Here is why, as an Adventist, I believe America is in Trouble.

[ewq1938]

The Catholic church lays claim to being the proud source of authority regarding the establishment of Sunday sacredness.
In the absence of any biblical authority to the contrary, I'm inclined to agree with her. Non-Catholics keep Sunday as a day of sacred religious observance and fellowship, not because the Bible commands it, not because any of the Apostles did it, nor because Jesus commanded it, but because of the tradition established by Rome.

No, most go to church on Sundays because the Apostles were taught by Paul on a Sunday long before Rome started a Christian church. Again, you are accepting what the RCC claims, that they started this when they didn't but some seem to prefer the claims of the RCC over actual biblical evidence.

This claim by the Catholic church, unlike so many others she has made over the centuries, is actually supported by history. We are not simply taking her word for it. It is in fact the only viable alternative to a lack of scriptural evidence to any other.

There isn't a lack of scriptural evidence.

Mar_16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week.

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

The disciples gathering on the first day of the week.

Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Paul preaching to the other Apostles on the first day of the week.

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co_16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Collecting monetary offerings on the first day of the week.

Hundreds of years before the RCC copied and mandated such things. Protestants are not obeying the RCC regarding anything related to the first day of the week.

 

[quietthinker]

No, most go to church on Sundays because the Apostles were taught by Paul on a Sunday long before Rome started a Christian church. Again, you are accepting what the RCC claims, that they started this when they didn't but some seem to prefer the claims of the RCC over actual biblical evidence.





There isn't a lack of scriptural evidence.

Mar_16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week.

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

The disciples gathering on the first day of the week.

Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Paul preaching to the other Apostles on the first day of the week.

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co_16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Collecting monetary offerings on the first day of the week.

Hundreds of years before the RCC copied and mandated such things. Protestants are not obeying the RCC regarding anything related to the first day of the week.

You are conflating the the idea that the fourth commandment (7th day) has been replaced by the 1st day just because the guys met up on the 1st day. That is a skewed and pathetically weak logic which suits those who are opposed to God's Law......the very Law Jesus died to uphold.

Besides this, you are unfamiliar with the claims of the RCC.....that's called ignorance.

 

[ewq1938]

You are conflating the the idea that the fourth commandment (7th day) has been replaced by the 1st day just because the guys met up on the 1st day.

No, the 4th commandment and Sabbath was fulfilled at the cross and is no longer law in the new covenant.

That is a skewed and pathetically weak logic which suits those who are opposed to God's Law......the very Law Jesus died to uphold.

Besides this, you are unfamiliar with the claims of the RCC.....that's called ignorance.

Ignoring their claims is not ignorance but listening to their claims and accepting them is.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Yet you argue fervently against the Commandments

Not against the ones included in the New Covenant.

Sorry pal, going to church on Saturday only is not a commandment given by Jesus or His Apostles.

But, it's a free country so you are free to play like Jesus and His Apostles actually required this for salvation.

This tells me you've swallowed the narrative of Big Brother even while thinking you are resisting him. It is known as double think or cognitive dissonance.

The problem here is... you have been indoctrinated by a cult!

My original statement that American Christians ought to be standing in defense of the constitution still stands.

You mean like getting guns and killing those that don't support the constitution?

Yer not like going to be the next mass shooter are ya?

Your comment leads people to believe you could be... and where in God's Word does the Lord or His Apostles instruct us to take up arms and fight for any of the governments of this world?

So you are Catholic?

Er... no. Are you?

The catholics are just as bad as the calvinists and the lutherns at bringing forth false doctrine.

Why are you preaching against the laws of God? You can't state the law is invalid and complain about lawlessness in the same sentence.

I'm not against the Law of Christ which is what the New Covenant teaches.

God put morality in the heart of man... and that is breaking down fast all across the world.

 

[quietthinker]

Not against the ones included in the New Covenant.

Sorry pal, going to church on Saturday only is not a commandment given by Jesus or His Apostles.

But, it's a free country so you are free to play like Jesus and His Apostles actually required this for salvation.

I see you consider yourself a good arbitrator!

 

[BarneyFife]

Big Boy Johnson said:
Sorry pal, going to church on Saturday only is not a commandment given by Jesus or His Apostles.

.
There is no "commandment given to go to church on Saturday only" by anyone that has been suggested in the discussions on this forum.
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[Timtofly]

You are conflating the the idea that the fourth commandment (7th day) has been replaced by the 1st day just because the guys met up on the 1st day. That is a skewed and pathetically weak logic which suits those who are opposed to God's Law......the very Law Jesus died to uphold.

Besides this, you are unfamiliar with the claims of the RCC.....that's called ignorance.

The 4th Commandment says humans are to work 6 days a week. How many do you know work 6 days a week?

No one Remembers the Sabbath day. Most redeemed today deny there was even a Sabbath Day of the Lord. They deny the soon Coming Sabbath Day of the Lord, because they deny and refuse to Remember the first Sabbath Day of the Lord.

God told them not to work on Saturday sure. But Sataurday does not mean Sabbath Day. Saturday is the 7th day of the week. Sabbath is a day set aside for rest.

Technically having a two day weekend rest is breaking the Commandment which is:

Six days shalt thou labour.

Working 7 days a week is just a way to enter an early grave. Unless one does not really work. Working a few hours a day for 7 days a week, is not really working, but giving into the demands of a society that is nonstop 24/7. If people spend two days a week shopping and having fun, they create the need for others to work on those "fun days" so they can please themselves.

The Sabbath was a day set aside for the entire society to do absolutely nothing. Not catch up on missed opportunities from the other 6 days.

But the 4th Commandment was not just about doing nothing for one day. It was about Remembering something that sin and death has totally removed from human thought.

How can any one today Remember a reality that no one even accepts, much less teaches to others, so they can remember?

 

[quietthinker]

The 4th Commandment says humans are to work 6 days a week. How many do you know work 6 days a week?

No one Remembers the Sabbath day. Most redeemed today deny there was even a Sabbath Day of the Lord. They deny the soon Coming Sabbath Day of the Lord, because they deny and refuse to Remember the first Sabbath Day of the Lord.

God told them not to work on Saturday sure. But Sataurday does not mean Sabbath Day. Saturday is the 7th day of the week. Sabbath is a day set aside for rest.

Technically having a two day weekend rest is breaking the Commandment which is:

Six days shalt thou labour.

Working 7 days a week is just a way to enter an early grave. Unless one does not really work. Working a few hours a day for 7 days a week, is not really working, but giving into the demands of a society that is nonstop 24/7. If people spend two days a week shopping and having fun, they create the need for others to work on those "fun days" so they can please themselves.

The Sabbath was a day set aside for the entire society to do absolutely nothing. Not catch up on missed opportunities from the other 6 days.

But the 4th Commandment was not just about doing nothing for one day. It was about Remembering something that sin and death has totally removed from human thought.

How can any one today Remember a reality that no one even accepts, much less teaches to others, so they can remember?

Irrespective of how we turn the view, I read the Commandments and the fourth says to remember the Sabbath day. It tells me which day that is and how it is to impact those within my immediate circle. It also gives me the reasons why I am to remember it. I don't find it difficult to understand.
What other folk choose to do, they choose to do. How other folk choose to see, they choose to see. I will allow them that liberty.

 

[Brakelite]

No, most go to church on Sundays because the Apostles were taught by Paul on a Sunday long before Rome started a Christian church.

It is true that Paul taught folk on the first day of the week, and it was a long time before it was called Sunday. But he also taught folk on other days of the week as well, including the Sabbath. If you are going to justify Sunday on account of one verse mentioning issues preaching on the first day, then surely the justification for observing the Sabbath is 50 times stronger when you consider the times Paul taught on the Sabbath.

some seem to prefer the claims of the RCC over actual biblical evidence.

Lol. The irony is palpable.

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week.

So?

The disciples gathering on the first day of the week.

Again, LOL. The scripture itself tells you WHY they were gathered together. They were cowering in fear that they were next to hang. Nothing about worship or obedience to any apostolic commandment.

Paul preaching to the other Apostles on the first day of the week.

Actually, technically correct, but it was in fact a Saturday night. And they were gathered together to havea farewell dinner. Paul was leaving the next morning. Sunday morning. Hardly the activity of a leading Apostle advocating Sunday sacredness.

Collecting monetary offerings on the first day of the week.

Oh please. Read the verse again. Paul was picking up the money when he arrives at a later date. And they countered their takings in business on the first day because the faithfully refused to do that on the Sabbath.

Sorry pal, going to church on Saturday only is not a commandment

Very true. So?

You mean like getting guns and killing those that don't support the constitution?

Yer not like going to be the next mass shooter are ya?

Your comment leads people to believe you could be... and where in God's Word does the Lord or His Apostles instruct us to take up arms and fight for any of the governments of this world?

Hahaha. My comment in favour of the constitution and a republican democratic government has lead people to believe that I am an advocate for school terrorism and mass murder? Now you are sounding like a ridiculous extreme left wing woke anti constitution/bill of rights cult member of Oprah Winfrey's "Friends of Anyone not Protestant" church. Truth is, the sum total of your posts leads people to believe you could be a TROLL.

 

[Brakelite]

@Brakelite says: "I can't perfectly obey all the commandments. In fact, I can't even obey one of them, let alone all ten. At least, not by myself. But in Christ I can do all things. By faith in God's grace and power, He will change me. God is able and willing to do whatever it takes in order to make my life such as will bring Him glory and honour. I rest in Him, "for without Me ye can do nothing". This is not a presumptuous rest, by which I expect to be living in glory whilst retaining the old addictions, habits, and sins of my past. The promise is that should I repent and seek forgiveness, He will forgive me and cleanse me of all unrighteousness. I believe that this work which He began, He will finish."

AMEN AMEN AMEN

Christ BEGAN His Good Work in us and HE promises that HE will complete it to the End = on our behalf.
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Therefore, my Hope is not in the commandments but in HIM thru Whom the Commandments Reside.


This does not mean i cast-off His commandments, but that I rely on the Holy Spirit who writes God's Law on our hearts.

Hebrews 8:10-12
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

This may surprise many, but I think you have articulated above an accurate representation of Seventh Day Adventist theology.

 

[ewq1938]

It is true that Paul taught folk on the first day of the week, and it was a long time before it was called Sunday. But he also taught folk on other days of the week as well, including the Sabbath. If you are going to justify Sunday on account of one verse mentioning issues preaching on the first day, then surely the justification for observing the Sabbath is 50 times stronger when you consider the times Paul taught on the Sabbath.

Paul pretended to be a Jew (belief in Judaism) and preached in temples on Saturday only to convert people to Christianity. He taught Christians on Sunday. He did not teach even one time for Christians to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

 

[Brakelite]

Paul pretended to be a Jew (belief in Judaism) and preached in temples on Saturday only to convert people to Christianity. He taught Christians on Sunday. He did not teach even one time for Christians to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

You are guessing. Not one word of the above can be substantiated from scripture. Paul never at any time pretended to be anything, let alone something other than a Christian. You are getting more and more desperate to defend the indefensible.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul never at any time pretended to be anything, let alone something other than a Christian.

You don't know scripture very well.


1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


He will pretend to be whatever the other is to have the best chance to evangelize them.

 

[quietthinker]

You don't know scripture very well.


1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


He will pretend to be whatever the other is to have the best chance to evangelize them.

Your conclusion is out of context. What he is saying is he doesn't hammer them with facts he knows they won't understand. He is also saying that you don't berate a toddler because he isn't running....yet. You work with him at his level.

 

[David in NJ]

This may surprise many, but I think you have articulated above an accurate representation of Seventh Day Adventist theology.

This does not surprise me at all.

What will surprise you, with great Joy, is the discovery of this:

Why God said: Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

AND this: Exodus 33:14
Then Moses said to the Lord, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people.’ But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.’ Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.”

And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”


Same God said the same thing when HE came to earth -

At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[BarneyFife]

This does not surprise me at all.

What will surprise you, with great Joy, is the discovery of this:

Why God said: Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

AND this: Exodus 33:14
Then Moses said to the Lord, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people.’ But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.’ Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.”

And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”


Same God said the same thing when HE came to earth -

At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

.
It certainly gives me great joy but it is no new discovery nor a surprise at all.

It just goes to show that the rest that comes from abiding in God's grace as a whole, while all-encompassing, is distinct from the admittedly subordinate, yet no less necessary rest that comes weekly via the fourth commandment provision, and if men called "Jews" needed it under the Old Covenant, then men today—who are no different in biological composition but have more stress and tension due to increasing evil—need it as much if not even more.

There seems to be a wildly ironic, comprehensive misunderstanding that a Christian lifestyle that includes weekly observance of the Sabbath day precludes the experience of appreciating the substitutionary atonement.

On the contrary, it simply cannot be overstated how essential the weekly Sabbath is to maintaining an awareness of the amazing grace of God that sustains and transforms life both physically and spiritually throughout the entire week.

As long as this presupposition prevails among Sabbath objectors there is likely to be little consensus among Christians who simply will not consider the religious implications of divinely-designed circaseptan biology and those whose consciences will afford them no such assumed luxury.

Even the scientific community is coming to recognize this and no amount of postmodern philosophy applied to traditional interpretations of Scripture will succeed in unseating it.
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[Big Boy Johnson]

Hahaha. My comment in favour of the constitution and a republican democratic government has lead people to believe that I am an advocate for school terrorism and mass murder? Now you are sounding like a ridiculous extreme left wing woke anti constitution/bill of rights cult member of Oprah Winfrey's "Friends of Anyone not Protestant" church. Truth is, the sum total of your posts leads people to believe you could be a TROLL.

You are the one that said "My original statement that American Christians ought to be standing in defense of the constitution still stands"

Standing in defense... of secular government is not something the New Covenant teaches... so it's only natural to think someone making this kind of statement is capable of being the next mass shooter since this is something past mass shooters have said.

When making statements such as this, one might want to explain exactly how they think this should be done.

The Lord is not going to come save the US... He's not an American and His Kingdom if not of this world and if it was His servants would fight (John 18:36)

Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Mark 3:24) so don't start crying when the nation fails.

I see you consider yourself a good arbitrator!

God's Word says what it says... when the future gets here we'll see where everyone ends up.

 

[Phil .]

All inner & outer conflicts are beliefs about consciousness.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

All inner & outer conflicts are beliefs about consciousness.

Yeah, some think God's Word is subjective and it's all about our conscience and how we feel.

 

[David in NJ]

.
It certainly gives me great joy but it is no new discovery nor a surprise at all.

It just goes to show that the rest that comes from abiding in God's grace as a whole, while all-encompassing, is distinct from the admittedly subordinate, yet no less necessary rest that comes weekly via the fourth commandment provision, and if men called "Jews" needed it under the Old Covenant, then men today—who are no different in biological composition but have more stress and tension due to increasing evil—need it as much if not even more.

There seems to be a wildly ironic, comprehensive misunderstanding that a Christian lifestyle that includes weekly observance of the Sabbath day precludes the experience of appreciating the substitutionary atonement.

On the contrary, it simply cannot be overstated how essential the weekly Sabbath is to maintaining an awareness of the amazing grace of God that sustains and transforms life both physically and spiritually throughout the entire week.

As long as this presupposition prevails among Sabbath objectors there is likely to be little consensus among Christians who simply will not consider the religious implications of divinely-designed circaseptan biology and those whose consciences will afford them no such assumed luxury.

Even the scientific community is coming to recognize this and no amount of postmodern philosophy applied to traditional interpretations of Scripture will succeed in unseating it.
'

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@BarneyFife says: "no less necessary rest that comes weekly via the fourth commandment provision, and if men called "Jews" needed it under the Old Covenant, then men today—who are no different in biological composition but have more stress and tension due to increasing evil—need it as much if not even more."

The obedience to the 4th Commandment as per GOD"S infallable words was permanently attached to the OLD Covenant.
When MESSIAH came to earth the LORD fulfilled the OLD Covenant and by His Death on the Cross brought us to
a NEW and BETTER Covenant whereby the SABBATH REST of GOD is ONLY in CHRIST JESUS our LORD.
A NEW Covenant for a NEW DAY = TODAY, if you will hear His Voice......"I will give you REST" = from the law that cannot save anyone.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." - Romans 10:4

Brother @BarneyFife , rejoice in in the GOPSEL and specifically where the LORD Jesus stated this TRUTH.

All Scripture, that pertains to God's Holiness and God's Sabbath Rest, does not stand alone.

Examine and dwell on the Holy Scriptures posted in #555 and there are more.


It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. - Proverbs 25:2