Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.

Stop messing with the Scriptures.

LOL
That's a very strange response to the OP.
Here it is again. Messing with scriptures?

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?

The truth is that the hell doctrine has been softened to be "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???
Language that better aligns with the beliefs of the church that has rejected the "hell fire and brimstone" message.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Patrick1966 said:
Perhaps but I too am saddened and offended to hear others describe our amazing and loving creator as an unforgiving sadist.

So sad you don't read the Scriptures.

In his absence, Patrick1966 will not be able to defend himself.
I can attest that he has read plenty.

Interesting that if someone doesn't align themselves with your doctrinal views,
that you would accuse them of ignorance by claiming that they don't read the scriptures.
On the simple basis that they disagree with you. Is that good debate form?

[

 

[Johann]

Patrick1966 said:
Perhaps but I too am saddened and offended to hear others describe our amazing and loving creator as an unforgiving sadist.

In his absence, Patrick1966 will not be able to defend himself.
I can attest that he has read plenty.

Interesting that if someone doesn't align themselves with your doctrinal views,
that you would accuse them of ignorance by claiming that they don't read the scriptures.
On the simple basis that they disagree with you. Is that good debate form?

[

You are tirelessly busy undermining the Scriptures and leading others astray with your heretical view of universalism-tell me, is Satan also going to be saved in the "all in all" in Christ Jesus?

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14, NKJV).

"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10, NKJV).

J.

 

[Behold]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.

Jesus taught more on Hell then He taught on Heaven.
And He wasn't "embarrassed" even once.

So. im these, "last days", you have "Scoffers" as defined by the NT.

These are "bible correctors", = people who have no respect for the bible, and they are also the same who are trying to air condition Hell, before they move in..

 

[Johann]

Interesting that if someone doesn't align themselves with your doctrinal views,

My doctrinal views are grounded in the Scriptures-yours, however, seem very selective. Seeing your posts, you've taken this forum by storm, pushing universalism while ignoring the reality of Hell and the fact that God's wrath is presently abiding on all those who disbelieve.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18, NKJV).

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36, NKJV).
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46, NKJV).

Why are you adding to-or rather, subtracting from-the plain words recorded in Scripture?

"Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar" (Proverbs 30:6, NKJV).

"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life" (Revelation 22:18-19, NKJV).

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

You are tirelessly busy undermining the Scriptures and leading others astray with your heretical view of universalism-tell me, is Satan also going to be saved in the "all in all" in Christ Jesus?

Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
In heaven, on earth and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)
An absolute triumph of grace.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his?
Does he operate at a lower standard than he holds us to?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Why are you adding to-or rather, subtracting from-the plain words recorded in Scripture?

That saw cuts both ways.

Did you remove these scriptures from your Bible?

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The Disappearance of Hell by John MacArthur

According to recent polls, some 81 percent of adult Americans believe in heaven, and fully 80 percent expect to go there when they die. By comparison, about 61

www.ligonier.org

Have you seen this video below of John MacArthur lamenting the sorry state of Evangelicalism in 2022?

Ligonier ministries had done a survey of Evangelicals. The findings, per MacArthur, were "shocking".

65% of Evangelicals agreed that everyone is born innocent.
55% agreed that the Bible is not literally true.
56% agreed that God accepts worship from all religions.
43% agreed that Jesus was a good teacher, but not God.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

I have given this quite a bit of thought.

What does the hell doctrine say about the character of God?​

...burned away only to be replaced with fresh flesh to be burned again and again. Hard to imagine a more sadistic or cruel punishment for a temporal crime. Justice? Nope. Couldn't this have been avoided with a simple discussion? Ten seconds in hell would be enough for anyone to get the...

The Biblical Truth About Hell - video and transcript​

Here's a video about The Biblical Truth About Hell Transcript below. This comes from the view of Annihilationism, which challenges the forever burning hell doctrine of eternal conscious torment. My personal view is that of Ultimate Redemption of all humankind. But this video makes a lot of...

To Hell and Back - Visiting Gehenna​

Drew (and company) travels to Jerusalem to visit hell and finds it to be a very pleasant place actually. Say what? - What did you learn from the video? /

Sugar coating hell - the bitter pill​

"Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) A follow-up to the previous topic: The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it? The hell doctrine has always been "the fly in the ointment" for me. Being raised evangelical, I was fine with all of it, (didn't know any...

The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?​

Even very by-the-book Christians are modifying their views on hell, or the afterlife. As the previous trend for fire-and-brimstone preaching has all but gone the way of the dinosaur. Leaning toward a more personalized stance on "eternal separation from God". (whatever that means to you) -...

The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity​

What's your view on the final judgement? Here are the three popular biblical views: 1) Damnationism 2) Annihilationism 3) Universalism All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.

Jesus talked about hell more than any other person in the Bible. - Seriously?​

Brook Potter “When someone says that Jesus taught about Hell more than anything else in his earthly ministry, it’s obvious that person get’s their theology from Christian Television more so than from study.” One of the most common logical fallacies used by Christians is the fallacy of...

Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?​

Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell. Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick. If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there. I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't...

Open Discussion of UR Chapter Five - When Was Hell Invented?​

GOOGLE question; "when was the word hell invented?" GOOGLE's answer; About 17,400,000 results (0.46 seconds) The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period...

Open Discussion of UR Chapter Four - The Gates of Hell...​

Jesus said, "... I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18 NIV Question #1) What are the gates of hell? Question #2) What does it mean to not prevail? Question #3) How should the church (the Body of Christ) respond to this? Question #4) How...

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Seeing your posts, you've taken this forum by storm...

There is something to that. Thanks.

I have brought a much-needed breath of fresh air to my Christian brothers and sisters
who are tired of the suffocating status quo of their religious upbringing.

Many have rallied with me to speak out about important issues that need to be discussed.
Those who want to defend the status quo have rallied against me. Which doesn't really bother me.
Their voices are as important as those who disagree with them. I want a free and open forum.

In contrast, you want me to shut my mouth and stop exercising my freedom to speak out.

[

 

[Johann]

Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
In heaven, on earth and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)
An absolute triumph of grace.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his?
Does he operate at a lower standard than he holds us to?

[

Nice deflection-is Satan also going to be saved?


What's the potential issue?
Universalism often uses verses like Philippians 2:10-11 to suggest that this bowing and confessing leads to universal salvation.

However, Scripture consistently teaches that while all will recognize Christ's Lordship, salvation comes only through faith in Him.

Scriptural Context Against Universalism:
Philippians 2:10-11 states that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord, but it doesn't indicate salvation for all. Even those under the earth (the realm of the dead) will bow in submission, but not necessarily in saving faith.

James 2:19 reminds us that "even the demons believe-and tremble!" Acknowledging Christ's Lordship does not equal salvation.

Answer the question @St. SteVen-are demons also going to be saved?

Is universalism / universal salvation biblical?
Is annihilationism biblical?

Matthew 7:13-14 describes the narrow gate leading to life and the broad path leading to destruction, affirming that not all will be saved:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."
Matthew 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment for some and eternal life for others:

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
This shows that God's justice and grace operate together, and His judgment is not annulled by universal grace.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 indicates eternal separation from God for those who do not know Him:

"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."

Clarification:
Yes, God's grace is triumphant through the Cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but that triumph is applied to those who believe. Romans 5:1-2 says, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand."


While every knee will bow to Christ, this submission doesn't automatically translate into salvation for all, as universalism claims.

The biblical teaching emphasizes the need for personal faith in Jesus for salvation, while acknowledging that Christ's rule is absolute, whether acknowledged willingly or unwillingly.

J.

 

[Johann]

There is something to that. Thanks.

I have brought a much-needed breath of fresh air to my Christian brothers and sisters
who are tired of the suffocating status quo of their religious upbringing.

Many have rallied with me to speak out about important issues that need to be discussed.
Those who want to defend the status quo have rallied against me. Which doesn't really bother me.
Their voices are as important as those who disagree with them. I want a free and open forum.

In contrast, you want me to shut my mouth and stop exercising my freedom to speak out.

[

It's your right to promulgate lies, no one is stopping you.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
In heaven, on earth and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)
An absolute triumph of grace.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his?
Does he operate at a lower standard than he holds us to?

Nice deflection-is Satan also going to be saved?

Who can say for certain?
We differ in that you think grace should be limited in scope.
I think grace should be universal in scope.

What's the potential issue?
Universalism often uses verses like Philippians 2:10-11 to suggest that this bowing and confessing leads to universal salvation.

However, Scripture consistently teaches that while all will recognize Christ's Lordship, salvation comes only through faith in Him.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Scriptural Context Against Universalism:
Philippians 2:10-11 states that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord, but it doesn't indicate salvation for all. Even those under the earth (the realm of the dead) will bow in submission, but not necessarily in saving faith.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

James 2:19 reminds us that "even the demons believe-and tremble!" Acknowledging Christ's Lordship does not equal salvation.

Do you not also believe that Christians should fear God? What's the difference?

Answer the question @St. SteVen-are demons also going to be saved?

I hope so. That would be an absolute triumph of grace.
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What will he do with his own?

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Is universalism / universal salvation biblical?
Is annihilationism biblical?

Both are biblical and contradictory. Same with Damnationism.
All three doctrines of the final judgement are both biblical and contradictory.
Live with it.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

It's your right to promulgate lies, no one is stopping you.

J.

That saw cuts both ways. - LOL

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Answer the question @St. SteVen-are demons also going to be saved?

I hope so. That would be an absolute triumph of grace.
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What will he do with his own?

In the age of restoration all things will be restored.
There will be healing for the nations and between individuals.
Everyone will answer for their lives.

I could see that extending into the angelic realm.
Each angel would answer for their deeds.
Last one standing would Satan himself. The last one to be
evaluated/corrected/restored/redeemed.

That would be an absolute triumph of grace.

I'm guessing that you are appalled at the thought.
But you already approve of the vast majority of humankind
being trapped pointlessly in eternal conscious torment.
So, why would you care?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Nice deflection-is Satan also going to be saved?

If God could save you, why couldn't he save Satan?

[

 

[Johann]

If God could save you, why couldn't he save Satan?

[

Friend, I’ll leave it to the readers to discern the truth of your posts.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2 Timothy 4:3, NKJV).

Your words may be warped and deceptive, but you have the right to promote whatever you wish.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies" (2 Peter 2:1, NKJV).

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Friend, I’ll leave it to the readers to discern the truth of your posts.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2 Timothy 4:3, NKJV).

Your words may be warped and deceptive, but you have the right to promote whatever you wish.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies" (2 Peter 2:1, NKJV).

J.

Really? How gracious of you.
You defame my character with charges of false doctrine ("warped and deceptive") while calling me friend?
And playing the God card by quoting scriptures against me. Kind of a Judas kiss. IMHO

[

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The OP is about the cause of the shift from hellfire and brimstone preaching
to eternal separation from God preaching. (whatever that means to you) ???

You are right in that the "traditional concept of Eternal Hell" has been a stumbling block for many. I don't accept it either; because I think the Lake of Fire is an event at the end of time, a final judgment of destruction. We already talked about this.

Why I'm NOT a Christian. - Or so they say...

--- PARODY --- Christian #1: Are you a Christian? Christian #2: Yes, although I'm not completely comfortable with that term. Christian #1: You aren't comfortable being a Christian? Christian #2: No, it's the term "Christian". Christian #1: Shouldn't you stand up for what you believe? Christian...

www.christianityboard.com

Did not God already reconcile the world unto himself through Christ?

No, He offers salvation on one condition: Jesus and the disciples tell us that we must believe that He died for our sins, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day. That is the prerequisite for salvation!

Can we really trust a God like that?
Sounds like he has anger management issues

Sin must be judged. If one does not ask for and receive forgiveness, then you forfeit your soul.

The gates of heaven will never be closed

Wrong. After the final judgment, eternal life is sealed. The New Jerusalem does not appear to have any existence outside of it. Hades and Death will have been destroyed. Destroy means to put an end to. You cannot destroy something over and over; that would be an indestructible destruction, a contradiction.

What does this tell you about "biblical inerrancy"?

More doubts? Every thread of yours seems like another doubt concerning God, the Bible ... and His judgment. Why? Maybe you are a liberal who does not want to give up his sin, clinging to his lifestyle/ ways?
This might be why you question everything and come up with alternate views in order to justify doing whatever you do. If you eliminate the final judgment in your own theological view, God is more appealing, forgiving everyone, no matter how they live, what they do or believe. Then you can just continue to do live how you want.

The church was turning people off with the fundamentalist teaching.
But this meant either watering down the doctrines to make them palatable, or
re-evaluating the doctrines to make sense of them. A literal reading wasn't working.

No, the Church is doing just fine, not turning people off. It has grown as much - as God has ordained it to. (2.7 billion).
A literal reading has worked just fine - just not with you. Symbolism is usually explained. God's message is intact - you just don't like it!
Even my Dad (a professed atheist for most of his life), said that you can't just accept in part of the Bible, you have to accept all of it! In his 80's, he finally did.

God is love. He loves everyone. He doesn't hate the person that wants nothing to do with him.
We call God Father for good reason.

As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'".
Think of all those He destroyed in the Flood of Noah - or do you think that's a myth too? Did God love those people? I think not. That would be a strange way of expressing His love. He said they were wicked and evil ALL THE TIME.

I think it is sometimes a misunderstanding to claim that an Atheist doesn't believe in God.
The church will call anyone who doesn't believe in the God they are presenting, is an Atheist.
In some/most cases they are in fact ONLY rejecting the God presented by the institutional church.

There are only a few choices:
1. belief in One God,
2. belief in many gods,
3. belief in no God (and most of these cling to the TOE).
Even a so called Agnostic, who says there is no sure way to prove he exists or doesn't, does not believe either.
Sure people can realize that there is a God but not like the one presented in the Bible, so they create their own that they are comfortable with. Hindus believe in many gods, they just pick the ones they like: Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna ... The god of Islam is much different than Jesus as well as their religion.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Restore every "thing" - not soul. Paradise reborn will be the first earth restored to perfection, our atmosphere, botanicals, animals, every thing about it - No defects. Why does this not apply to souls? Because all believers will not be restored to their original state, they will receive new eternal bodies.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Salvation is brought as the gospel is spread throughout the world - but many reject it. If lunch was brought to you today by a friend, it doesn't follow that you will eat it. You might not like it, it may disagree with your taste and you might say, no thanks.

 

[Johann]

More doubts? Every thread of yours seems like another doubt concerning God, the Bible ... and His judgment. Why? Maybe you are a liberal who does not want to give up his sin, clinging to his lifestyle/ ways?
This might be why you question everything and come up with alternate views in order to justify doing whatever you do. If you eliminate the final judgment in your own theological view, God is more appealing, forgiving everyone, no matter how they live, what they do or believe. Then you can just continue to do live how you want.

Last nail in the proverbial coffin.
Couldn't agree more.

J.