How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?
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If only it were that simple in reality. It's amazing how people can be completely blind to what is plainly written. If we love anything at all more than the truth it will blind us to the truth.....eg,, self, sin, pet doctrine, one's 'ministry', church, favourite 'minister', any idols at all. This is why it's so important to have a love of the Truth, otherwise we can only expect to be deceived. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The one common god that all false gods have in common is , its the god that serveth SELF .
GO to and behold and you will see this is true .
Satan has always desired the worship . So what does he do
well he creates another image o GOD that would serve the hearts of men .
creating in essence a god that promises good things and giveth them their own wicked desires . and we know who that god is , SATAN
by whom we all once served in the lusts of the flesh . OH YES SATAN KNOWS how to get the worship of men , HE does so through the flesh .
The god of self , THAT IS THE MONSTER behind all false religoins .
Beware that monster at all costs . Follow the glorious KING and let us love and embrace all His wholesome words and teachings .
ALL truth HE did inspire , by which if we learn we shall grow in wisdom .
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I'll check back in a few hours off to my Saturday morning mens discipleship group. :). There are 4 of ussuch a who meet each week at my son in laws house who is a pastor I'm mentoring along with an elder and seminary student. Its such a great group of men from our church who all wanted to get together as a small group. We also meet as a larger group of 20-25 men on Thursday mornings at our church.
Lol!-Muhammed Ali-"float like a butterfly-STING like a bee"
There are no indications of stupidity with you at all dear brother, on the contrary! And me, I can only understand what the Lord sees fit to illuminate to me, and to Him be the thanks and glory, otherwise, oh my goodness, I can be as dense as a rock.
Well, speaking of clemency......For the longest time I didn't really grasp what justification means. But more recently I have begun to think of justification as meaning the same as clemency and exoneration...... if I'm not mistaken. And I wanted to ask you if that is correct actually, because you have a facility with bible languages and definitions. Justification doesn't have to be something that is actually deserved, one can be justified/exonerated for other reasons such as even the whim of a judge or the wronged party? I don't want to put you on the spot, but does this sound right? I hope I've stated the question properly.
May the Lord bless you all in your meetings and lead His flock onward in Him. :)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure. I believe we are on the same page. I didn't leave out the blood, I don't think. Maybe I did in your view. In my view, the concept of blood is subsumed under the concept of death. That is, Jesus suffered and died a gruesome death and in the process he shed blood. Did you have something else in mind?
I can only partially agree with this since you don't believe that believers have the foundation, and can see how it is throwing you off. What I seem to just observe is that after coming to faith we (or the vast majority of us at least) seem to follow the same PATTERN as Israel, learning and being tutored as to what sin and righteousness is from the Law and word of God except that the vitally important difference is that we are covered and under grace, not the curse of the Law, while we do. Most of us are a mixture of being submitted to the righteousness of Christ and learning to know our need to rely on His righteousness, as opposed to relying on ourselves, trying to serve and obey Him from our flesh. We're not fully submitted to His righteousness, not yet fully surrendered to Him. "Ye have not because ye ask not." So there is a sense that we are being tutored to Christ like the Israelites, and that we only start to ask for more of Him once we begin realizing our NEED and how we lack apart from Him....when we look in the mirror of His word and see how we fall short.
Justification a a forensic term-Chen/mercy, kindness is attributive.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Even though God is a just and merciful Father, but a just YHVH demands punishment, justice--Lizbeth-I can only work with Scriptures, if you have made a point-justification doesn't "have" to be something that is actually deserved-" based on what scripture sister?
Job_11:2 Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?
Job_13:18 Behold now, I have ordered my cause; I know that I shall be justified.
Job_25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job_32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
Psa_51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa_143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
Isa_43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Isa_43:26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
Isa_45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Jer_3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
Eze_16:51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
Eze_16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
Mat_11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Mat_12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Luk_7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk_7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Luk_18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Rom_2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom_8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1Co_4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal_2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
I can only "try" to answer your question if you should say-"I used to believe like this-[scripture]-but now I see it this way [scripture]-this is how "narrow-minded I am"
J.
No, we are on the same page-I have learned not to "assume" anymore.
Isaiah 53.
I don't know brother. I'm trying to understand it. Blessed is the man whose sins the Lord doesn't count against him.....justification (exoneration?) by faith, not because one hasn't sinned? Does that make sense?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
In case you didn't know, I talk about "theories" of the atonement because that is how theologians talk about them. There are different schools of thought, if you will, concerning the atonement and how it actually works. For instance, St. Anselm came up with his own theory of the atonement based on the concept of chivalry. According to St. Anselm, our sin was an affront to God's honor. And how does one restore another man's honor, or how does one give due respect to a man who has been offended? Anselm's theory of the atonement is based on answers to those questions. In some way, according to Anselm, the cross paid due respect to the honor of God.
In my view, which I believe to be the Biblical view, punishment or payment is not the ONLY way to satisfy God. According to Paul and the rest of the New Testament, God accepted Christ's death on the cross as a token of reconciliation, rather than a satisfaction of justice.
Reconciliation isn't like justice. Justice is all about setting all things right. [Just = right] Reconciliation is the restoration of amity between enemies. The central question is this. What does God want so that we can find peace with God. Answer, I want my son to die on a cross as an innocent man so that I might demonstrate my justice. And I [God} will grant life to all those who acknowledge that Jesus is truly the son of God and are willing to confess their sins and ask for mercy.
In this case, Jesus is our intercessor, acting as our high priest. And it isn't a matter of justice, i.e. paying for sins, it's a matter of mercy, "Father, please give life to my followers."
VictoryinJesus
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Why do you assume though that I am in unbelief? Or that I don’t understand how to be born anew? When I say that is not so what you assume? Why do you challenge what I’ve experienced in reality?
I am thankful you posted all that you did. I only quoted halfway down but that does not mean i am purposely ignoring the rest of your post for a reason but instead…I stopped because it was the same thing repeated and I didn’t want to keep quoting to address the same thing over and over.
To me the serpent lifted up is …my old ways. Where He said to look on those old ways of corruption of the body. To me that is why it is the serpent and not Christ that they were told to look at. To see their own condition crucified. To see their own state of dead in their sins. he said see this, look on it and be saved. Many may have turned away in doubt. To me doubting their ways which are lower and from beneath are better and not believing God that the way they are going leads to death. (And all the disorders spoken of earlier in the thread of layers covering the condition of mankind fear of it being be seen). Not trusting what is revealed in looking at the serpent lifted up. Instead yes as you said later rejecting to look at it. This is why I kept going on and on about there is loss. If there isn’t loss …then there would not be those who won’t look for unbelief instead choosing to not see what is crucified. Why looking on a serpent that heals their condition? Because to me it shows their condition in a profound way. Undeniable EVEN when they refuse so they are without excuse, undeniable serpent in a pole that their looking or not looking doesn’t change what is on the pole. This is why I suggest those in unbelief are condemned already. They are condemned in their unbelief doesn’t change what is revealed as the serpent in the pole.
Where only looking at that condition straight on and not looking away to keep it…can one be healed of that condition. Why do you assume I haven’t looked at my condition? What makes you so sure I haven’t repented or put trust in God. To me also the serpent lifted up to bring all things down. A beacon of God is who saves. How is one born again? He who is lifted up, must first come down. To me born again anew of God is getting out of the high seat and taking the lower one. to come down from above…to be born anew of God. What if they looking at the serpent on the pole bowed to it? Or started to worship the serpent on a pole? Making a shrine to it? As a religion? Would they be missing it wasn’t the serpent that saved them but instead God revealing to them their crucified state therefore deliverance from it?Not that the serpent saved them, but God revealing the serpent to them? Saved them.
Other passages that I think of with what you shared is. Looking in the mirror and seeing your own natural face but then to turn from it and to keep going your way. In unbelief that God can heal. Or to continue on therein being changed (healed) …not forgetting the manner of the man you were keeps you from lifting yourself higher than God. Continuing in Christ …looking to Him who saves and heals their diseases of the heart. To me the mirror is NT is another call of the serpent lifted in the pole and the burning bush. A reflection to reveal our condition and need for Him. Another is Adam and Eve…they didn’t want to look but instead hid themselves. Where was the trust in God to look, to step out of where they hid themselves? They lacked one thing yea? One thing He wanted to give unto them…a trust that God is indeed Good. Believing the serpent instead that God is not good.
I keep saying it but you keep disputing it …I recognize my need for Him. To be honest if I were you I would worry more about those who say there is no loss. No giving up taking it as offensive assuming it is pushing some of their money or their possessions or that it is pushing works of the flesh. To me on a Christian board shouting saved by the cross …there should not be any confusion about what is lost is better for what is gained. As the serpent on the pole…
Loss for what is gained. Trust in God. There should be some knowledge of what is hanging up on the pole is that old conversation in the fulfilling our own lust. I keep saying what I feel like here and many want to attack and declare me as one naked when (Imo) if they knew what manner of men they were …they would reveal a little more humility, gratefulness, and mercy towards others. Fully aware what God saved them out from, why is it others on the pole and never them?
To reveal the state of mankind without Him.
Yet many hear Jump around over others, dancing around on their heads…clucking like chickens at their own righteousness…yes they say it is glorying in the cross of Christ. But if they have been raised from the dead…should they not know …having tasted of the power to come…that God has the power to raise the dead? But instead they deny this power … when they may be clucking over a child of God and picking at whatever weakness they can find to kill that inner man in them to death.
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Do you want me to show you , in Hebrew and Greek the MEANING of justification? Or are you saying we can be exonerated/exonerated "just like that?"
And where, in this verse, do you "see justification/exoneration" when it is clearly (ou mē logisētai). Strong negation by double negative and aorist middle subjunctive.
Is justification "imputed?" Or in this verse--Are we talking/dealing with this verse Psa. 32.2
Rom_4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Quoted from Psa_32:1, Psa_32:2.
will not impute] i.e. at any time of enquiry and judgment that may arise. They “shall not come into condemnation.” (Joh_5:24.)
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. As he does not to those whom he justifies in Christ, and by his righteousness; for the sins of such he has imputed to his Son, as their surety; and he has bore them, took them away, having made full satisfaction for them; so that these persons will never be charged with them-
"Will not impute sin," (ou me logisetai hamartian) "By no means may reckon (impute) or hold to his account sin," any more to eternal condemnation --- This is eternal liberation, emancipation, from bondage, by grace thru faith, Psa_32:2; Joh_10:27-29; Eph_4:30; Rom_6:23.
The same thing is expressed three several ways; there are three things in sin to be considered:
1. There is an offence against God, which is said to be forgiven.
2. There is a filthiness in sin, which is said to be covered.
3. There is guilt in it, which is said not to be imputed.
“to whom Jahve doth not reckon misdeed,” inasmuch as He, on the contrary, regards it as discharged or as settled. He who is thus justified, however, is only he in whose spirit there is no רְמִיָּה, no deceit, which denies and hides, or extenuates and excuses, this or that favourite sin. One such sin designedly retained is a secret ban, which stands in the way of justification.
Psa_1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa_32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Ashrei is the adam unto whom Hashem imputeth not avon (iniquity), and in whose ruach there is no remiyyah (guile, deceit).
imputeth not. Forensic or legal righteousness. The N.T. righteousness is not negative, but positive, for the righteousness of One (Christ) is imputed or accounted to another, as it was to Abraham (Gen_15:6. Rom_4:13).
"JUST", "JUSTIFY", ETC.
1. dikaios = just, righteous. From dike , right . Occ. eighty times; forty transl. "righteous"; thirty-three "just"; five times "right"; and thrice "meet". In two places (Rom_3:8. Heb_2:2) "just" is the rendering of endikos . No other word in N.T. for "just", or "righteous".
2. dikaioo is to set forth as righteous, to justify. Occ. forty times, of which fifteen are in Romans. Always rendered "justify", except Rom_6:7 ("freed"), and Rev_22:11 ("be righteous"). The participle is transl. "justifier" in Rom_3:26.
3. dikaiosune = righteousness. Occ. ninety-two times, of which thirty-six are in Romans. Always transl. "righteousness". Other words to which the same transl. is given are dikaioma (see below), and euthutes , which latter occ. only in Heb_1:8.
4. dikaioma is a righteous ordinance, a decree (of acquittal). See Ap. 177. 4. Rendered "righteousness" in Rom_2:26; Rom_5:18; Rom_8:4. Rev_19:8; and "ordinance" in Luk_1:6. Heb_9:1; Heb_9:10 : "judgment", Rom_1:32. Rev_15:4 : "justification", Rom_5:16.
5. dikaiosis = justification. Occ. only in Rom_4:25; Rom_5:18. The only other word rendered "justification" is dikaioma (see 4), in Rom_5:16.
#We are talking about the forensic AND attributive aspects of our Father
iniquity = sin in the nature, rather than breaches of the law in act = perverseness (never eradicated). Hebrew. 'avon. App-44.
Psa 32:2 Blessed [is]H835 Interjection ’aš·rê אַ֥שְֽׁרֵי the manH120 N-ms ’ā·ḏām אָדָ֗ם notH3808 Adv-NegPrt lō לֹ֤א does imputeH2803 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yaḥ·šōḇ יַחְשֹׁ֬ב YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֣ה to whomH0 Prep+3ms lōw ל֣וֹ N1 iniquity,H5771 N-cs ‘ā·wōn עָוֺ֑ן and [there is] noH369 Conj-w+Adv wə·’ên וְאֵ֖ין in whose spiritH7307 Prep-b+N-csc+3ms bə·rū·ḥōw בְּרוּח֣וֹ deceit.H7423 N-fs rə·mī·yå̄h רְמִיָּה׃
châshab
BDB Definition:
1) to think, plan, esteem, calculate, invent, make a judgment, imagine, count
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to think, account
1a2) to plan, devise, mean
1a3) to charge, impute, reckon
1a4) to esteem, value, regard
1a5) to invent
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be accounted, be thought, be esteemed
1b2) to be computed, be reckoned
1b3) to be imputed
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to think upon, consider, be mindful of
1c2) to think to do, devise, plan
1c3) to count, reckon
1d) (Hithpael) to be considered
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Are you saying a man can be acquitted/justified/exonerated WITHOUT being reborn?
Psa_34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Psa_40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Psa_65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Psa_84:5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
Psa_84:12 O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.
Just shoot straight with me sister, that's all I ask.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I hear what you are saying, but in my mind justice and mercy are polar opposites: Grace and satisfaction are polar opposites. Either we are justified in light of our faith, or we are justified in light of the fact that my sins have been punished. It can't be both.
Forget about theologians. Stick with what is actually revealed in Scripture. Theologians have caused more damage than help.
Blessings in Christ Jesus Johann. You write this question not because of me and the words I bring to the table, but because of you. There used to be a good Christian lady at work that had been a Christian for a long time but had never heard the voice of The Lord. So we talked about this for a while and after that, the next day she came running up to me all excited and said, "He spoke to me, The Lord spoke to me, but I can not tell you what He said." So you see, one can be truly Christian a not believe(have faith) He speaks to us. What do the scriptures say about this? A relationship is not a relationship if it is only one sided. There are promises about The Holy Spirit of promise. And this He keeps. So be still, believe, and then ask, for all who ask receive. "Did God speak to you?" Indeed.
That is a self-righteous person--
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Most of what you post doesn't make sense-and stop defending the rabbi Epi-with his 4 eternal destinies and no need for rebirth.
No one here is purposely exalting himself beyond measure-or at least, I hope not.
J.
I just believe what Scripture is saying--the Holy Spirit co-witnessing with my spirit-
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Beareth witness with our spirit (summarturei tōi pneumati hēmōn). See note on Rom_2:15 for this verb with associative instrumental case. See 1Jn_5:10. for this double witness.
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
If you and others hear voices-well done--I don't, and NO one can answer my question-HOW is the Spirit co-witnessing with my spirit? By hearing "voices?" OUTSIDE what stands written?
I stand by what Scriptures is saying.
J.
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