How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Johann]

That is a very foolish statement. If Muslims were woshiping God, they would also be worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ. The very fact that they denigrate Christ means that they worship the false God "Allah" (originally the moon god of Arabia). Additionally, the Koran says that Christians and Muslims are infidels bound for Hell.

You'll find the same thing in the Talmud.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’m surprised you guys are worshipping a man’s body. But not really

We are worshiping the God who set aside being God and came in the form of a man, who lived the life required of us, and who offered his body and his spirit for a few short hours, that must have been like a lifetime to hin, so we could be rescued from death. Who died and rose again.

Not the body..

 

[Enoch111]

You'll find the same thing in the Talmud.

Thanks for that heads up.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was never under the law given by Moses. I’d never even heard of such a thing till I was affiliated with the Baptist about 30 years ago.

I never said you were under the law

I attempted to show you the purpose of the law. which was to prove to you you were a sinner, and in need ot atonement, because since you did not live up to the requirments of God. You were dead in your sin, and needed to be made alive in Christ.

thats what the law was given for. No one was saved by the law. The law was a symbol, one of the many symbols God used from the time of Adam, when the animal shed his blood to cover adam and his wife. To all the animal sacrifices before the law. And everything up to Christ, who fullfilled them all

 

[Johann]

We are worshiping the God who set aside being God and came in the form of a man, who lived the life required of us, and who offered his body and his spirit for a few short hours, that must have been like a lifetime to hin, so we could be rescued from death. Who died and rose again.

Not the body..

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[ChristisGod]

I’m surprised you guys are worshipping a man’s body. But not really

The disciples and many others worshiped God in the flesh- Jesus Christ which was forbidden for any Jew to worship anyone or anything but YHWH.

 

[ChristisGod]

That is a very foolish statement. If Muslims were woshiping God, they would also be worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ. The very fact that they denigrate Christ means that they worship the false God "Allah" (originally the moon god of Arabia). Additionally, the Koran says that Christians and Muslims are infidels bound for Hell.

Indeed it is my brother the ecumenical movement is strong with some here. For them all roads lead to heaven and worshiping false gods is a good thing and no different than worshiping the True and Living God in their eyes.

 

[Johann]

The disciples and many others worshiped God in the flesh- Jesus Christ which was forbidden for any Jew to worship anyone or anything but YHWH.

Many examples Jesus received worship in the gospels-but I concur with you

 

[Johann]

Indeed it is my brother the ecumenical movement is strong with some here. For them all roads lead to heaven and worshiping false gods is a good thing and no different than worshiping the True and Living God in their eyes.

Correct-not all roads leads to "Rome"

 

[CadyandZoe]

The KJV says "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:14-15

The NIV has better translation of these verses: "For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.". And the NET says, "For if they become heirs by the law, faith is empty and the promise is nullified." And the NRSVue says, "For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void." So under the law is valid.

Jesus paid the penalty in full for all sin. He was punished for our sins! God is just, and justice requires punishment for sins committed. Sins can only be forgiven if the penalty is paid in full.

My point is this, I don't think the phrase "under the law" is synonymous with "of the Law" or "depend on the law". To be "under" the law is to be bound by its requirements and restrictions. But to be "of the law" is more: it refers to those who place trust or confidence in obedience as the means to gain justification. I think what Paul means to say is this, "If God expects one to place trust and confidence in obedience; then he wouldn't grant justification based on faith."

While I agree that justice requires punishment for sins committed, but Paul argues that God decided to overlook them instead. Romans 3:25. In light of this, we understand that salvation is no longer a matter of justice; its a matter of mercy instead. And God has abandoned the forensic system in favor of the system of arbitration.

Jesus obeyed his father even unto death and because of his perfect obedience, as Paul said, Jesus is allowed to enter the heavenly temple to make our appeal for mercy. Hebrews 8

If justice was served at the cross, I would have no need for a high priest. Right?

 

[CadyandZoe]

the problem with this theory is you forgot we are justified

Justified is a legal term..

We are justified based on the cross.

Christ redeemed us with his blood..

I agree, we are justified based on the cross, and yes, Christ redeemed us with his blood. But we are justified by faith, which means God is granting me justification because I put my trust in the cross. According to Paul, through the cross Jesus gained access into the heavenly temple to intercede for the saints as their high priest.

What if Jesus decides not to intercede for me? Then I am lost. Why? Because Jesus didn't satisfy justice at the cross. If he did, then God OWES me life. Instead, God grants me life, if and only if, Jesus wishes it. I am putting my hope and trust in the fact that Jesus actually did ascend to the right hand of the father and that he will, indeed, intercede on my behalf.

We are dead because of sin. God just does not wave his hand and remove the penalty. He is the perfect judge. He can’t overrule his justice, or he is not a perfect Judge.

Paul argues that mercy trumps justice. Romans 5. We are saved by grace. If we were saved by the satisfaction of justice, it would no longer be grace.

What am I missing?

 

[Johann]

obedience as the means to gain justification. I think what Paul means to say is this, "If God expects one to place trust and confidence in obedience; then he wouldn't grant justification based on faith."

Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous. Justification is an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ. According to one theologian, “the root idea in justification is the declaration of God, the righteous judge, that the man who believes in Christ, sinful though he may be, is righteous—is viewed as being righteous, because in Christ he has come into a righteous relationship with God” (Ladd, G. E., A Theology of the New Testament, Eerdmans, 1974, p. 437).



Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy. The actual change toward holiness in the sinner occurs with sanctification, which is related to justification but, for definition’s sake, distinct from it.

A key passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21–26: “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, . . . so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.” Several important facts about justification are to be noted:

• Justification comes apart from the law; that is, we cannot earn justification through rule-keeping or our own good works.

• Justification is made possible in the sacrificial death of Christ; it is based on the shed blood of Christ.

• Justification is the free and gracious gift of God bestowed on those who receive by faith the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

• Justification demonstrates the righteousness of God.

Related to God’s justification of the sinner are several things:

1) The remission of the penalty of sin, which was death (Romans 3:23; 8:1; 1 Peter 2:24).

2) The restoration to God’s favor, which had been lost due to our sin (John 3:36). So, justification is more than an acquittal; it is full acceptance. We are now friends of God (James 2:23) and co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

3) The imputation of righteousness, which is the reckoning of Christ’s righteousness to our account (Romans 4:5–8). We are declared to be righteous forensically (legally) because “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

(The preceding three points are adapted from Henry Thiessen’s Lectures in Systematic Theology, revised by Vernon Doerksen, Eerdmans, 1979, pp. 275–277).

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Jesus Christ finished the work required for our justification on the cross. “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9). He was then “raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25).

The question arises, “Is justification just? If He is holy, how can God forgive a guilty sinner?” The answer is that justification does not excuse our sin, ignore our sin, or endorse our sin. Rather, our sin is fully punished, Christ having taken our penalty for us. He was our substitute (1 Peter 3:18). Because the wrath of God is satisfied in Christ (Isaiah 53:4–6), we are free from condemnation (Romans 8:1), and God remains both “fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus” (Romans 3:26, NLT).

Because God justifies us by grace through faith in Christ, we now have peace with God (Romans 5:1). Like Joshua the priest, we have been stripped of our “filthy clothes” (Zechariah 3:4), and, like the prodigal son in the parable, we are now clothed with “the best robe” (Luke 15:22). God the Father sees us as perfect and unblemished, and we are to be devoted “to doing what is good” (Titus 3:14).

Romans 5:18–19 in the Amplified Bible sums up the basis and result of justification: “So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For just as through one man’s disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him.”

What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org

What is justification? How can I be justified before God? Why, on the basis of Christ’s death, can God declare us to be righteous?

www.gotquestions.org

I concur with this link.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The penalty was paid for, i.e., served! Otherwise, why was Jesus crucified?

As Paul said, Jesus voluntarily went to the cross out of obedience to his father in order that the Father might demonstrate his justice. The cross was a demonstration of justice. Consider the stark contrast between justice as practiced by his accusers and justice as practiced by God. His accusers sentenced an innocent man to death; by contrast, God raised an innocent man from the grave. Which one is just?

 

[ChristisGod]

I agree, we are justified based on the cross, and yes, Christ redeemed us with his blood. But we are justified by faith, which means God is granting me justification because I put my trust in the cross. According to Paul, through the cross Jesus gained access into the heavenly temple to intercede for the saints as their high priest.

What if Jesus decides not to intercede for me? Then I am lost. Why? Because Jesus didn't satisfy justice at the cross. If he did, then God OWES me life. Instead, God grants me life, if and only if, Jesus wishes it. I am putting my hope and trust in the fact that Jesus actually did ascend to the right hand of the father and that he will, indeed, intercede on my behalf.

Paul argues that mercy trumps justice. Romans 5. We are saved by grace. If we were saved by the satisfaction of justice, it would no longer be grace.

What am I missing?

I would be interested to hear what you think of my study on the atonement below.

The Tri-Unity of God in the Atonement and Jesus last words | Berean-Apologetics

View Update Here> There are many misconceptions and views on the atonement. I will try and clear up some of those in this thread espe

berean-apologetics.boards.net

 

[Episkopos]

My point is this, I don't think the phrase "under the law" is synonymous with "of the Law" or "depend on the law". To be "under" the law is to be bound by its requirements and restrictions. But to be "of the law" is more: it refers to those who place trust or confidence in obedience as the means to gain justification. I think what Paul means to say is this, "If God expects one to place trust and confidence in obedience; then he wouldn't grant justification based on faith."

While I agree that justice requires punishment for sins committed, but Paul argues that God decided to overlook them instead. Romans 3:25. In light of this, we understand that salvation is no longer a matter of justice; its a matter of mercy instead. And God has abandoned the forensic system in favor of the system of arbitration.

Jesus obeyed his father even unto death and because of his perfect obedience, as Paul said, Jesus is allowed to enter the heavenly temple to make our appeal for mercy. Hebrews 8

If justice was served at the cross, I would have no need for a high priest. Right?

This might be too subtle for many here. Agreed with the difference between being "under the law"... and being "of the law".

Being under the law is a spiritual condition of limitation to a walk in human strength...IOW..being in the flesh...walking according to the flesh.

The irony is that so many who claim to be "under grace" are not so...they are simply being lawless in many cases. Even those who are "led" by the Spirit are in a transition phase between being under the law...and under grace. Those who are led by the Spirit and no longer under the law (but are still not under grace until they are translated into the higher walk in Zion)

Is it surprising that Jesus will say to those who practice lawlessness...."depart from Me"?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Atonement came through the shedding of blood. On the day of atonement.

Your right, he is also perfect love

But love can not over rule justice..


You can’t forgive sins unless they are atoned for.

Thats what the cross did..

No greater love has any man than he give his life for another.

Of course. Well said.

 

[amigo de christo]

Big difference between hating and reproving and correcting-some have departed from the Derech--

Set thee up tziyyunim (roadmarks, road signs), make thee tamurim (guideposts); set thine lev upon the highway, even the derech thou art now walking; turn back, O Betulat Yisroel, turn back to these thy towns.

Yes indeed my friend. It would do so much good if they went back and read those letters that paul and others wrote .
Were they haters cause they rebuked , corrected and even seperated some out from the church , TILL repentance was made .
There is this big problem that has arisen within some churches
and that is they now see correction , reproving etc as being judgmental and hateful .
But if you also take notice of the churches that have cast aside this pattern
They have only waxed worse and worse in inquity and the acceptance of inquity .
The problem is When men begin to take away from the one orginal pattern set by CHRIST
and later we see it in action in the letters , they are setting themselves up for a huge fall .
Peter once wrote the church and said that as long as he was here in this tabernacle
he was gonna stir them up with those pure reminders . He even wrote
that after His decease he would make sure they would have them . And THEY DID . They left us letters from the apostels .
And i say it would do much good if folks simply returned to that simple pattern .

 

[Behold]

Those who are led by the Spirit and no longer under the law (but are still not under grace until they are translated into the higher walk in Zion)

Garbage.

Its like this, so listen up, Episkopos...

If you are born again, then you are "not under the Law, but under Grace".
The RISEN CHRIST = is not under the Law, and all the born again are ""IN CHRIST.""
Do you understand this, deceiver?
No you dont.....at all.

See......Its the New Birth, = BORN AGAIN = that puts you eternally "in Christ", as "under Grace'.
That you can't even begin to understand this, Episkopos... = speaks volumes about your man made religious tripe, that you present as false truth in your literature, posts, and videos.

 

[ChristisGod]

This might be too subtle for many here. Agreed with the difference between being "under the law"... and being "of the law".

Being under the law is a spiritual condition of limitation to a walk in human strength...IOW..being in the flesh...walking according to the flesh.

The irony is that so many who claim to be "under grace" are not so...they are simply being lawless in many cases. Even those who are "led" by the Spirit are in a transition phase between being under the law...and under grace. Those who are led by the Spirit and no longer under the law (but are still not under grace until they are translated into the higher walk in Zion)

Is it surprising that Jesus will say to those who practice lawlessness...."depart from Me"?

If you were to look into the mirror and read your post you could see a perfect reflection and description of what you see in the mirror.

I totally agree with you. Great job !

But don't be like James warns about the man who looks into the mirror at himself then forgets what he sees.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

Garbage.

Its like this, so listen up, Episkopos...

If you are born again, then you are "not under the Law, but under Grace".
CHRIST is not under the Law, and all the born again are IN CHRIST.
Do you understand this, deceiver?
No you dont.....at all.

See......Its the New Birth, that puts you "in Christ", as "under Grace'.
That you can't even begin to understand this, Episkopos... = speaks volumes about your man made religious tripe, that you present as false truth.

--and he is in denial of the necessity of the new birth. Ask him.