How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

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Lizbeth

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Are you saying a man can be acquitted/justified/exonerated WITHOUT being reborn?
No, not at all! I take it that "by faith" is assuming one is re-born ( or in the case of OT saints counted as being born again, and looking ahead to when Jesus would be crucified).

The word "justified" is not commonly in useage in the English language today in the biblical sense, so it is like reading a word in a foreign language to me and I am trying to equate it to words that I do know, such as "exonerate" or "granted clemency" .....and I would like to confirm whether that is accurate or not. I'm sorry if this is confusing, and I know English isn't your first language so that must make it even harder, and I can't seem to explain this very well. No worries, we just can let it drop for now if need be. Thanks for what you have brought, I will see if that helps!
 
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Johann

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No, not at all! I take it that "by faith" is assuming one is re-born ( or in the case of OT saints counted as being born again, and looking ahead to when Jesus would be crucified).

The word "justified" is not commonly in useage in the English language today in the biblical sense, so it is like reading a word in a foreign language to me and I am trying to equate it to words that I do know, such as "exonerate" or "granted clemency" .....and I would like to confirm whether that is accurate or not. I'm sorry if this is confusing, and I know English isn't your first language so that must make it even harder, and I can't seem to explain this very well. No worries, we just can let it drop for now if need be. Thanks for what you have brought, I will see if that helps!

Hope this helps sister.
And do you have a Bible software? Or are you an online researcher?
 
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Lizbeth

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To me the serpent lifted up is …my old ways. Where He said to look on those old ways of corruption of the body. To me that is why it is the serpent and not Christ that they were told to look at. To see their own condition crucified.
Jhn 3:14-15

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Why a serpent? Because Christ became sin for us, and that serpent represents the serpent in the Garden that caused us all to fall....defeated at the cross. Maybe we can look at it in the light of what you are saying as well though....since it was our sins that Jesus took upon Himself and were nailed to the cross in His flesh.
 

Lizbeth

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Hope this helps sister.
And do you have a Bible software? Or are you an online researcher?
I'm not much of a researcher and use Blueletterbible.org in a limited way to look up verses and check definitions. That's about as far as my 'scholarship' goes I'm afraid.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out. :)
 
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Johann

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I hear what you are saying, but in my mind justice and mercy are polar opposites: Grace and satisfaction are polar opposites. Either we are justified in light of our faith, or we are justified in light of the fact that my sins have been punished. It can't be both.
You forget "imputation"

Is YHVH in "parts?" Polar opposites? When the Omniscient YHVH is echad?

Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.




Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

Jesus was CRUSHED for OUR iniquities--you want to make a distinction? Was not our iniquities part of/result of the crushing?

Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.

The asham offering and Yeshua being bruised and crushed is not two distinctive "parts" but the same

faith. Greek. pistis. He stands at the head of the train of faith's heroes, and alone brought faith to perfection. Omit our.

Even our faith (hē pistis hēmōn). The only instance of pistis in the Johannine Epistles (not in John’s Gospel, though in the Apocalypse). It is our faith in Jesus Christ as shown by our confession (1Jn_5:1) and by our life (1Jn_5:2).

Show me a scripture reference that-"we are justified in light of our faith"

Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom_8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co_4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal_2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You Haven't come back to me--something wrong? How do you read the Scriptures?
What is a Asham offering?





Are we still on the same page?


But he was wounded for our transgressions,.... Not for any sins of his own, but for ours, for our rebellions against God, and transgressions of his law, in order to make atonement and satisfaction for them;--


these were the procuring and meritorious causes of his sufferings and death, as they were taken upon him by him to answer for them to divine justice, which are meant by his being wounded; for not merely the wounds he received in his hands, feet, and side, made by the nails and spear, are meant, but the whole of his sufferings, and especially his being wounded to death, and which was occasionally by bearing the sins of his people; and hereby he removed the guilt from them, and freed them from the punishment due unto them:

he was bruised for our iniquities; as bread corn is bruised by threshing it, or by its being ground in the mill, as the manna was; or as spice is bruised in a mortar, he being broken and crushed to pieces under the weight of sin, and the punishment of it.

The ancient Jews understood this of the Messiah; in one place they say (o),
"chastisements are divided into three parts, one to David and the fathers, one to our generation, and one to the King Messiah; as it is written, "he was wounded for our transgressions; and bruised for our iniquities":''
and in another place (p),

"at that time they shall declare to the Messiah the troubles of Israel in captivity, and the wicked which are among them, that do not mind to know the Lord; he shall lift up his voice, and weep over the wicked among them; as it is said, "he was wounded for our transgressions", &c.''

the chastisement of our peace was upon him; that is, the punishment of our sins was inflicted on him, whereby our peace and reconciliation with God was made by him; for chastisement here does not design the chastisement of a father, and in love, such as the Lord chastises his people with; but an act of vindictive justice, and in wrath, taking vengeance on our sins, of our surety, whereby divine wrath is appeased, justice is satisfied, and peace is made:

Still have a "problem" with the --punishment of our sins?"
 
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GTW27

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I just believe what Scripture is saying--the Holy Spirit co-witnessing with my spirit-
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



Beareth witness with our spirit (summarturei tōi pneumati hēmōn). See note on Rom_2:15 for this verb with associative instrumental case. See 1Jn_5:10. for this double witness.


Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

If you and others hear voices-well done--I don't, and NO one can answer my question-HOW is the Spirit co-witnessing with my spirit? By hearing "voices?" OUTSIDE what stands written?


I stand by what Scriptures is saying.
J.
Blessings in Christ Jesus Johann! This, I tell you beforehand just like other thing, He will speak to you in the proper season. And you will hear His voice, and He will lead you and guide you unto all righteousness.
 
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Johann

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I'm not much of a researcher and use Blueletterbible.org in a limited way to look up verses and check definitions. That's about as far as my 'scholarship' goes I'm afraid.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out. :)
I really hope it would be helpful lizbeth.
Blessings in Christ Jesus Johann! This, I tell you beforehand just like other thing, He will speak to you in the proper season. And you will hear His voice, and He will lead you and guide you unto all righteousness.
Is the Lord laying this on your heart that He will speak to me in proper season?
Saying: This is the way?

just an after-thought, are you saying I am NOT standing in any righteousness at the moment?
 
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GTW27

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I really hope it would be helpful lizbeth.

Is the Lord laying this on your heart that He will speak to me in proper season?
Saying: This is the way?
It is not for me to know what The Lord will say but only it will come to pass. My intent is to encourage other members of The Body of Christ.
 
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Johann

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It is not for me to know what The Lord will say but only it will come to pass. My intent is to encourage other members of The Body of Christ.
I'm going to push a bit-gently-has anything you have encouraged other members come to pass?

And are you saying that I am not, presently, walking in righteousness/tzedakah?

That I need a Paul "experience" vision of some sorts to PUT me in the derech of righteousness?
Not being facetious with you in any way.
Johann.
 

Lizbeth

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I just believe what Scripture is saying--the Holy Spirit co-witnessing with my spirit-
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



Beareth witness with our spirit (summarturei tōi pneumati hēmōn). See note on Rom_2:15 for this verb with associative instrumental case. See 1Jn_5:10. for this double witness.


Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

If you and others hear voices-well done--I don't, and NO one can answer my question-HOW is the Spirit co-witnessing with my spirit? By hearing "voices?" OUTSIDE what stands written?


I stand by what Scriptures is saying.
J.
There are different ways that the Lord may speak to us. An inner witness or inner "knowing" is certainly one such way.
 

GTW27

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I'm going to push a bit-gently-has anything you have encouraged other members come to pass?

And are you saying that I am not, presently, walking in righteousness/tzedakah?

That I need a Paul "experience" vision of some sorts to PUT me in the derech of righteousness?
Not being facetious with you in any way.
Johann.
Blessings in Christ Jesus Johann. No, you are a brother in Christ Jesus, hence the greeting. You may not know me, but The Lord knows you. That is why it is said, "The Lord knows those that are His." The Body has many members but One Head(Christ Jesus). The members have different purposes. With my purpose, even though I am not worthy, He has given me eyes to see, and ears to hear. This is His doing. The spiritual gifts are meant to edify The Body as well as bring Glory to The Lord. I have no righteousness or holiness of my own, it is He(The Lord that is Holy and righteous alone. And this Holiness and righteousness is found in The Holy Spirit when He enters in a believer. When on this journey, we become less and He becomes more, it is then that Holiness and righteous is manifested in our lives. I still have a long way to go. The Lord is a master builder, but He builds the house according to the materials He has to work with. And each house is different. The foundation is laid, but how this house will be built will be between you and Him alone. But it will be built, for the promise is sure, "for I will finish the work that I started in you."
 
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Johann

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There are different ways that the Lord may speak to us. An inner witness or inner "knowing" is certainly one such way.
Something like this?
Rom_2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Beareth witness with our spirit (συμμαρτυρεῖ τῶ πνεύματι ἡμῶν)

This rendering assumes the concurrent testimony of the human spirit with that of the divine Spirit.

Others, however, prefer to render to our spirit, urging that the human spirit can give no testimony until acted upon by the Spirit of God.
Vincent

"Beareth witness with our spirit," (summarteurei to Pneumati hemon) "witnesses in harmony with our spirit," or tells our spirit, bears testimony by the fruit of peace and joy that he brings to our spirits, our consciousness of will and affection for God and holiness, Gal_5:22-23; Rom_5:5.



Rom_9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
In Christ (en Christōi). Paul really takes a triple oath here so strongly is he stirred. He makes a positive affirmation in Christ, a negative one (not lying), the appeal to his conscience as Corinthians-witness (sunmarturousēs, genitive absolute as in Rom_2:15 which see) “in the Holy Spirit.”

Rev., bearing witness with me. See on Rom_8:16. Concurring with my testimony. Morison remarks that Paul speaks of conscience as if it were something distinct from himself, and he cites Adam Smith's phrase, “the man within the breast.”

Where and how?
 
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Johann

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Blessings in Christ Jesus Johann. No, you are a brother in Christ Jesus, hence the greeting. You may not know me, but The Lord knows you. That is why it is said, "The Lord knows those that are His." The Body has many members but One Head(Christ Jesus). The members have different purposes. With my purpose, even though I am not worthy, He has given me eyes to see, and ears to hear. This is His doing. The spiritual gifts are meant to edify The Body as well as bring Glory to The Lord. I have no righteousness or holiness of my own, it is He(The Lord that is Holy and righteous alone. And this Holiness and righteousness is found in The Holy Spirit when He enters in a believer. When on this journey, we become less and He becomes more, it is then that Holiness and righteous is manifested in our lives. I still have a long way to go. The Lord is a master builder, but He builds the house according to the materials He has to work with. And each house is different. The foundation is laid, but how this house will be built will be between you and Him alone. But it will be built, for the promise is sure, "for I will finish the work that I started in you."
Thank you, I am nothing, just a weary pilgrim in the wilderness.
 
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amigo de christo

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There are different ways that the Lord may speak to us. An inner witness or inner "knowing" is certainly one such way.
This is true my dear sister . Yet let us always remember this one thing and remember it well .
If any voice , any thought , any feeling , any teacher , any spirit , any etc witnesses to us , IF IT CONTRADICTS
the biblical truth , ITS A LIE and the lambs WONT HEED IT .
 

amigo de christo

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Thank you, I am nothing, just a weary pilgrim in the wilderness.
Just imagine how vexed lott must have felt day in day out with all those unlawful deeds being done around him .
OH wait , we aint got to imagine . I SEE it all the time and my soul is vexed huge .
WE are pilgrams my friend . This world is not our home . But one day , and ONE DAY SOON INDEED
the lambs shall be gathered in our HOME with the GLORIOUS KING who has saved us and kept us .
Till then , IT GETS ONLY WORSE and MEGA WORSE and MEGA FAST TOO . we are on a head on collision course
with the DAY OF THE LORD my friend . And evil wont be slowing down one bit . WE must strap on all armour
and be here for one another , and KNOW that the LORD is with the lambs . No matter what we have to face
no matter what we have to lose , no matter what we have to suffer , THE LORD is with the lambs .
And even if they kill our body , WE WIN FOR JESUS WON , JESUS HAD and HAS THE VICTORY
and in HIM so too do we . HE will be WITH US through all trials and perscutions ,
and even if we are killed , THEN WE ARE FOREVER WITH HIM . WE WIN my friend . WE WIN , cause JESUS WON .
 

amigo de christo

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Thank you, I am nothing, just a weary pilgrim in the wilderness.
any voice , any thought that contradicts JESUS is a lie no matter how kind and caring and full of love it tries to make itself seem .
JESUS PREACHED ONE GOSPEL and the apostels did the same as have all lambs through all ages .
AND IT WERENT THE ALL INCLUSIVE SOCIAL GOSPEL LIE .
Paul did not go around yelling at christains and saying STOP SAYING YE MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS .
NOR did he enter into the syngagogues of the jews preaching LET US FIND COMMON GROUND IN GOOD WORKS
and letting them believe they could continue in their own mindset . HE PREACHED JESUS . HE preached YE MUST BELIEVE .
WELL , THAT ALONE is gonna be my message . no matter how hateful and unkind it seems to this lost world
and this ever lost all inclusive social religion men created .
 

amigo de christo

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This flea of a dog is going out the way i came in , FAITH IN JESUS and telling all and reminding all
TO BELIEVE YE IN CHRIST JESUS . and we better make sure ITS THE BIBLICAL JESUS . cause any other jesus aint JESUS
just as any other gospel aint NO GOSPEL .
Any love that can omit the dire need to BELIEVE ON CHRIST , AINT NO LOVE that CAME FROM GOD . PEROID .
Its a love given by satan which is no love .
The muslim religion cannot save them , the hindu religon cannot save them
the buddist religoin cannot save them , the atheist mindset cannot save them nor can any other path , any other road
any other way save one . BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST or its ALL VAIN . PEROID .
 
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Johann

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This flea of a dog is going out the way i came in , FAITH IN JESUS and telling all and reminding all
TO BELIEVE YE IN CHRIST JESUS . and we better make sure ITS THE BIBLICAL JESUS . cause any other jesus aint JESUS
just as any other gospel aint NO GOSPEL .
Any love that can omit the dire need to BELIEVE ON CHRIST , AINT NO LOVE that CAME FROM GOD . PEROID .
Its a love given by satan which is no love .
The muslim religion cannot save them , the hindu religon cannot save them
the buddist religoin cannot save them , the atheist mindset cannot save them nor can any other path , any other road
any other way save one . BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST or its ALL VAIN . PEROID .
I am weary, pride comes in all forms and manifestations amigo, it's ugly, and sometimes I see it in my life.
J.
 

Episkopos

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Blessings in Christ Jesus Johann. No, you are a brother in Christ Jesus, hence the greeting. You may not know me, but The Lord knows you. That is why it is said, "The Lord knows those that are His." The Body has many members but One Head(Christ Jesus). The members have different purposes. With my purpose, even though I am not worthy, He has given me eyes to see, and ears to hear. This is His doing. The spiritual gifts are meant to edify The Body as well as bring Glory to The Lord. I have no righteousness or holiness of my own, it is He(The Lord that is Holy and righteous alone. And this Holiness and righteousness is found in The Holy Spirit when He enters in a believer. When on this journey, we become less and He becomes more, it is then that Holiness and righteous is manifested in our lives. I still have a long way to go. The Lord is a master builder, but He builds the house according to the materials He has to work with. And each house is different. The foundation is laid, but how this house will be built will be between you and Him alone. But it will be built, for the promise is sure, "for I will finish the work that I started in you."
See, a false prophet comes to edify the flesh...and all the unbelief in prophecy goes out the window. How typical of the carnal mind. :rolleyes:
 
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Episkopos

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It is not for me to know what The Lord will say but only it will come to pass. My intent is to encourage other members of The Body of Christ.
But to do that you need actual spiritual gifts. A false encouragement can only puff up the flesh. A dime a dozen...next.
 
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