How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Laurina]

This is rich. Well, nothing they mentioned in Sunday school...that's for sure. I suppose this lack of knowledge leads you to condemn people who are not condemned and champion people who are such.

There are 4 eternal destines for people not two. The immature will react to this as it doesn't fit with their indoctrination.

You are not including outer darkness. Nor the saved in the nations. (Besides those that are cast into the lake of fire and the saints who dwell in the holy city)

Now the hypocrites are saved, as by fire...but are not permitted among the nations (no righteousness) nor are they allowed into the holy city (no holiness). They are not cast into the lake of fire because they are saved. Jesus said that ALL who believe in Him will be saved.

Among the saved are 3 different destinies. Just like in the parable of the Sower (a key parable to all the others) we see 4 kinds of soil with 3 among those who believe.

The shallow soil represent the name it claim it crowd...who begin with joy...but then get offended by the truth.
The weedy soil are the righteous who care too much for the things of this world (including family, people)
The good soil are those rare few who bear eternal fruit. (these have forsaken all to win Christ)

Since there are so few who listen to the words of Jesus...it's probably of no use to cite Rev. 22:11 (which I take as authoritative and a key to understanding the whole of scriptures concerning who we are and how we will be judged)

Hey!!!... I like the linking of Rev. 22:11 to Genesis 2:10!!

Thanks, @Epikospos!

 

[marks]

Wow. Jesus is the one who said to fear He who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Is there another alternative between the lake of fire and eternal life? I don't see any in scripture. Either wrath or not appointed to wrath....is there something in between?? Either death or life...what else is there?

That's the choice . . . death or life. Unless you are reborn, you remain dead in sin. God is the God of the living, not the dead. If you remain dead, you will end up in the lake of fire with death and the devil and all who love them.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Hey!!!....that would correspond to Rev. 22:11 and probably also the verse in Genesis 2:10!!

Thanks, @Epikospos!

“Let the one being unrighteous, let him be unrighteous noch (still); and let the one who is filthy be filthy noch, and let the tzaddik be a tzaddik noch, [DANIEL 9:25] and let the kadosh yitkadesh noch (holy person be sanctified still). [YECHEZKEL 3:27; DANIEL 12:10]

Nothing here re 4 eternal destinies

Gematria
The gematria of dalet is four. Four represents the Matriarchs: Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah. It also represents the four created worlds as explained in Kabbalah: Atzilus, Beriah, Yetzirah and Asiyah. In addition, dalet signifies the four basic elements of Creation: fire (energy), air (gas), water (liquid) and earth (solid). Four also represents the holiday of Passover: the four cups of wine, the four children, the four questions.

I know you are standing with your rabbi--explain the 4 eternal destinies-not found in Hebrew-nor in Scriptures.-quote your rabbi full eisegesis-not partly

You want to be smart? Come, let's "reason" together.

 

[amigo de christo]

Can a person who has known God walk away from Him? God will not leave us or forsake us but what did Adam and Eve do? Was not the first man Adam a son of God who walked away from God by his own disobedience?

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38 Did Adam not die when he ate of the forbidden tree? And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:16-17 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:6

SIN SEPERATES FROM GOD . And the ultimate SIN of all is to teach unbelief in CHRIST .
I pray to GOD the FATHER of our LORD and savoir JESUS CHRIST
that folks who have fallen for the social all inclusive cant save gospel will repent of it asap .
They teach unbelief . They say one does not even have to BELIEVE ON JESUS .
They offer up a false love that cannot save . FOR it is a love preached and invented by the dragon
and has led to disobediance unto GOD HIMSELF . GOD , GOD who said THIS IS MY WELL BELOVED SON
HEAR YE HIM . GOD said that . not man . GOD DID .
GOD testified of HIS SON , through the SON and even on the moutain to the apostles .
He who believes not the TESTIMONY that GOD gave of HIS son has made GOD a LIAR .
But todays gospel says , NO NEED TO BELIEVE IN HE whom GOD DID SEND , just do some good works
and have some common ground . Its all a lie amadeus .
You are loved my friend . I have loved you myfriend since i first seen you on this site .
But i am telling us if we believe in a love that makes void the dire necessity to believe in CHRIST , IT IS NO LOVE
Its the dragon giving us the sensual carnal version of what IT claims LOVE IS .

 

[Johann]

How many dark places still within you or within me? How much Light? How much of our little speck of earth/dirt is habitable by God as is?
Is anyone growing darker? Is anyone growing brighter from the Light of God?

Has God ever changed? But man, can he be changed for better or for worse? Can a son of God change for the worse? What about that first man Adam? Did he, a son of God, move toward or into darkness? Is God a respecter of persons?

What is your signature saying @amadeus and do I detect that you are a bit disheartened, depressed in spirit?
If so, so am I, rarely have seen the mountaintops, always in the valley--be we can encourage ourselves IN the Lord, or be encouraged reading Scriptures--Ephesians a great, great letter.
J.

 

[Laurina]

“Let the one being unrighteous, let him be unrighteous noch (still); and let the one who is filthy be filthy noch, and let the tzaddik be a tzaddik noch, [DANIEL 9:25] and let the kadosh yitkadesh noch (holy person be sanctified still). [YECHEZKEL 3:27; DANIEL 12:10]

Nothing here re 4 eternal destinies

Gematria
The gematria of dalet is four. Four represents the Matriarchs: Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah. It also represents the four created worlds as explained in Kabbalah: Atzilus, Beriah, Yetzirah and Asiyah. In addition, dalet signifies the four basic elements of Creation: fire (energy), air (gas), water (liquid) and earth (solid). Four also represents the holiday of Passover: the four cups of wine, the four children, the four questions.

I know you are standing with your rabbi--explain the 4 eternal destinies-not found in Hebrew-nor in Scriptures.-quote your rabbi full eisegesis-not partly

You want to be smart? Come, let's "reason" together.

The only One I want to "reason" with is the Lord.

Isaiah 1:15-20
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

 

[amigo de christo]

That's the choice . . . death or life. Unless you are reborn, you remain dead in sin. God is the God of the living, not the dead. If you remain dead, you will end up in the lake of fire with death and the devil and all who love them.

Much love!

And there is but one way to be REBORN .
Man cannot attain to it through good works
man cannot be born again through his own works .
THERE is but one way . THE ONLY WAY . HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST . Let no man fool you my friend .
Coming to budda and doing good is not BEING BORN AGAIN
coming to any other religion and doing good works IS NOT BEING REBORN .
Even cornelious who prayed to the ONE TRUE GOD of the jews , who did many good works
many prayers and many alms to the poor , had not yet been REBORN . HE HAD TO HEAR something
THE GOSPEL and HE HAD TO BELIEVE IN THAT , IN CHRIST .
It will be an ice cold day in the lake of fire , LONG before i say otherwise .

 

[amigo de christo]

What is your signature saying @amadeus and do I detect that you are a bit disheartened, depressed in spirit?
If so, so am I, rarely have seen the mountaintops, always in the valley--be we can encourage ourselves IN the Lord, or be encouraged reading Scriptures--Ephesians a great, great letter.
J.

Imagine HOW JESUS must have felt . All HE did was good , all HE desired was life for the peoples
all HE did was speak TRUTH
and yet many hated him , many called him the devil , the accuser of the brethren . But not the lambs . only those
whose evil HE exposed .

 

[Johann]

The only One I want to "reason" with is the Lord.

Quoting scriptures all you want, everyone can quote scriptures, yes?

If you have true discernment, why can't you discern error from truth?-or do you have the excousia to do so?

DISCERN, v.t. s as z. [L., to separate or distinguish, Gr.]
1. To separate by the eye, or by the understanding. Hence,
2. To distinguish; to see the difference between two or more things; to discriminate; as, to discern the blossom-buds from the leaf-buds of plants.
Discern thou what is thine--Gen 31.
3. To make the difference.
For nothing else discerns the virtue or the vice.
4. To discover; to see; to distinguish by the eye.
I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding. Prov 7.
5. To discover by the intellect; to distinguish; hence, to have knowledge of; to judge.
So is my lord the king to discern good and bad. 2 Sam 14.
A wise mans heart discerneth time and judgment. Eccl 8.
DISCERN, v.i.
1. To see or understand the difference; to make distinction; as, to discern between good and evil, truth and falsehood.
2. To have judicial cognizance.
Webster.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

But solid okhel is for the mevugarim (mature ones, adults), the ones whose keilim (faculties) have been trained by practice for distinguishing both HaTov and HaRah. [T.N. In the next chp a warning is given to the Messianic Jew who re-submits Yehoshua to re-trial and reassigns the original verdict of deceiver: no re-rebirth, no rerepentance for such shmad]

You are in agreement with your rabbi Epi, correct?

 

[marks]

Adam was perfect. and tested by God. Adam failed. We all failed.. We all still fail..

That's different than walking away.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfect". Adam was corruptible.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you could read the bible from a non-religiously indoctrinated perspective, you would see that there are ALWAYS the four being cited. It begins in Genesis 2 with the 4 rivers that flow out of the garden...all the way to Rev. 22:11. If you were a little more perceptive you wouldn't mock at the truth which could actually save you.

You got this stuff from your religiousity.

There are only 2 states between man and god. Your either dead or alive..

there has never been 4

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Notice how the shallow soil gets offended at the truth. The superficial nature of the modern gospel has spoiled people from being able to tolerate sound doctrine. The gospel has been watered down to such an extent where the truth is mocked...and lies are upheld. Truly we are experiencing the sign of the times and everything we read about in the bible concerning the end times.

Your gospel is the one where n one can know if they are born again, and people do not walk in the spirit.

Talk about a gospel with no power.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The only One I want to "reason" with is the Lord.

Then study John 3 until you can’t study it anymore.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfect". Adam was corruptible.

Much love!

He was still perfect before God. And thus alive to him.

He died after he sinned..

 

[[email protected]]

This is rich. Well, nothing they mentioned in Sunday school...that's for sure. I suppose this lack of knowledge leads you to condemn people who are not condemned and champion people who are such.

There are 4 eternal destines for people not two. The immature will react to this as it doesn't fit with their indoctrination.

You are not including outer darkness. Nor the saved in the nations. (Besides those that are cast into the lake of fire and the saints who dwell in the holy city)

Now the hypocrites are saved, as by fire...but are not permitted among the nations (no righteousness) nor are they allowed into the holy city (no holiness). They are not cast into the lake of fire because they are saved. Jesus said that ALL who believe in Him will be saved.

Among the saved are 3 different destinies. Just like in the parable of the Sower (a key parable to all the others) we see 4 kinds of soil with 3 among those who believe.

The shallow soil represent the name it claim it crowd...who begin with joy...but then get offended by the truth.
The weedy soil are the righteous who care too much for the things of this world (including family, people)
The good soil are those rare few who bear eternal fruit. (these have forsaken all to win Christ)

Since there are so few who listen to the words of Jesus...it's probably of no use to cite Rev. 22:11 (which I take as authoritative and a key to understanding the whole of scriptures concerning who we are and how we will be judged)

You are quoting dogmatic eisegetical statements here. Most are incorrect according to scriptural context.

There are only two destinies for mankind. One is eternal. The other is not.

There is no such thing as eternal torment in any form whatsoever.

There is only death for the spiritually unregenerate/unsaved. (Romans 6:23) Torment cannot be practiced upon a dead guy. Nowhere in scriptural context can it be assumed that eternal life is granted to the wicked, for such would be necessary in order to give them an eternal beat-down.

The lake of fire burns forever, but not so that which is thrown into it. That which is thrown into it is consumed. Not even ashes remain. The guiding principle here is the Genesis story of the destruction of the 5 cities of the kingdom of Sodom. They were destroyed forever, meaning they would not rise again. Not even ashes remain as those who visit the site today can testify.

Doctrines of eternal torment REQUIRE that simple words be perverted from their basic meaning into something which they were never meant to convey. These words are; death and fire.

Fire consumes and destroys. It does NOT preserve anything. Anything exposed to fire is destroyed.
Death is total cessation of life. Go to the cemetery and study those buried there. Are any of them exhibiting living processes or are they all being consumed by decomposition and putrefaction?

Words such as 'hell', 'hades' and 'gehenna' are either translational mistakes or doctrinal misconceptions. The word hades is derived from the name of the Greek god of the underworld. Thus Hades is a mythical person, not a place. Likewise the word hell has as its root the Norse god "hel" a female ruler of the underworld. In this instance "hel" is also descriptive of a mythical person, not a place. Finally the Hebrew reference to gehenna is meant to describe a city dump outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem. The city dump is a place where worms and birds consume organic material and fire destroys inorganic material. Once the material is reduced to ashes and smoke there's nothing left of it. This is the purpose of the Lake of Fire - to consume and absolutely destroy that which is destined for death and destruction. Nothing exposed to its destructive capacity survives.

There is no eternal torment because humans do NOT possess an intrinsic nature capable of surviving physical death. Humans die like any sick dog or cockroach.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

References to the Image of God bestowed upon Eve & Adam in the beginning of Genesis also make mention of it being REMOVED in chapter 3 due to their SIN against God. They decided their 'opinions' were of more value than that of God and as a consequence suffered physical and spiritual death. Note that this same Image of God isn't mentioned again in scripture until the New Testament when it is further defined and explained.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15)

Therefore those who surrender to Christ as their Lord and Savior are blessed of God with the indwelling spirit of Jesus - the one true Image of God. Thus the immortal quality of the spiritual life of God is formed in man once again. This is why Jesus and His apostles stressed the importance of the Second Birth. In my humble opinion, its the greatest miracle upon earth since creation itself.

SINNERS and nations do NOT possess the Image of God. Look and see. It is nowhere described as a living quality of either.

Only those of the Second Birth who have surrendered to Jesus and accepted His lordship in their lives are granted the Image of God - the Second Birth. This is what 'second birth' means and this is why it's so important to seek it.

This is not something new. It's basic gospel teaching but teaching which has been forgotten by the church in its mad rush to make itself relevant to society. Such relevance is impossible. All attempts to do so are doomed to failure.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[amigo de christo]

You got this stuff from your religiousity.

There are only 2 states between man and god. Your either dead or alive..

there has never been 4

and theres only one way to be made alive , awake thou that sleepest and CHRIST SHALL GIVE THEE LIGHT .
BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST .
I know i sound like a broken tape recorder , but JESUS ALONE is who i am gonna point to and continue to remind all to do the same

 

[amadeus]

What is your signature saying @amadeus and do I detect that you are a bit disheartened, depressed in spirit?
If so, so am I, rarely have seen the mountaintops, always in the valley--be we can encourage ourselves IN the Lord, or be encouraged reading Scriptures--Ephesians a great, great letter.
J.

Lots of negative events pressing on me since 2018, but each day I must and do press in onto God one more time.

Most recently, last Monday on the way to the Cancer Center [45 miles away] for another scan to see if the cancer is all gone. My son-in-law was driving me and my wife in his heavy duty pickup traveling in cruise control at 65 mph. A large deer jumped over the guardrail and we hit her solidly destroying the radiator and the rolling up the hood to crack the windshield before flying over the cab onto the roadway behind us. The engine immediately died and the brakes kicked in stopped us quickly as my SIL guided us to the side of the roadway. The insurance rated the truck as totaled, but neither I or my SIL in the front seat were injured. My wife received a broken nose and a concussion when the air bag struck her. She is moving slower than me now, but she is up and about and ready to go one more time.

Tomorrow is the replacement appointment for the PET scan. The same three people will be in the vehicle. We do serve a mighty God and as He kept us from worse last week, we pray that He will keep tomorrow as well. I have failed God at times, but He has never failed me.

 

[amadeus]

Imagine HOW JESUS must have felt . All HE did was good , all HE desired was life for the peoples
all HE did was speak TRUTH
and yet many hated him , many called him the devil , the accuser of the brethren . But not the lambs . only those
whose evil HE exposed .

"... O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" Matt 26:39

 

[Johann]

Lots of negative events pressing on me since 2018, but each day I must and do press in onto God one more time.

Most recently, last Monday on the way to the Cancer Center [45 miles away] for another scan to see if the cancer is all gone. My son-in-law was driving me and my wife in his heavy duty pickup traveling in cruise control at 65 mph. A large deer jumped over the guardrail and we hit her solidly destroying the radiator and the rolling up the hood to crack the windshield before flying over the cab onto the roadway behind us. The engine immediately died and the brakes kicked in stopped us quickly as my SIL guided us to the side of the roadway. The insurance rated the truck as totaled, but neither I or my SIL in the front seat were injured. My wife received a broken nose and a concussion when the air bag struck her. She is moving slower than me now, but she is up and about and ready to go one more time.

Tomorrow is the replacement appointment for the PET scan. The same three people will be in the vehicle. We do serve a mighty God and as He kept us from worse last week, we pray that He will keep tomorrow as well. I have failed God at times, but He has never failed me.

I "hear" you my dear friend-Shalom to you and family, in all spheres of your life-body, soul and spirit.

Num 6:24 The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
Num 6:25 The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
Num 6:26 The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

Johann.

 

[ChristisGod]

Episkopos. Still manufacturing your own theology? Four eternal destinies? Is this something the Gnostics cooked up, or did you get that from the Kabbalah?

Yes a modern day gnostic with special mystic revelations.