What is your point,that one peice of your nonsense is somehow different from the other...special somehow ? Homosexuality is sin no matter how many"points" are made or who makes them...Ha Ha yourself,unless your goal is to promote Homosexuality you failed.
Homosexuality
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What is your point,that one peice of your nonsense is somehow different from the other...special somehow ? Homosexuality is sin no matter how many"points" are made or who makes them...Ha Ha yourself,unless your goal is to promote Homosexuality you failed.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I've never claimed that homosexuality was not sinful. My claim is that many Christians tolerate all kinds of sin while at the same time, condemning homosexuality. Arrogance in the pulpit is completely overlooked, for example - often it is actually sought after; but as soon as a minister is even suspected of homosexual tendencies he ministry is over.
Of course, if I am not condemning homosexuality with the same venom reserved for this special sin, I must be gay or promoting the gay agenda, right?
I am just wondering why Christians who claim that all sin are equal, spend so much time and emotion condemning homosexuality while accepting the behavior of lying from our politicians.
either
1. We enjoy condemning a sin we are not tempted by
2. We are secretly jealous or threatened by the conviction found within the gay community.
Where is your proof that Christians "tolerate" other sins ? how do they tolerate them ? apart from condemning them what can they do ? who is accepting the lying of politicians ?and if they don't accept it what are they supposed to do about it when all politicians lie.
Either
You are defending Homosexuality
Or
You are defending Homosexuality...which is it...either way you are holding up alot of straw men and making alot of excuses.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Where is my proof that Christians tolerate lies from politicians? You just justified it by throwing up your hands at the problem and claiming that we cannot do anything about it anyway - I am just asking you to be consistent. Homosexuality is no greater sin than lying.
Apparently you don't know the definition of tolerate,to not tolerate something means to actively do something to stop it,in the case of politics the only choice is one liar over another so what are people to do...storm Washington with pitchforks and rocks.....with Homosexuality there is a choice for the Homosexual as well as a choice for those around them,the Homosexual can admit their sin and change or they can continue in their sin and pay the consequences....those around them can either condemn their sin and seperate from them(the best choice) or they can just let them be...oh thats right....thats what most people do...they let them be...but that is not enough for the radical in your face Homosexualsis it.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So you are saying that all politicians who engage in sexual perversion - including fornication should be disqualified? Good luck with that - much of the lying in Washington is about sex. I guess all politicians better be prepared to present the voters with a history of their sexual partners from now on......
In truth, the Homosexual and the heterosexual fornicator are no different in the eyes of God; they are both fornicators.
"Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe." yrm.org
Fornication, as an act, or a lifestyle,is soundly condemned throughout the Bible. 1st Corinthians 6 states:
" Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. " This makes it rather Chrystal clear doesn't it?; both ways. God judges sin, and He sees the "healthy" sex outside of Holy Marriage exactly like the unhealthy sex outside of it . But, I'm so glad that he did not stop there.
" Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God!"
What is illegal before God is to reject something clean that God has sanctified, according to our own socio/religious paradigm. Remember Peter's vision of the unclean bugs he was to eat? "But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." [ unclean ]. The church must not call unclean any soul who has repented from sin, and is sanctified by Jesus's blood. After all, Paul the Apostle murdered. He was received by God, and made holy.
In this the church has failed, overall. The meeting, pulpit driven, institutional church simply does not deal with it, as this requires some healing and tender mercies to affect restoration, as is the case of us all who emerged from deep sin wounds. The emergent church has taken up the slack, so to speak, but with permissive doctrines of "God is love" and he loves you just as you are anyhow". This is a death sentence to many "coming out of the lifestyle", as without holiness, No man will see God! hetro-or Homo-sexual.
I came out of the Jesus People revival, and lived communally several years, and saw many men and women healed up, and integrated into a holy lifestyle; married and established with families. I saw many who did not make it, also. The answer must be that we determine , as a people, that we will not be a respecter of persons, and know no man after the flesh, or his or her past, and receive those who God receives.
Once, I evangelized the "Castro" in San Francisco, for 40 days straight, with 30 or 40 other
Evangelists. We preached every day, almost exclusively to the "Gay" crowds, and had a Coffee house where they could come at night in the "Tenderloin", rife with Homosexual Night clubs, with male strippers. We saw one converted, and a few more, but the word got out. It was hard ground, to say the least.
What it did do for me, was release every prejudice I had, and allowed me to accept the saved as I would any other, regardless of their sexual affiliations in their old life. At some point, however, this sin morphs into the abomination realm. It does appear that this sin will catapult you quicker into the seared conscience.
Turning truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
" God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
In this sense, the reprobate mind is directly related to continued homosexual sin. A scary thing. We are to show Agape mercy to all who will repent and believe upon the Lord Jesus, and let God be the judge as we do.
"Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe." yrm.org
Fornication, as an act, or a lifestyle,is soundly condemned throughout the Bible. 1st Corinthians 6 states:
" Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. " This makes it rather Chrystal clear doesn't it?; both ways. God judges sin, and He sees the "healthy" sex outside of Holy Marriage exactly like the unhealthy sex outside of it . But, I'm so glad that he did not stop there.
" Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God!"
What is illegal before God is to reject something clean that God has sanctified, according to our own socio/religious paradigm. Remember Peter's vision of the unclean bugs he was to eat? "But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." [ unclean ]. The church must not call unclean any soul who has repented from sin, and is sanctified by Jesus's blood. After all, Paul the Apostle murdered. He was received by God, and made holy.
In this the church has failed, overall. The meeting, pulpit driven, institutional church simply does not deal with it, as this requires some healing and tender mercies to affect restoration, as is the case of us all who emerged from deep sin wounds. The emergent church has taken up the slack, so to speak, but with permissive doctrines of "God is love" and he loves you just as you are anyhow". This is a death sentence to many "coming out of the lifestyle", as without holiness, No man will see God! hetro-or Homo-sexual.
I came out of the Jesus People revival, and lived communally several years, and saw many men and women healed up, and integrated into a holy lifestyle; married and established with families. I saw many who did not make it, also. The answer must be that we determine , as a people, that we will not be a respecter of persons, and know no man after the flesh, or his or her past, and receive those who God receives.
Once, I evangelized the "Castro" in San Francisco, for 40 days straight, with 30 or 40 other
Evangelists. We preached every day, almost exclusively to the "Gay" crowds, and had a Coffee house where they could come at night in the "Tenderloin", rife with Homosexual Night clubs, with male strippers. We saw one converted, and a few more, but the word got out. It was hard ground, to say the least.
What it did do for me, was release every prejudice I had, and allowed me to accept the saved as I would any other, regardless of their sexual affiliations in their old life. At some point, however, this sin morphs into the abomination realm. It does appear that this sin will catapult you quicker into the seared conscience.
Turning truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
" God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
In this sense, the reprobate mind is directly related to continued homosexual sin. A scary thing. We are to show Agape mercy to all who will repent and believe upon the Lord Jesus, and let God be the judge as we do.
Aspen2,
Christians do not
So lets be clear, this isn’t primarily about homosexuality, its primarily about God. Those gay lobbies do not speak for all homosexuals.
Is that clearer to you now?
Christians do not
The Biblical testimony of God condemns all sin which includes homosexual practice as sin. Ask any Christian whether sin in the Bible is sin and they will tell you it is.Gay lobbies are pushing homosexuality like no one else is pushing any other sin which is the basis for a wrong assumption that Christians are singling it out.
That’s because you believe the lie, don’t believe all homosexuals, and are not open to the evidence. Matthew Parris and Peter Tatchel, who both identify as homosexuals are not convinced people are necessarily totally gay or always gay from birth. Both these recognise the scientific evidence is not clear. It is the gay lobbies like Stonewall that has made false claims all along and have deceived people.
So lets be clear, this isn’t primarily about homosexuality, its primarily about God. Those gay lobbies do not speak for all homosexuals.
Is that clearer to you now?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Thanks for sharing this information. You have an interesting perspective and history. I grew up in SF and appreciate your experience.
Aspen2,
Oh com'mon indeed. Is the church asking for greed to be blessed? I don’t think so. Do we think greed is wrong? Its condemned in the Bible, like same sex relations.
Are we expecting governments lead by people who are pushing same sex relations to be tackling greed?
Are we expecting the likes of Lady Gaga and Holywood selling sex and violence, drugs, alcohol and same sex relations to be against it?
So give me a break! Even some homosexuals are pointing out the gay lobbies have mislead.
Come off it
With thousands of Christians facing mortal danger all over the world for their convictions I dont get overly impressed by homosexual's convictions even those brave men like Peter Tatchel.
Come on wake up
Oh com'mon indeed. Is the church asking for greed to be blessed? I don’t think so. Do we think greed is wrong? Its condemned in the Bible, like same sex relations.
Are we expecting governments lead by people who are pushing same sex relations to be tackling greed?
Are we expecting the likes of Lady Gaga and Holywood selling sex and violence, drugs, alcohol and same sex relations to be against it?
So give me a break! Even some homosexuals are pointing out the gay lobbies have mislead.
Come off it
a strong wrong conviction is still just as wrong and a strong right conviction.
With thousands of Christians facing mortal danger all over the world for their convictions I dont get overly impressed by homosexual's convictions even those brave men like Peter Tatchel.
Come on wake up
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Oh com'mon indeed. Is the church asking for greed to be blessed? I don’t think so. Do we think greed is wrong? Its condemned in the Bible, like same sex relations.
Are we expecting governments lead by people who are pushing same sex relations to be tackling greed?
Are we expecting the likes of Lady Gaga and Holywood selling sex and violence, drugs, alcohol and same sex relations to be against it?
So give me a break! Even some homosexuals are pointing out the gay lobbies have mislead.
Come off it
I have no idea what your point it. I am not asking the church to accept homosexuality. I am not asking the church to change it's teachings about homosexuality. I have stated that homosexuality is a sin - at least 20 times. I am saying that homosexuality is equal to all other sins, which happen to flourish in our country - outside the church! So why do Christians vote against pro-homosexual issues - outside the church, but overlook the sin of greed, immorality, ect? And finally, why do Christians overlook other sins inside the church, but react out of proportion towards the sin of homosexuality?
I am really not being provocative.
a strong wrong conviction is still just as wrong and a strong right conviction.
I am talking about the emotion behind the words - that is what is compelling to many.
With thousands of Christians facing mortal danger all over the world for their convictions I dont get overly impressed by homosexual's convictions even those brave men like Peter Tatchel.
Never heard of him. Not sure why you guys do not talk about the heroes of our faith. I am glad to be Catholic because I get to study about them all the time. The fact is, this thread is 26 pages long - it is a hot topic. Peter Tatchel is not - perhaps you should change that.
Are we expecting governments lead by people who are pushing same sex relations to be tackling greed?
Are we expecting the likes of Lady Gaga and Holywood selling sex and violence, drugs, alcohol and same sex relations to be against it?
So give me a break! Even some homosexuals are pointing out the gay lobbies have mislead.
Come off it
I have no idea what your point it. I am not asking the church to accept homosexuality. I am not asking the church to change it's teachings about homosexuality. I have stated that homosexuality is a sin - at least 20 times. I am saying that homosexuality is equal to all other sins, which happen to flourish in our country - outside the church! So why do Christians vote against pro-homosexual issues - outside the church, but overlook the sin of greed, immorality, ect? And finally, why do Christians overlook other sins inside the church, but react out of proportion towards the sin of homosexuality?
I am really not being provocative.
a strong wrong conviction is still just as wrong and a strong right conviction.
I am talking about the emotion behind the words - that is what is compelling to many.
With thousands of Christians facing mortal danger all over the world for their convictions I dont get overly impressed by homosexual's convictions even those brave men like Peter Tatchel.
Never heard of him. Not sure why you guys do not talk about the heroes of our faith. I am glad to be Catholic because I get to study about them all the time. The fact is, this thread is 26 pages long - it is a hot topic. Peter Tatchel is not - perhaps you should change that.
Hi Aspen2,
My point is that not all homosexuals entirely agree with the gay lobbies such as Stonewall, yet it is lobbies such as Stonewall driving government agendas. The issue would not be significant in the church were it not for the likes of those in the church pushing for the sin to be blessed and even blessing it. I dont know any proposed liturgy for blessing greed.
So what point are you making? The church is only standing its ground against the cultural obsession with the issue.
My point is that not all homosexuals entirely agree with the gay lobbies such as Stonewall, yet it is lobbies such as Stonewall driving government agendas. The issue would not be significant in the church were it not for the likes of those in the church pushing for the sin to be blessed and even blessing it. I dont know any proposed liturgy for blessing greed.
So what point are you making? The church is only standing its ground against the cultural obsession with the issue.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
What is bothering me is that I see average Christians (not just Christian activists) reacting to the sin of homosexuality and homosexuals differently than other sinners - greedy people or prideful people. Ok here is a crazy parallel - now let me be clear before I state this - I do not believe it is true - I am only reporting it. Some liberal Christians belief that Buddhism and Christianity can be paired together - they attend Zen Meditation and Church. Instead of being confronted by church leaders, the practice is overlooked - the Presbyterian Church I used to attend holds Rekki classes for church members. Yet, if a practicing Mormon was open about his beliefs and wanted to join the church - he would be rejected. There is no difference.
In the case of homosexuality, I see it as a private sin - just like all other sin that does not directly affect the congregation. Now if a homosexual person wanted to teach a couples counseling workshop for Christian couples with their partner - I would have to say no. But, if they want to worship with me, a fellow sinner, they are welcome.
This issue is important to me because I think the church has failed homosexuals. We have been uncharitable. God loves all people and He is the only one who can convict anyone of personal sin. All we can do is teach the truth and love.
I am just looking for consistency.
Aspen2,
I do not see the average Christian reacting any differently to homosexuality than any other sin. What I do see is homosexuality invading every aspect of life and Christians responding accordingly.
I have seen several forums where those starting thread after thread promoting and defending homosexuality repeatedly accusing believers of obsession with the topic because they always challenge it. Those who are most obsessed with homosexuality are the ones starting all the threads.
Regarding the statement "Some liberal Christians belief that Buddhism and Christianity can be paired together" This is an oxymoron. If someone believes Buddhism and Christian can be paired together they are by definition and Christian faith according to the Biblical testimony of God, not a Christian.
They are probably not Buddhists either. Same problem if the church they are in is similarly deceived.
The scripture does put all sexual sin different from other sin (1 Cor 6) in that it is a sin against one’s own body which is supposed to be a temple of the Holy Spirit, our bodies are bought at a price, we should honour God with them. But what you have claimed as private is different from that.
This is the problem with this issue, its isnt about people/homosexuals, it is about a choice beteen faith in God or rebellion. Faith in Christ is believing He is the truth. If one believes in Him one will admit one is a sinner and one will not be promoting or defending sin, nor judging others for falling short. Faith brings a transformation by the renewing of ones mind. The person who comitts a homosexual act who knows it is wrong and is sorry, can worship God. The person who wilfully doesnt accept it is sin and wants to teach and encourage others in it can't worship in spirit or truth, because thats neither the spirit nor the truth.
Look how Jesus dealt with contrite and stubborn hearts. With greed, Zaccheus was commended for giving away half his possessions, but the rich man who wanted to justify himself by keeping all other commandments so he could get away with wealth got told by Jesus to first give up all his possessions before he came to follow Jesus.
I do not see the average Christian reacting any differently to homosexuality than any other sin. What I do see is homosexuality invading every aspect of life and Christians responding accordingly.
I have seen several forums where those starting thread after thread promoting and defending homosexuality repeatedly accusing believers of obsession with the topic because they always challenge it. Those who are most obsessed with homosexuality are the ones starting all the threads.
Regarding the statement "Some liberal Christians belief that Buddhism and Christianity can be paired together" This is an oxymoron. If someone believes Buddhism and Christian can be paired together they are by definition and Christian faith according to the Biblical testimony of God, not a Christian.
They are probably not Buddhists either. Same problem if the church they are in is similarly deceived.
So now you do see it differently than other sin. You have just been saying Christians shouldn’t do that. Where is the scripture to support this view, or is that just your personal opinion?
The scripture does put all sexual sin different from other sin (1 Cor 6) in that it is a sin against one’s own body which is supposed to be a temple of the Holy Spirit, our bodies are bought at a price, we should honour God with them. But what you have claimed as private is different from that.
Really? What about the member of the congregation who lies and steals outside the fellowship in their daily lives?
Nice of you to give them permission, but if they want to worship God in spirit and truth it wont be as a ‘homosexual person’, in Christ there isnt even male and female which God created, so there certainly isn’t any homosexual or heterosexual. But if a homosexual person or a thief wants to teach homosexuality or theft, how is bring that sinful nature to God worshipping Him? Its not the spirit or truth. Jesus said those who don’t seek to do what He taught don’t love Him.
Then you are badly mistaken in it. You are not even seeing it from all homosexual’s pov let alone God. There are homosexuals in the church who believe, know that same sex relations are error and sin and know that they are just like every other sinner fully loved by God and accepted in the church. So how can you say the church has failed homosexuals. The issue isn’t about homosexuals, it is about God. There are plenty of honest homosexuals who are not blind to evidence and are now distancing themselves from the gay lobbies who make these claims about the church.
This is the problem with this issue, its isnt about people/homosexuals, it is about a choice beteen faith in God or rebellion. Faith in Christ is believing He is the truth. If one believes in Him one will admit one is a sinner and one will not be promoting or defending sin, nor judging others for falling short. Faith brings a transformation by the renewing of ones mind. The person who comitts a homosexual act who knows it is wrong and is sorry, can worship God. The person who wilfully doesnt accept it is sin and wants to teach and encourage others in it can't worship in spirit or truth, because thats neither the spirit nor the truth.
Look how Jesus dealt with contrite and stubborn hearts. With greed, Zaccheus was commended for giving away half his possessions, but the rich man who wanted to justify himself by keeping all other commandments so he could get away with wealth got told by Jesus to first give up all his possessions before he came to follow Jesus.
Socrates and Plato (ancient philosophers of Athens) were "seekers of TRUTH" (just like the poster "Fire 7" is). They would not claim that the reason they "seek truth" is because they were BORN THAT WAY (likely they did not believe that seeking truth was an uncontrollable birth defect). Socrates and Plato were involved in the same pursuit (a 'labor of love', but there is no indication that they were 'romantic' about it).
No doubt, the culture of Athens was influenced heavily by the truthquest of Socrates and Plato, and so it would be logical to believe that the Athenians learned to admire the noble qualities of peace, truth, and justice. In Acts chapter 17, Paul spoke to the men of Athens at the 'AREOPAGUS' (THEN, it was their TOWN HALL, it is still standing to this day WITH a plaque containing Paul's speech).
The Athenians admired these noble qualities so much that they believed the qualities were not only of DIVINE ORIGIN, but that the ORIGIN SPIRIT (creator) desired humanity to have these qualities/characteristics in their heart, mind, and soul/conscience.
God did not just "INSPIRE" scripture, He DESIGNED/engineered scripture, so He had Pilate say "What is TRUTH?" (John 18:38) so that the readers that WANT TO LEARN (and believe that COMMON SENSE makes it possible to LEARN WITHOUT BEING TAUGHT) could a VERY VALUABLE lesson about TRUTH.
2 Thessalonians 2:10
"because they refused to LOVE the truth AND SO BE SAVED".....(yes, this lesson is truly important!).
In John 14:6, Jesus tells us what He is in the first 9 words "I am....THE TRUTH.....".
Jesus came in the "fulness of time" (the completion and end of TIME).....
Ephesians 1:10 "the fulness of time".
No longer do we have mere EXISTENCE in THE AGE OF TIME, we now have LIFE ("THE LIFE" eternal/forever) IN JESUS.
Matthew 12:32 "either in this age or in the age to come".
Mark 10:30 "and in the age to come eternal life".
Galatians 1:4 "present evil age".
2,000 years ago and earlier, The Lord spoke to people who were alive at the time. He spoke to them about the PRUDISH laws and rules/ordinances of the time (they were not COMPELLED or were forced to live by the ten requirements of PERFECTION that Moses brought down from the mountain, they AGREED/chose to live by them,.....God wouldn't want them to be "HYPOCRITES").
Matthew 6:2 "sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do".
To the Jews (who treated God as being EXTERNAL and OUTSIDE OF THEM),....they needed to CALL OUT/pray to God, Jesus said.....
Matthew 6:5 and 6 "don't be like the hypocrites"....."But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret"/PRIVATE........."private" is for a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.
Both Jesus and John the Baptist called the Pharisees a "Brood of Vipers" because they misled the people. Jesus went further and said they were CHILDREN OF HELL....(and were hypocritical)
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves".
....Matthew 15:7, 22:18 and on and on....DO NOT be a HYPOCRITE.
The condemnation/prohibition of a person that has decided that it is easier to relate romantically/fondly/emotionally to a "BUDDY" (someone of the same gender) was made to an "evil generation" (during an "evil age", but now we are to be judged under the "LAW OF LIBERTY" (James 1:25 and James 2:12).......
.....haven't you heard, the old law of "10 commandments" with all the worship rules/ordinances (wear your hair this way, wear this robe, etc.) has been ABOLISHED....
Luke 3:6 "by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and ordinances".
There is NO TEXT or rules to the law of liberty (no requirements)......does the man of God need any guidelines/commands?.....NO the true man of God does not need to be COMMANDED in order that "goodness" happen.....the man of God is a LOVER OF GOODNESS and knows God as "Abba FATHER", not "master".
Titus 1:8 "lover of goodness, master of himself".........GOOD NEWS?.
YOU yourself make all decisions about what will be 'IN, OF, AND ABOUT' your own life (as long as it isn't harmful, destructive, and unjustly burdensome to others......God wants YOU to be happy and have joy (enjoy LIFE).....He likes to see His children happy.
I've never been gay, but I grew up in a dysfunctional family and never married (I'm 57) because I was always afraid that all women are ultimately like my mother and my sister (it's a wonder that I never became homosexual).
The blueletterbible website can be used as an online concordance (another one is GATEWAY.COM) and you can 'cross-reference many versions also for better understanding. Many NEW VERSIONS are 'watered down' and corrupted.
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm
http://kelschbiblestudy.tripod.com/christ_news/versions/
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Police%20State/501c3.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch
....Jesus was not speaking with 'poetic liscense' when He said (He meant every word)...
....John 14:6 "I am THE WAY,...." Acts 9:2 and 19:9.
"I am....THE TRUTH..." (Pilates question).
"I am...THE LIFE" (in the age of eternity.
All verses are from the RSV.
No doubt, the culture of Athens was influenced heavily by the truthquest of Socrates and Plato, and so it would be logical to believe that the Athenians learned to admire the noble qualities of peace, truth, and justice. In Acts chapter 17, Paul spoke to the men of Athens at the 'AREOPAGUS' (THEN, it was their TOWN HALL, it is still standing to this day WITH a plaque containing Paul's speech).
The Athenians admired these noble qualities so much that they believed the qualities were not only of DIVINE ORIGIN, but that the ORIGIN SPIRIT (creator) desired humanity to have these qualities/characteristics in their heart, mind, and soul/conscience.
God did not just "INSPIRE" scripture, He DESIGNED/engineered scripture, so He had Pilate say "What is TRUTH?" (John 18:38) so that the readers that WANT TO LEARN (and believe that COMMON SENSE makes it possible to LEARN WITHOUT BEING TAUGHT) could a VERY VALUABLE lesson about TRUTH.
2 Thessalonians 2:10
"because they refused to LOVE the truth AND SO BE SAVED".....(yes, this lesson is truly important!).
In John 14:6, Jesus tells us what He is in the first 9 words "I am....THE TRUTH.....".
Jesus came in the "fulness of time" (the completion and end of TIME).....
Ephesians 1:10 "the fulness of time".
No longer do we have mere EXISTENCE in THE AGE OF TIME, we now have LIFE ("THE LIFE" eternal/forever) IN JESUS.
Matthew 12:32 "either in this age or in the age to come".
Mark 10:30 "and in the age to come eternal life".
Galatians 1:4 "present evil age".
2,000 years ago and earlier, The Lord spoke to people who were alive at the time. He spoke to them about the PRUDISH laws and rules/ordinances of the time (they were not COMPELLED or were forced to live by the ten requirements of PERFECTION that Moses brought down from the mountain, they AGREED/chose to live by them,.....God wouldn't want them to be "HYPOCRITES").
Matthew 6:2 "sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do".
To the Jews (who treated God as being EXTERNAL and OUTSIDE OF THEM),....they needed to CALL OUT/pray to God, Jesus said.....
Matthew 6:5 and 6 "don't be like the hypocrites"....."But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret"/PRIVATE........."private" is for a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.
Both Jesus and John the Baptist called the Pharisees a "Brood of Vipers" because they misled the people. Jesus went further and said they were CHILDREN OF HELL....(and were hypocritical)
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves".
....Matthew 15:7, 22:18 and on and on....DO NOT be a HYPOCRITE.
The condemnation/prohibition of a person that has decided that it is easier to relate romantically/fondly/emotionally to a "BUDDY" (someone of the same gender) was made to an "evil generation" (during an "evil age", but now we are to be judged under the "LAW OF LIBERTY" (James 1:25 and James 2:12).......
.....haven't you heard, the old law of "10 commandments" with all the worship rules/ordinances (wear your hair this way, wear this robe, etc.) has been ABOLISHED....
Luke 3:6 "by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and ordinances".
There is NO TEXT or rules to the law of liberty (no requirements)......does the man of God need any guidelines/commands?.....NO the true man of God does not need to be COMMANDED in order that "goodness" happen.....the man of God is a LOVER OF GOODNESS and knows God as "Abba FATHER", not "master".
Titus 1:8 "lover of goodness, master of himself".........GOOD NEWS?.
YOU yourself make all decisions about what will be 'IN, OF, AND ABOUT' your own life (as long as it isn't harmful, destructive, and unjustly burdensome to others......God wants YOU to be happy and have joy (enjoy LIFE).....He likes to see His children happy.
I've never been gay, but I grew up in a dysfunctional family and never married (I'm 57) because I was always afraid that all women are ultimately like my mother and my sister (it's a wonder that I never became homosexual).
The blueletterbible website can be used as an online concordance (another one is GATEWAY.COM) and you can 'cross-reference many versions also for better understanding. Many NEW VERSIONS are 'watered down' and corrupted.
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm
http://kelschbiblestudy.tripod.com/christ_news/versions/
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Police%20State/501c3.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch
....Jesus was not speaking with 'poetic liscense' when He said (He meant every word)...
....John 14:6 "I am THE WAY,...." Acts 9:2 and 19:9.
"I am....THE TRUTH..." (Pilates question).
"I am...THE LIFE" (in the age of eternity.
All verses are from the RSV.
Aspen,
You are playing word games.Tell me the difference between homosexuals/sodimites/effeminate call boys and or dirty old men. Christ said in Matthew 5 :28 But i say to you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hat committed adultry with her already in his heart. hang on! if a man looks at another man with lust or a woman look toward a woman with lust, then they have sinned. I know this is talking about divorce, but you must know that sin is a sin and all weight equal with God. Regardless of whatever word you want to use, the "concept and act" of man with a man; woman with a woman is an abomination with God and as a Christian it should be an abomination with you also.
I am not saying to become homophobic, but I am saying you should not support the practice. And here is why... Matthew12:36-37 But I say to you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. for by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thous shalt be condemned. You are supposed to be a Christian and you are watched by those who aren't. If you accept and defend things that God has deemed wrong, then what incentive does that person have to become a Christian. That constitutes mocking God and Paul said that to be a very dangerous thng to do.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Why is it called 'playing word games' when a word study reveals results that are not favorable? If the Greek word was translated 'same-sex partners who want to engage in sexual relations and get married' I can guarantee it would be broadcasted all over this board.
I am defending nothing. I am telling you what the greek is telling us, which is different than the homosexual relationship we see today. Even if the Bible was completely silent on the subject of homosexuality, I still think God is against it for Christians - it is part of the world; but is it wrong for nonbelievers? Absolutely not. They need Jesus to change their desires and their hearts - we can do nothing for them except serve as an example.
Having a discussion about scripture - including different perspectives is not mocking God or Paul.
I hear a lot of excuses why people behave the way they do, whether they be hetersexual or homosexual. A sin is a sin. When we stand before God, we best not be offering him excuses why we behaved certain ways when he clearly said to not do that. I don't think he will buy the excuses.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
He is not in the market to buy excuses from nonbelievers. If I was advocating for the Christian acceptance of homosexual behavior from fellow Christians, I could see your point - but I am not.
Hello all,
This is a post about the Biblical basis for believing victory over sin is God's expectation of all true Christians.
Hebrews 7:24 But this [man], [Jesus Christ] because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
I have not read the entire thread - only the beginning and the end. Thus, I'm not sure how much scripture has been brought to bear on this topic, although I noticed the early reference to Leviticus 18, and Romans 1, which are key chapters placing homosexual practice in the context of idol worship - and, therefore, incompatible with true (meaning pure) worship of God. (His words not mine.)
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, [2000 years ago] when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
The end of Leviticus 18 states the same truth as Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
The original context is Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. {bondage: Heb. servants}
Not only had they been physically slaves in Egypt, but they grew up with the idol worship which was normal there.
Earlier He had said: Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ...'
Here God has established His own thought on their exodus from Egypt. He was bringing them to Himself. This theme recurs frequently in the Old Testament, and again in the words of Jesus to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Remember, at the time God said this, He was speaking directly to Moses. God was known by His name and His voice. There was nothing to 'see' except creation and the daily miracles He performed.) 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
(1 Corinthians 10:20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.)
Paul fully expects the idolater (whether a willing idolater or an unwilling idolater - that is, someone who has been or is being sacrificed on the altar of the idolatry of others) to have the strength to choose faith in Christ, in response to the word of God preached to them. He had seen many instances of it:
1 Thess 1:9 '... and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1 Corinthians 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Not only is the Old Testament choc-a-bloc with instances of the Israelites turning away from God to idols, and then back to God (after they had been chastised/afflicted by Him for their infidelity), but when Jesus arrived near where Legion lived amongst the graves, this was Legion's response:
Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him.
Jesus made an important distinction between a person's natural estate (Abraham's seed) and their spiritual estate, (in bondage) when He said:
John 8:31 '... If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye [believing Jews] shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They [unbelieving Jews] answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
That last, is Paul's thesis in Romans 6. I'll pick key verses for the sake of brevity.
1 '... Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection. [Tyndale has a variation on this which I think is helpful: 'for if we be graft(ed) in(to) death, like unto Him...' This gives the idea of a permanent fixing into His death, which can be compared to being literally buried for good. The resurrection which we then experience, is only as good as our 'burial' was.]
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead [in Christ] is freed from sin.
The key to gaining victory over sin is that we honestly from the heart, acknowledge we deserve to die for our sin(s), and therefore do see ourselves as (potentially) dead already apart from the grace of God to mankind in Christ Jesus - whereby He died for us, so that we can live in victory over sin and death on this side of the grave.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.... now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ['Holiness' - set apart unto God for His purposes.]
Romans 7:4 '... that we should bring forth fruit unto God.'
Believing on Jesus Christ Implies as full a repentance from sin as we can make with understanding at the time we begin to believe, and, a willingness to continue in repentance and faith, every time we find ourselves in sin. There is an expectation nevertheless, that victory is attainable, as John describes in his epistle (quoted below).
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in [or, given to] the flesh, but in [or, given to] the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance?
I John 1:7 '... if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
In the New Testament sin is not 'covered' by the blood of Christ, (as sins under the Old Covenant were covered by the blood of animals, to hide them from God's sight - Hebrews 10:4), His blood cleanses our spirit, soul and body, through its application by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Jesus said: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed
John 15:3 [Jesus said:] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Abiding in Jesus Christ, the true Vine, is the freedom He purchased for us with His blood. As our Redeemer, thus reconciled with God, (2 Corinthians 5:19 - 21) the image of God can be restored in us.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Psalm 23:3 He restores my soul.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Jude v 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading, and I hope it made sense. I hope, too, that these connections will help to undergird the thoughts I hope to write more discursively (in a future post), to other points in the thread.
This is a post about the Biblical basis for believing victory over sin is God's expectation of all true Christians.
Hebrews 7:24 But this [man], [Jesus Christ] because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
I have not read the entire thread - only the beginning and the end. Thus, I'm not sure how much scripture has been brought to bear on this topic, although I noticed the early reference to Leviticus 18, and Romans 1, which are key chapters placing homosexual practice in the context of idol worship - and, therefore, incompatible with true (meaning pure) worship of God. (His words not mine.)
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, [2000 years ago] when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
The end of Leviticus 18 states the same truth as Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
The original context is Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. {bondage: Heb. servants}
Not only had they been physically slaves in Egypt, but they grew up with the idol worship which was normal there.
Earlier He had said: Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ...'
Here God has established His own thought on their exodus from Egypt. He was bringing them to Himself. This theme recurs frequently in the Old Testament, and again in the words of Jesus to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Remember, at the time God said this, He was speaking directly to Moses. God was known by His name and His voice. There was nothing to 'see' except creation and the daily miracles He performed.) 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
(1 Corinthians 10:20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.)
Paul fully expects the idolater (whether a willing idolater or an unwilling idolater - that is, someone who has been or is being sacrificed on the altar of the idolatry of others) to have the strength to choose faith in Christ, in response to the word of God preached to them. He had seen many instances of it:
1 Thess 1:9 '... and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1 Corinthians 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Not only is the Old Testament choc-a-bloc with instances of the Israelites turning away from God to idols, and then back to God (after they had been chastised/afflicted by Him for their infidelity), but when Jesus arrived near where Legion lived amongst the graves, this was Legion's response:
Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him.
Jesus made an important distinction between a person's natural estate (Abraham's seed) and their spiritual estate, (in bondage) when He said:
John 8:31 '... If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye [believing Jews] shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They [unbelieving Jews] answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
That last, is Paul's thesis in Romans 6. I'll pick key verses for the sake of brevity.
1 '... Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection. [Tyndale has a variation on this which I think is helpful: 'for if we be graft(ed) in(to) death, like unto Him...' This gives the idea of a permanent fixing into His death, which can be compared to being literally buried for good. The resurrection which we then experience, is only as good as our 'burial' was.]
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead [in Christ] is freed from sin.
The key to gaining victory over sin is that we honestly from the heart, acknowledge we deserve to die for our sin(s), and therefore do see ourselves as (potentially) dead already apart from the grace of God to mankind in Christ Jesus - whereby He died for us, so that we can live in victory over sin and death on this side of the grave.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.... now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ['Holiness' - set apart unto God for His purposes.]
Romans 7:4 '... that we should bring forth fruit unto God.'
Believing on Jesus Christ Implies as full a repentance from sin as we can make with understanding at the time we begin to believe, and, a willingness to continue in repentance and faith, every time we find ourselves in sin. There is an expectation nevertheless, that victory is attainable, as John describes in his epistle (quoted below).
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in [or, given to] the flesh, but in [or, given to] the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance?
I John 1:7 '... if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
In the New Testament sin is not 'covered' by the blood of Christ, (as sins under the Old Covenant were covered by the blood of animals, to hide them from God's sight - Hebrews 10:4), His blood cleanses our spirit, soul and body, through its application by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Jesus said: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed
John 15:3 [Jesus said:] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Abiding in Jesus Christ, the true Vine, is the freedom He purchased for us with His blood. As our Redeemer, thus reconciled with God, (2 Corinthians 5:19 - 21) the image of God can be restored in us.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Psalm 23:3 He restores my soul.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Jude v 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading, and I hope it made sense. I hope, too, that these connections will help to undergird the thoughts I hope to write more discursively (in a future post), to other points in the thread.
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