inquire about the wonder that was done in the land, God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart.

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Luke 18:1
Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart,

Romans 4:19
And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.

1 Corinthians 11:19
For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Hebrews 11:8-9
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:32-34
And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Hebrews 11:36-39
Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

Genesis 18:10-14
And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.” (Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”

Hope this helps.

 

[marks]

“No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” Romans 4

Did you know that "grew strong" is the Passive Voice?

And not, "as he gave glory to God".

Romans 4:20 KJV
20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

He was made strong in faith. That gives the glory to God.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

white knuckling?

If I am dead I am dead.

You seek God for his righteousness. because you are not righteous.. You can;t to God on your own righteousness. Thats called being born again.

the issue is people think that penal substitution is a false doctrin. These people are wrong.. They are trying to get saved by their own righteousness

If you want to remain dead. remain dead.. All the fruit in the world will not help you get to heaven.. You will remain lost if that is what you want to do

PSA has nothing to do with works , self righteousness etc and has everything to do with how the Father treated the Son with the atonement. Did you get a chance to read my thesis paper on the topic yet in this link ?

The Tri-Unity of God in the Atonement and Jesus last words | Berean-Apologetics

View Update Here> There are many misconceptions and views on the atonement. I will try and clear up some of those in this thread espe

berean-apologetics.boards.net

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Johann]

Though I believe we have to choose to receive Jesus, we do so, if we do, with the faith God gives us.

"To each he has given a measure of faith."

"They did not benefit from the word preached to them, it not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Much love!

"For through the grace given to me" This is an aorist passive participle. The grace came from God in a past, complete event (i.e., the Damascus road encounter). In this context "grace" related to spiritual giftedness (cf. Rom. 15:15; 1 Cor. 3:10; 15:10; Gal. 2:9; Eph. 3:7-8), not the gift of righteousness (cf. Romans 4). This refers to Paul's conversion and call to be apostle to the Gentiles (cf. Acts 9:15; Rom. 1:1,5; Gal. 1:15-16; 2:7-8; Eph. 3:1-2,8; 1 Tim. 2:7; 2 Tim. 4:17).

"I say to everyone among you" The warning of Rom. 12:3 is for all Christians, not just leaders.

"not to think more highly of himself"

"as God has allotted to each" This is an aorist active indicative. Believers do not choose their spiritual gifts (cf. 1 Cor. 7:17; 12:11; Eph. 4:7). They are given by the Spirit at salvation for the common good (cf. 1 Cor. 12:7). The gifts of the Spirit are not merit badges which exalt the individual, but servant towels so that each believer may serve the body of Christ, the church.

"a measure of faith" This referred to one's ability to function effectively in their spiritual giftedness (cf. Rom. 12:6). To be healthy, spiritual giftedness must be exercised by means of the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Rom. 12:9-12; Gal. 5:22-23). The gifts are the ministries of Jesus divided among His followers, while the fruit is the mind of Christ. Both are necessary for effective ministry.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Look up the word Haya and ἦν-as in John 1:1--not being facetious with you.

Again, single word.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Myself, I think in terms that we have eternal life, that being life derived from being joined to the Father. I think of eternal life as life not based in this temporal realm, but life found in being joined to God. And this eternal life is everlasting, because God is immortal.

Much love!

Yes, and the New Testament refers to a time in our future when all of those joined to God will experience a quality of life and human fulfillment never seen in human history before: fulfillment, thriving, happiness, peace, shalom, honor, steadfastness, faithfulness, goodness and love. The NT refers to that time as "Life in the age of ages."

Imagine a time where there is no more tears, no more strife, no more worry, or anxiety, or pain or death. A life where relationships grow stronger instead of breaking down. A life where promises are kept. A life where accidents or tragedy doesn't rob anyone of joy or happiness. A life filled with courageous people who are not afraid of the truth.

The promise of "eternal" life is a promise of "Life as it will be in that final age."

Thanks Marks.

 

[Lizbeth]

look at the Lord’s table…
One goes away hungry, another goes away in drunkenness …in drunkenness is not a good thing to be in. Staggering. Drinking condemnation down unto themselves. Wrath is spoken of on the thread …can you not see drunkenness and stumbling while another goes hungry? Is why so many of you are sick and do sleep? If that isn’t connected to be sober, watch, wake up you who sleep and Christ will give you Light… then how else are they made drunk if not from taking from others who are hungry?
Who is hungry…do you think I mean begging for literal food? No starved by those feeding themselves. (Fat cattle and thin cattle). This is the fast He calls for…what is the fast? Where He says then your Light will shine forth? But what I hear you saying is no, that can’t be enough receiving of and bearing fruit from another? the only way to bear fruit from another is if we have planted first in seeking Him first …is that so wrong? so how does this not all work hand in hand with deliverance from evil?

ok, yes I see the allegories. But what happens to the warning about treating what is holy as a common thing, ie, treating the Lord's supper as if it were just another meal to satiate physical hunger or gluttony, when it is so much more than that. If we treat the Lord's supper as common (as opposed to holy) and not recognizing His crucified Body in it, some will be judged with sickness or death. May I ask, how do you understand communion...what it is and why Jesus ordained it?

 

[Keturah]

James 1:3 knowing that proving of your faith worketh patience. Yes, it's ours but only because He gave/is giving it to us, by His Spirit.

To know & hold to the doctrines of Christ / the doctrines of God is NOT indoctrination but is called obedience.

While God WILL NOT force any to believe the truth, those that ARE TRULY seeking the TRUTH will BELIEVE the truth when the Spirit bears witness.

This constant ya yaing to PROVE to someone who refuses, denies, twist & rabbit holes the word of God is fruitless,.

Rebuke, exhort then dust them from our feet for IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD CANT CONVINCE OF THE TRUTH ,then we are a wasted effort. It doesn't say to forever be trying to convince.....

Don't cast your pearls before swine; since swine CANNOT DISCERN BETWEEN A PEARL & A TURD !

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"For through the grace given to me" This is an aorist passive participle. The grace came from God in a past, complete event (i.e., the Damascus road encounter). In this context "grace" related to spiritual giftedness (cf. Rom. 15:15; 1 Cor. 3:10; 15:10; Gal. 2:9; Eph. 3:7-8), not the gift of righteousness (cf. Romans 4). This refers to Paul's conversion and call to be apostle to the Gentiles (cf. Acts 9:15; Rom. 1:1,5; Gal. 1:15-16; 2:7-8; Eph. 3:1-2,8; 1 Tim. 2:7; 2 Tim. 4:17).

"I say to everyone among you" The warning of Rom. 12:3 is for all Christians, not just leaders.

"not to think more highly of himself"

"as God has allotted to each" This is an aorist active indicative. Believers do not choose their spiritual gifts (cf. 1 Cor. 7:17; 12:11; Eph. 4:7). They are given by the Spirit at salvation for the common good (cf. 1 Cor. 12:7). The gifts of the Spirit are not merit badges which exalt the individual, but servant towels so that each believer may serve the body of Christ, the church.

"a measure of faith" This referred to one's ability to function effectively in their spiritual giftedness (cf. Rom. 12:6). To be healthy, spiritual giftedness must be exercised by means of the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Rom. 12:9-12; Gal. 5:22-23). The gifts are the ministries of Jesus divided among His followers, while the fruit is the mind of Christ. Both are necessary for effective ministry.

I haven’t been following along so I’m not sure what path a measure of faith has taken. A few things that stand out to me. One is given by the same spirit…the first verse warning to not think to highly of yourself. Because God has given every man a measure of Faith…Paul saying this through the Grace delivered unto him. (Imo)

This makes me think of to walk (paraphrasing) in your own measure and not boasting in another’s measure. To me this could mean with the first of not thinking too highly of yourself by measuring yourself against others. 2 Corinthians 10:12-13 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. [13] But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

To me it still goes back to building upon the foundation of Christ and to be careful how you build. What is distributed a measure of faith distributed of God to us…not for destruction but for edification of His body, for the building up of His body which growth on the foundation which God laid which is Christ. Still going back to the warnings of what is built on the foundation of Christ with the repeated warning of “be careful how you build” and “not to think too highly of yourself”.
Ephesians 4:12-15 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

This to me puts perspective on what is “I press toward the high mark for the prize”: the edification of the body of Christ, till we all come into unity of Faith, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Philippians 3:13-16 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. [15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. [16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained(a measure), let us walk by the same rule(distributed measure given of God), let us mind the same thing.(that Christ did set His mind on).

 

[amigo de christo]

James 1:3 knowing that proving of your faith worketh patience. Yes, it's ours but only because He gave/is giving it to us, by His Spirit.

it was GOD alone who led me to Christ . He put that desire into my heart . One day i was the old man as usual
and then Came the LORD and flipped me around and put a new desire into my heart to SEEK HIM OUT .
There is nothing i can boast in , BUT THE LORD HIMSELF .
I still remember that very day in may . I had woke up that morning the old man
but later that afternoon GOD began a Work in my heart . TO HE be all the glory . IT was not I who drew me ,
my flesh did not draw me , THE LORD did this . And HOW i THANK HIM SO FOR IT . Let all that has breath
praise and thank and rejoice in the glorious Lord . When i ponder and think
upon the beauty of the LORD and His saving Grace , I see real clearly this came not of me , BUT OF GOD .
THERE is nothing i can point too , BUT GOD , HIS CHRIST . And the dire necessity of His grace daily which guides
me and builds me up . David once said , OH LORD take not thy Spirit from ME , lest i become as one that goes down into the PIT .
OH how TRUE THAT IS . we can do nothing without HIM . Wait there is one thing we can
do without Him , FAIL AND FALL . IN HE ALONE is our strength , In HE alone is our help . ONLY LET US HEED THE SPIRIT
and not the wicked flesh .

 

[amigo de christo]

To know & hold to the doctrines of Christ / the doctrines of God is NOT indoctrination but is called obedience.

While God WILL NOT force any to believe the truth, those that ARE TRULY seeking the TRUTH will BELIEVE the truth when the Spirit bears witness.

This constant ya yaing to PROVE to someone who refuses, denies, twist & rabbit holes the word of God is fruitless,.

Rebuke, exhort then dust them from our feet for IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD CANT CONVINCE OF THE TRUTH ,then we are a wasted effort. It doesn't say to forever be trying to convince.....

Don't cast your pearls before swine; since swine CANNOT DISCERN BETWEEN A PEARL & A TURD !

Very hard indeed it would be to argue against that last line .
For i see many embracing the TURD of the all inclusive many path lie as though it were a pearl of great price .
Folks dont realize what this very religoin has done . IT REMOVED the CORNERSTONE which offends , JESUS CHRIST
and replaced HIM with this cornerstone of a love which cannot save .
THEY have replaced the dire need to believe on CHRIST JESUS , with this love which says
believe as thou wilt and love one another .
BUT JESUS SAID , BELIEVE ON ME and love one another . THEY REMOVED that PART .
The DIRE NEED to BELIEVE ON HIM . Try as man might to make his own building, his own religoin , his own path
to GOD , IT WONT BE FOUND , it cannot be done . THERE is but ONE CORNERSTONE , HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST
this other cornerstone of diverse stones cannot and will not save them nor be able to deliver them
from the WRATH of GOD and of HIS CHRIST . ONLY FAITH in CHRIST can save a soul .

 

[Lizbeth]

it was GOD alone who led me to Christ . He put that desire into my heart . One day i was the old man as usual
and then Came the LORD and flipped me around and put a new desire into my heart to SEEK HIM OUT .
There is nothing i can boast in , BUT THE LORD HIMSELF .
I still remember that very day in may . I had woke up that morning the old man
but later that afternoon GOD began a Work in my heart . TO HE be all the glory . IT was not I who drew me ,
my flesh did not draw me , THE LORD did this . And HOW i THANK HIM SO FOR IT . Let all that has breath
praise and thank and rejoice in the glorious Lord . When i ponder and think
upon the beauty of the LORD and His saving Grace , I see real clearly this came not of me , BUT OF GOD .
THERE is nothing i can point too , BUT GOD , HIS CHRIST . And the dire necessity of His grace daily which guides
me and builds me up . David once said , OH LORD take not thy Spirit from ME , lest i become as one that goes down into the PIT .
OH how TRUE THAT IS . we can do nothing without HIM . Wait there is one thing we can
do without Him , FAIL AND FALL . IN HE ALONE is our strength , In HE alone is our help . ONLY LET US HEED THE SPIRIT
and not the wicked flesh .

Amen brother. My testimony is much the same.......out of the blue He drew me, then one minute I didn't believe but the next minute I just did and knew at the time that it was not of my own, but it was a work of God! Even being able to discern that, was from Him, not of my own! Praise the Lord, I am so glad He came to me that day!

 

[Behold]

I count not myself to have apprehended:

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect,

Notice that Paul says he has not "apprehended" and then says that He is one of the perfect.

What's that mean?

It means that Paul has not yet been bodily resurrected (apprehended), so, he can't do that for Himself, yet, he has attained perfection as He teaches it and also has attained it.

What is that?

Its having the knowledge of God......which is to have the same knowledge that God has, regarding how God sees all the born again as "made righteous", and never does God see the born again as anything other than "the righteousness of God in Christ".

So, to have that MIND, that understanding, is how to exist as what Paul refers to as "as many as be perfect".

Its not about lifestyle, its about possessing REVELATION Knowledge, regarding what it means to have become a "new creation in Christ'.