How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
14,005
21,590
113
66
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Blessings in Christ Jesus Johann! This, I tell you beforehand just like other thing, He will speak to you in the proper season. And you will hear His voice, and He will lead you and guide you unto all righteousness.
People LOVE false prophecy and puffing up of the religious outer man. The hypocrisy is so thick you can cut it with a knife here...and the word of God does that very well.

It's funny how all the cessationists call all true prophecy false and anything that puffs up the flesh...they see as genuine...ignoring the fact that they don't believe in spiritual gifts...unless its a false one. :rolleyes:

It's disgusting really...:astonished:
 
  • Like
Reactions: faithfulness

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,565
9,899
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree, we are justified based on the cross, and yes, Christ redeemed us with his blood. But we are justified by faith, which means God is granting me justification because I put my trust in the cross. According to Paul, through the cross Jesus gained access into the heavenly temple to intercede for the saints as their high priest.

What if Jesus decides not to intercede for me? Then I am lost. Why? Because Jesus didn't satisfy justice at the cross. If he did, then God OWES me life. Instead, God grants me life, if and only if, Jesus wishes it. I am putting my hope and trust in the fact that Jesus actually did ascend to the right hand of the father and that he will, indeed, intercede on my behalf.

Paul argues that mercy trumps justice. Romans 5. We are saved by grace. If we were saved by the satisfaction of justice, it would no longer be grace.

What am I missing?
why would jesus decide not to intercede for you?

You’re justified by GRACE. God can give you GRACE because of the cross..

But he will not force it on you. He wants you to recieve it. You do that in faith

hence we are justified (Saved) By Grace THROUGH faith
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,565
9,899
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why do you assume though that I am in unbelief? Or that I don’t understand how to be born anew? When I say that is not so what you assume? Why do you challenge what I’ve experienced in reality?

I am thankful you posted all that you did. I only quoted halfway down but that does not mean i am purposely ignoring the rest of your post for a reason but instead…I stopped because it was the same thing repeated and I didn’t want to keep quoting to address the same thing over and over.

To me the serpent lifted up is …my old ways. Where He said to look on those old ways of corruption of the body. To me that is why it is the serpent and not Christ that they were told to look at. To see their own condition crucified. To see their own state of dead in their sins. he said see this, look on it and be saved. Many may have turned away in doubt. To me doubting their ways which are lower and from beneath are better and not believing God that the way they are going leads to death. (And all the disorders spoken of earlier in the thread of layers covering the condition of mankind fear of it being be seen). Not trusting what is revealed in looking at the serpent lifted up. Instead yes as you said later rejecting to look at it. This is why I kept going on and on about there is loss. If there isn’t loss …then there would not be those who won’t look for unbelief instead choosing to not see what is crucified. Why looking on a serpent that heals their condition? Because to me it shows their condition in a profound way. Undeniable EVEN when they refuse so they are without excuse, undeniable serpent in a pole that their looking or not looking doesn’t change what is on the pole. This is why I suggest those in unbelief are condemned already. They are condemned in their unbelief doesn’t change what is revealed as the serpent in the pole.

Where only looking at that condition straight on and not looking away to keep it…can one be healed of that condition. Why do you assume I haven’t looked at my condition? What makes you so sure I haven’t repented or put trust in God. To me also the serpent lifted up to bring all things down. A beacon of God is who saves. How is one born again? He who is lifted up, must first come down. To me born again anew of God is getting out of the high seat and taking the lower one. to come down from above…to be born anew of God. What if they looking at the serpent on the pole bowed to it? Or started to worship the serpent on a pole? Making a shrine to it? As a religion? Would they be missing it wasn’t the serpent that saved them but instead God revealing to them their crucified state therefore deliverance from it?Not that the serpent saved them, but God revealing the serpent to them? Saved them.

Other passages that I think of with what you shared is. Looking in the mirror and seeing your own natural face but then to turn from it and to keep going your way. In unbelief that God can heal. Or to continue on therein being changed (healed) …not forgetting the manner of the man you were keeps you from lifting yourself higher than God. Continuing in Christ …looking to Him who saves and heals their diseases of the heart. To me the mirror is NT is another call of the serpent lifted in the pole and the burning bush. A reflection to reveal our condition and need for Him. Another is Adam and Eve…they didn’t want to look but instead hid themselves. Where was the trust in God to look, to step out of where they hid themselves? They lacked one thing yea? One thing He wanted to give unto them…a trust that God is indeed Good. Believing the serpent instead that God is not good.

I keep saying it but you keep disputing it …I recognize my need for Him. To be honest if I were you I would worry more about those who say there is no loss. No giving up taking it as offensive assuming it is pushing some of their money or their possessions or that it is pushing works of the flesh. To me on a Christian board shouting saved by the cross …there should not be any confusion about what is lost is better for what is gained. As the serpent on the pole…
Loss for what is gained. Trust in God. There should be some knowledge of what is hanging up on the pole is that old conversation in the fulfilling our own lust. I keep saying what I feel like here and many want to attack and declare me as one naked when (Imo) if they knew what manner of men they were …they would reveal a little more humility, gratefulness, and mercy towards others. Fully aware what God saved them out from, why is it others on the pole and never them?
You seem to continually take a small simple concept and make it into some long drawn out thing

The serpent is a type of Christ, Who was Hung on a pole..It died so that those in faith who looked up could live. Thats the concept..

The thing it represents is simply life and death. Thats all. Its not all this other stuff.. which is a distraction froim what really matters

We are at any given moment, dead because of sin, or alive because of Christ. There is no other state, that is what the gospel teaches.. we must be born again, why? Because we are dead.

Everything else. How we should live our lives, The power we have over sin, bearing fruit. Having victory over sin. Working for God walking int he spirit etc etc are what comes next.. If one is not born again, made alive, then non of the other stuff matters.
To reveal the state of mankind without Him.
Which is that they are dead. Without hope. Have a limited time. And are lost.
Yet many hear Jump around over others, dancing around on their heads…clucking like chickens at their own righteousness…yes they say it is glorying in the cross of Christ. But if they have been raised from the dead…should they not know …having tasted of the power to come…that God has the power to raise the dead? But instead they deny this power … when they may be clucking over a child of God and picking at whatever weakness they can find to kill that inner man in them to death.
Again, I do not understand what you mean here.. This does not make sense. You keep talking about the inner and outer man.. The inner man is dead. It needs born again. If not, it will die eternally. The outer man is our flesh. If the inner man is not born again, the outer man has supreme power. The inner man will never be righteous or ever see live, it can not enter the kingdom.

Epi talks about a higher plane. There is no higher plane. Again their is death (condemnation) or there is life.. There is no other state

the one who is born again is saved is anointed with the Holy Spirit. And can immediately walk in the spirit and immediately change their lives through the power of God.

We will get to Zion after this lifetime when we are ressurected and we appear in the new jerusalem (zion) with Christ.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,721
2,633
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
why would jesus decide not to intercede for you?

You’re justified by GRACE. God can give you GRACE because of the cross..

But he will not force it on you. He wants you to recieve it. You do that in faith

hence we are justified (Saved) By Grace THROUGH faith
Maybe not. One can not presume.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
14,005
21,590
113
66
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
why would jesus decide not to intercede for you?

You’re justified by GRACE. God can give you GRACE because of the cross..

But he will not force it on you. He wants you to recieve it. You do that in faith

hence we are justified (Saved) By Grace THROUGH faith
You are way off. God didn't invent a salvation scheme that you just have to give assent to. Luther did that. He invented the scheme ...and the flesh LOVES it. And.... it is totally false.

You have been deceived by the doctrines of men. I think the modern Protestant churches are full of this kind of delusion.

Being saved by grace through faith is being given the power to walk as Jesus walked. Anything less is still the flesh.

But to claim to be saved by grace IN your sins....is a damnable heresy. Judgment is coming.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: faithfulness

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,565
9,899
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Maybe not. One can not presume.
They can read his promises and trust in them

He gave you eternal life
He said he would never leave nor forsake
He said we are spared
From Gods wrath
He even gave us his spirit as a pledge u til resurrection day
That’s the power that keeps us going. Other than this hope. We really have no faith or hope
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,565
9,899
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are way off. God didn't invent a salvation scheme that you just have to give assent to. Luther did that. He invented the scheme ...and the flesh LOVES it. And.... it is totally false.

You have been deceived by the doctrines of men. I think the modern Protestant churches are full of this kind of delusion.

being saved by grace through faith is being given the power to walk as Jesus walked. Anything less is still the flesh.

But to claim to be saved by grace IN your sins....is a damnable heresy. Judgment is coming.
Dude I don’t know where you came up with this crap but you’re wrong. While yea. It enables us to walk as Jesus walked. It also saves us. It makes us alive in him. It makes us his child it makes us justified

If your not born again you can deceive yourself into thinking you walk as Jesus walked but that’s all you are doing your deceived

And Get off the Luther protest and crap. Your not Catholic. From what I can see. Unless or later day saints. You’re not even a church.

So Stick to the word and stop trying to deflect by diverting people’s attention with your faulty claims. You could not even give the proper responses to God. You have only three. When there are more (I had to show a fourth one to show you were wrong)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

ChristisGod

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2020
7,046
3,949
113
65
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dude I don’t know where you came up with this crap but you’re wrong. While yea. It enables us to walk as Jesus walked. It also saves us. It makes us alive in him. It makes us his child it makes us justified

If your not born again you can deceive yourself into thinking you walk as Jesus walked but that’s all you are doing your deceived

And Get off the Luther protest and crap. Your not Catholic. From what I can see. Unless or later day saints. You’re not even a church.

So Stick to the word and stop trying to deflect by diverting people’s attention with your faulty claims. You could not even give the proper responses to God. You have only three. When there are more (I had to show a fourth one to show you were wrong)
He is obsessed with a strawman since no one here I know follows luther or is Lutheran . He is beating a dead horse . And rejects Jesus church set up by our Lord and the Apostle's. Lone Rangers are always in error having no accountability.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Keturah and Johann
J

Johann

Guest
I hear what you are saying, but in my mind justice and mercy are polar opposites: Grace and satisfaction are polar opposites. Either we are justified in light of our faith, or we are justified in light of the fact that my sins have been punished. It can't be both.
It's the same, actually, and you haven't come back to me-are you "redefying atonement/kapporet?"
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,406
5,866
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Something like this?
Rom_2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Beareth witness with our spirit (συμμαρτυρεῖ τῶ πνεύματι ἡμῶν)

This rendering assumes the concurrent testimony of the human spirit with that of the divine Spirit.

Others, however, prefer to render to our spirit, urging that the human spirit can give no testimony until acted upon by the Spirit of God.
Vincent


"Beareth witness with our spirit," (summarteurei to Pneumati hemon) "witnesses in harmony with our spirit," or tells our spirit, bears testimony by the fruit of peace and joy that he brings to our spirits, our consciousness of will and affection for God and holiness, Gal_5:22-23; Rom_5:5.


Rom_9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
In Christ (en Christōi). Paul really takes a triple oath here so strongly is he stirred. He makes a positive affirmation in Christ, a negative one (not lying), the appeal to his conscience as Corinthians-witness (sunmarturousēs, genitive absolute as in Rom_2:15 which see) “in the Holy Spirit.”

Rev., bearing witness with me. See on Rom_8:16. Concurring with my testimony. Morison remarks that Paul speaks of conscience as if it were something distinct from himself, and he cites Adam Smith's phrase, “the man within the breast.”

Where and how?
I believe it is because our spirit and His Spirit have become one, so we can discern His witness in the inner man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks and GTW27
J

Johann

Guest
I'm not much of a researcher and use Blueletterbible.org in a limited way to look up verses and check definitions. That's about as far as my 'scholarship' goes I'm afraid.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out. :)
Just be very careful @Lizbeth-we don't want to "redefine" one of the most fundamental doctrines-justification.



1. dikaios = just, righteous. From dike , right (see Ap. 177. 4). Occ. eighty times; forty transl. "righteous"; thirty-three "just"; five times "right"; and thrice "meet". In two places (Rom_3:8. Heb_2:2) "just" is the rendering of endikos . No other word in N.T. for "just", or "righteous".

2. dikaioo is to set forth as righteous, to justify. Occ. forty times, of which fifteen are in Romans. Always rendered "justify", except Rom_6:7 ("freed"), and Rev_22:11 ("be righteous"). The participle is transl. "justifier" in Rom_3:26.
3. dikaiosune = righteousness. Occ. ninety-two times, of which thirty-six are in Romans. Always transl. "righteousness". Other words to which the same transl. is given are dikaioma (see below), and euthutes , which latter occ. only in Heb_1:8.
4. dikaioma is a righteous ordinance, a decree (of acquittal). See Ap. 177. 4. Rendered "righteousness" in Rom_2:26; Rom_5:18; Rom_8:4. Rev_19:8; and "ordinance" in Luk_1:6. Heb_9:1; Heb_9:10 : "judgment", Rom_1:32. Rev_15:4 : "justification", Rom_5:16.
5. dikaiosis = justification. Occ. only in Rom_4:25; Rom_5:18. The only other word rendered "justification" is dikaioma (see 4), in Rom_5:16.
Bullinger-an excellent source.

JUSTIFICATION
(1) By Faith
Gen_15:6; Act_13:39; Rom_3:28; Rom_5:1; Rom_5:18; Rom_9:30; 1Co_6:11
Gal_3:24
--SEE Faith (3), FAITH
Salvation (3), SALVATION
Grace (3), GRACE, DIVINE
(2) Of Self Impossible
Job_9:2; Job_25:4; Psa_143:2; Jer_2:22; Eze_14:14; Rom_3:20; Gal_5:4
--SEE Good Works, WORK AND WORKERS, RELIGIOUS
Grace, GRACE, DIVINE
Self-condemnation, SELF-CONDEMNATION
Who can Stand? SELF-JUSTIFICATION
--of Self Attempted. SEE Excuses, SELF-JUSTIFICATION
& SELF-JUSTIFICATION

THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS
FOR
"JUDGMENT".


1. aistesis = perception. Occurs only in Php_1:9, where A.V. reads "sense" in the margin and R.V. reads "discernment".

2. gnome , from ginosko (Ap. 132, ii) = opinion, the result of knowledge. Occurs nine times: translated "purposed" in Act_20:3; "judgment" in 1Co_1:10; 1Co_7:25; 1Co_7:40; "advice" in 2Co_8:10; "mind" in Phm_1:14; Rev_17:13; "will" in Rev_17:17; and (with a verb) "agree" in Rev_17:17.

3. dikatoma = that which is deemed right or just ( dikaios ). Occurs ten times: translated "judgment" in Rom_1:32; Rev_15:4; elsewhere "ordinance", righteousness", and once "justification" (Rom_5:16)

4. dike = right, as established custom or usage, hence a suit at law, penalty, vengeance. Occurs four times: translated "judgment" in Act_25:15; "vengeance" in Act_28:4; Jud_1:7; and "punished" in 2Th_1:9 (see R.V.)

5. hemera = day, rendered "judgment" in 1Co_4:3 (see A.V. marg.).

6. krima = This and the two following words are akin to the verb krino (Ap. 122. 1). Krima occurs twenty-eight times, and is rendered "judgment", "damnation", or "condemnation", save in Luk_24:20; 1Co_6:7; and Rev_18:20, where see notes.

7. krisis = a separating, a judgment, especially of judicial proceedings. Our English word "crisis" means a turning point. The word occurs forty-eight times: translated "damnation" (Mat_23:33; Mar_3:29; Joh_5:29), "condemnation" (Joh_3:19; Joh_5:24), "accusation" (2Pe_2:11; Jud_1:9), and everywhere else "judgment".

8. kriterion = the place, or means of judgment. It occurs three times (1Co_6:2; 1Co_6:4; Jam_2:6) This word we have also adopted into the English language as a "standard" for judging.


A member here is splitting chen-grace, mercy, loving-kindness as polar opposites apart-when-

Exo_33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Exo_34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.


Sam Samoun

Shalom
J.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: marks and Lizbeth
J

Johann

Guest
I believe it is because our spirit and His Spirit have become one, so we can discern His witness in the inner man.

I believe it is because our spirit and His Spirit have become one, so we can discern His witness in the inner man.
I think we can let this one go-I was deeply hurt, emotionally and spiritually by the Protestant Charismatic Movement-speaking in glossalia a must, confession, casting out "demons" etc.
Today, too many claim they "hear voices" and that is a red flag to me-I don't discount the possibility of something supernaturally, but here are too many spiritual giants with "experiences" that makes me wonder where in the world I fit in the body of Christ, IF I fit in at all.
Shalom
J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks and Cassandra
J

Johann

Guest
I'm not much of a researcher and use Blueletterbible.org in a limited way to look up verses and check definitions. That's about as far as my 'scholarship' goes I'm afraid.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out. :)
One question--

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
KJV

In what sense did God forgive iniquity--

See LXX-Exo 34:7 and keeping justice and mercy for thousands, taking away iniquity, and unrighteousness, and sins; and he will not clear the guilty; bringing the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and to the children's children, to the third and fourth generation.

Problem solved--not only forgiving iniquity-but the taking it away entirely
nâśâ' / nâsâh
BDB Definition:
1) to lift, bear up, carry, take
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to lift, lift up
1a2) to bear, carry, support, sustain, endure
1a3) to take, take away, carry off, forgive
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be lifted up, be exalted
1b2) to lift oneself up, rise up
1b3) to be borne, be carried
1b4) to be taken away, be carried off, be swept away
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to lift up, exalt, support, aid, assist
1c2) to desire, long (figuratively)
1c3) to carry, bear continuously
1c4) to take, take away
1d) (Hithpael) to lift oneself up, exalt oneself
1e) (Hiphil)
1e1) to cause one to bear (iniquity)
1e2) to cause to bring, have brought
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root


Just compare different translations--נֹצֵ֥ר H5341 no·Tzer Keeping חֶ֙סֶד֙ H2617 che·sed mercy לָאֲלָפִ֔ים H505 la·'a·la·Fim, for thousands נֹשֵׂ֥א H5375 no·Se forgiving עָוֹ֛ן H5771 'a·Von iniquity

forgiving iniquity, and transgression, and sin; the word used signifies a lifting it up, and taking it away: thus Jehovah has taken it from the sinner, and put it on his Son, who has borne it, and made satisfaction for it; and in so doing has taken it quite away, so as to be seen no more; and, through the application of his blood to the conscience of a sinner, it is taken away from thence, and removed as far as the east is from the west; from whence it appears, that it is in Christ, and for his sake, that God forgives sin, even through his blood, righteousness, sacrifice, and satisfaction; and this forgiveness is of all sin, of all sorts of sin, original or actual, greater or lesser, public or private, open or secret, of omission or commission, of heart, lip, and life. The Jews sometimes distinguish these three words; "iniquity", they say, signifies sins through pride and presumption; "transgression" intends rebellions against God; and "sin", what is committed through error and mistake (i); and much to this sense is Jarchi's interpretation of these words; they no doubt include all manner of sin, which God for Christ's sake forgives:
Gill


SIN, TRESPASS, INIQUITY, &c.



There are many synonymous words to represent the outworking of man's fallen nature. As these are not always translated by the same English word, it is necessary that we should distinguish them. The student, by reference to the following list, will be able to do so :--

1. chat'a , to sin ; to miss the mark (as in Jdg_20:16). Also of the feet, to stumble and fall (Pro_19:2). Hence, morally, a coming short , blameworthiness -- not necessarily willful. An act of thought, word, or deed, not a condition. Usually (but by no means always) rendered sin, and other words also so rendered.

2. 'asham , trespass , to sin through error or ignorance. Cp. Lev_4:13; Lev_5:2-3. Num_5:6-7. Jdg_21:22. 1Ch_21:3. 2Ch_19:10; 2Ch_28:10; 2Ch_28:13. 'Asham is a breach of commandment, done in ignorance, but, when the guilt is proved, requiring atonement.

3. 'aven , iniquity, specially connected with idolatry. Used because an idol is nothing and vanity (cp. Hos_4:15; Hos_5:8; Hos_10:5; Hos_10:8. Amo_5:5, marg.). Hence, 'aven comes to mean vanity (cp. Job_15:35. Psa_10:7. Pro_22:8, &c.). The word has many renderings, which are pointed out in the passages when it occurs. 'Aven is rather a course of bad conduct flowing from the evil desires of fallen nature, that breaches of the law as such.

4. 'avah , perverseness , from the root to be bent , or crooked . English wrong , i.e. wrung out of course, expresses it (cp. 1Sa_20:30. 2Sa_19:19. 1Ki_8:47. Job_33:37, &c.).

5. 'amal , trouble , labor , toil . Sin viewed in the light of the trouble it causes; and of its burden ; and its grievousness (Isa_10:1. Hab_1:3). Often rendered perverseness (Num_23:21), also mischief (Job_15:35).

6. 'aval , unjust , unfairness, sin in its nature as deceitful , dishonesty, that which is not equal and right, unfairness in dealings. Rendered unjust (Psa_43:1; Psa_82:2. Pro_29:27. Isa_26:10), unrighteous (Lev_19:15; Lev_19:35).

7. 'abar , to pass beyond, transgress. Hence, transgression (Psa_17:3. Hos_6:7; Hos_8:1).

8. ra'a' , wicked , injurious . From its root, which indicates its nature as breaking up all that is good or desirable; injurious to all others. In Greek poneros , evil , or kakos , bad . Hence especially of moral depravity and corruption, and lewdness. English "good-for-nothing" (1Sa_17:28), naughty (2Ki_2:19. Pro_20:14. Jer_24:2).

9. pash'a , revolt , rebellion . Sin against lawful authority. Often rendered transgression (Psa_51:13. Pro_28:21. Isa_43:27). In Pro_10:12 the action of love or mercy shown stands in strong contrast to this character of the sin.

10. rasha' , wickedness , in the sense of the restless activity of fallen nature (Job_3:17. Isa_53:9; Isa_57:20-21); where it refers to the activity of the impious and ungodly, or robbers.

11. ma'al , treachery , unfaithfulness , breach of trust , often rendered trespass and transgression. It is used of Achan (Jos_7:1; Jos_22:20). Cp. Jos_22:16. 2Ch_26:18; 2Ch_28:22; 2Ch_33:19. Ezr_9:2; Ezr_9:4. Neh_13:27, &c.

12. shagag , erring from imprudence, rashness, being deceived, not willfully; and shagah, erring willfully through passion or wine, hence, to go astray . As sin it is to be distinguished from presumptuous or high-handed sin. Cp. Lev_4:13. Num_15:22, &c., with Num_15:30. Psa_119:21.

13. zimmah , meditated , wickedness , plotted, planned, and designed; wicked, or lewd purpose, especially of sins of unchastity.

14. chasad = shameful. A Homonym , meaning (1) Here, and Job_37:13 (where it is rendered "mercy" in A.V. and R.V.). But "lightning" is not "mercy" but chastisement. (2) The other meaning is mercy , lovingkindness , or grace . See note on Lev_20:14.

15. shal , fault , committed inadvertently through negligence.



Powerful, and worthy to believe--and now you can compare extra resources to see what they say.

I speak "Biblianese" and use biblical terminologies-that's me, "narrow- minded-a fool for Christ Jesus, our great God and Savior. Hope this is helpful sister.

J.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,800
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2Co 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
2Co 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
  • 2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.


    Henceforth (apo tou nun). From the time that we gained this view of Christ’s death for us.

    After the flesh (kata sarka). According to the flesh, the fleshy way of looking at men. He, of course, knows men “in the flesh (en tēi sarki), but Paul is not speaking of that.

    Worldly standards and distinctions of race, class, cut no figure now with Paul (Gal_3:28) as he looks at men from the standpoint of the Cross of Christ.
    Even though we have known Christ after the flesh (ei kai egnōkamen kata sarka Christon). Concessive clause (ei kai, if even or also) with perfect active indicative. Paul admits that he had once looked at Christ kata sarka, but now no longer does it. Obviously he uses kata sarka in precisely the same sense that he did in 2Co_5:15 about men. He had before his conversion known Christ kata sarka, according to the standards of the men of his time, the Sanhedrin and other Jewish leaders. He had led the persecution against Jesus till Jesus challenged and stopped him (Act_9:4). That event turned Paul clean round and he no longer knows Christ in the old way kata sarka. Paul may or may not have seen Jesus in the flesh before his death, but he says absolutely nothing on that point here.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Him who knew no sin (ton mē gnonta hamartian). Definite claim by Paul that Jesus did not commit sin, had no personal acquaintance (mē gnonta, second aorist active participle of ginōskō) with it.

Jesus made this claim for himself (Joh_8:46). This statement occurs also in 1Pe_2:22; Heb_4:15; Heb_7:26; 1Jn_3:5. Christ was and is “a moral miracle” (Bernard) and so more than mere man.

He made to be sin (hamartian epoiēsen). The words “to be” are not in the Greek. “Sin” here is the substantive, not the verb. God “treated as sin” the one “who knew no sin.” But he knew the contradiction of sinners (Heb_12:3).

We may not dare to probe too far into the mystery of Christ’s suffering on the Cross, but this fact throws some light on the tragic cry of Jesus just before he died: “My God, My God, why didst thou forsake me?” (Mat_27:46).

That we might become (hina hēmeis genōmetha). Note “become.” This is God’s purpose (hina) in what he did and in what Christ did. Thus alone can we obtain God’s righteousness (Rom_1:17).

Too many here probing the raz/ of YHVH in Christ, I'm not saying you @Jim B but if you read carefully, we have some here who actually have a conversation with God-a hotline to heaven-hearing Kol

--and "various kapporah's" when there there is only yachid Kapporah.


Later-
I have no idea what you're trying to say in this lengthy post.

Anyone who prays has a conversation with God.

And Jesus didn't speak in 17th Century Englyshe.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,800
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think we can let this one go-I was deeply hurt, emotionally and spiritually by the Protestant Charismatic Movement-speaking in glossalia a must, confession, casting out "demons" etc.
Today, too many claim they "hear voices" and that is a red flag to me-I don't discount the possibility of something supernaturally, but here are too many spiritual giants with "experiences" that makes me wonder where in the world I fit in the body of Christ, IF I fit in at all.
Shalom
J.
I too was hurt -- by the legalism of the Pentecostal church. I left that church and went to a charismatic, nondenominational church and found it to my liking: people actually found freedom in Christ.

I spoke in tongues -- glossolalia -- right from the start, and still do years later. It is a gift from God, but it should never be required of anyone. And I have witnessed the casting out of demons. In a sense, that was how I was saved. I was healed in the hospital by Jesus.

I don't know of anyone who has heard voices, although God has spoken to me directly on several occasions. I "heard" Him, although it was not an actual audible voice speaking.

=> Do not be put off by various gifts from God -- or lack thereof. <= You fit into the body of Christ by believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior, that He took the punishment for your sins, loves you, and has given you a new lease on life. => YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE RELIGIOUS OR SHOW OFF <= You can quietly and simply believe, seek God's will for you, read the Bible, and live your life as you think is best for yourself and others. <=

You do fit in -- to God's plan. Look to Him, not to fallible, judgmental "religious" people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lizbeth
J

Johann

Guest
I have no idea what you're trying to say in this lengthy post.

Anyone who prays has a conversation with God.

And Jesus didn't speak in 17th Century Englyshe.
No, you have no idea, you read a part of the post, this was not for you, but to @Waiting on him-as a Jew you should be able to read Hebrew or Yiddish, yes?

Are you one of those, reading the Bible only, and relying on the Ruach HaKodesh to illuminate you?
As for secondary sources, I read it and will post it, if you can find fault, say so-correct me, if you can.
I have no idea why you interjecting in my post, to another member-perhaps 17th Century Scholars can assist you, with the "Englyshe?"
 
J

Johann

Guest
I too was hurt -- by the legalism of the Pentecostal church. I left that church and went to a charismatic, nondenominational church and found it to my liking: people actually found freedom in Christ.

I spoke in tongues -- glossolalia -- right from the start, and still do years later. It is a gift from God, but it should never be required of anyone. And I have witnessed the casting out of demons. In a sense, that was how I was saved. I was healed in the hospital by Jesus.

I don't know of anyone who has heard voices, although God has spoken to me directly on several occasions. I "heard" Him, although it was not an actual audible voice speaking.

=> Do not be put off by various gifts from God -- or lack thereof. <= You fit into the body of Christ by believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior, that He took the punishment for your sins, loves you, and has given you a new lease on life. => YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE RELIGIOUS OR SHOW OFF <= You can quietly and simply believe, seek God's will for you, read the Bible, and live your life as you think is best for yourself and others. <=

You do fit in -- to God's plan. Look to Him, not to fallible, judgmental "religious" people.
I don't have to be a religious show off--always searching for aleithia/truth, with no pride at all, hopefully assisting others and be edified.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.