Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

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MatthewG

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I don't believe that all people are of God but, eventually, ALL will be his.
Did you know from the fulfillment perspective and looking at revelation 21-22.

Everyone in the world has been saved from sin, death, hell, satan, the false prophet, the beast and the wrath of God?

Just not everyone is saved to the Kingdom because of the choices people decide, either to be born again, or reject and focus only here in this life?

Somewhere it is stated that God is not mocked people reap what they sow be it to the spiritual aspects of the after life or sow to this fleshly world here.
 

Patrick1966

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Just not everyone is saved to the Kingdom because of the choices people decide, either to be born again, or reject and focus only here in this life?
Paul says all will go to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15. So, yes, ALL will be with God in his kingdom. However, some of us will go the nice and easy was and others will have to go through "fire & brimstone" to get there.
 

MatthewG

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Paul says all will go to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15. So, yes, ALL will be with God in his kingdom. However, some of us will go the nice and easy was and others will have to go through "fire & brimstone" to get there.
Patrick1966,

You seem to be someone who fights against the lake of fire, but its something that needs to be explained. Or maybe its something you have yet to really question?

How do you explain it? How would you explain it to a widow, who pulled out there bible and talked about her husbands unbelief and she points you and asks what does it mean?

1 Corinthains 15 talks about the defeat of Jesus enemies, all that i mentioned a minute ago.
 

MatthewG

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Oh I am sorry I misread, @Patrick1966.

However, some of us will go the nice and easy was and others will have to go through "fire & brimstone" to get there.

That is something I believe too. The fire is eternal coming from God that is in the front of the angels and the Lamb, and it's something where they are confronted by the choice to accept or not to accept, and fire of love is full of truth.

However, I would suggest that going through the narrow gate, and the way that is strait is full of suffering, to some degree.

Philippians 3​

New Living Translation​

The Priceless Value of Knowing Christ​

3 Whatever happens, my dear brothers and sisters,[a] rejoice in the Lord. I never get tired of telling you these things, and I do it to safeguard your faith.
2 Watch out for those dogs, those people who do evil, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. 3 For we who worship by the Spirit of God[b] are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort, 4 though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!
5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. 6 I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
7 I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. 8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ 9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ.[c] For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. 10 I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, 11 so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!

Pressing toward the Goal​

12 I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. 13 No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it,[d] but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us.
15 Let all who are spiritually mature agree on these things. If you disagree on some point, I believe God will make it plain to you. 16 But we must hold on to the progress we have already made.
17 Dear brothers and sisters, pattern your lives after mine, and learn from those who follow our example. 18 For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and they think only about this life here on earth. 20 But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior. 21 He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.
 
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Patrick1966

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1 Corinthains 15 talks about the defeat of Jesus enemies...
No, it talks about ALL of his enemies coming under his feet. They eventually repent and follow Jesus.

Why do you say that I "fight" against the Lake of Fire? The LOF is something that is mysterious to us but it used to SAVE the lost, not to torture them into perpetuity.

I have told grieving people who lost very sinful loved ones that this world is corrupt and evil but that Jesus is merciful, just, loving, capable, and willing to fix ALL of us, even those that lack belief. Jesus saves. He doesn't discard us as garbage and burn us forever. Satan has infiltrated the church and convinced most Christians that Jesus does EXACTLY that.
 
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Patrick1966

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That is something I believe too. The fire is eternal coming from God that is in the front of the angels and the Lamb, and it's something where they are confronted by the choice to accept or not to accept, and fire of love is full of truth.

I think you're coming around my brother.

Most Christians believe this verse to describe people being tortured without (apparently) any purpose. However, they are mistaken. Actually, this verse is describing the purification process. The word "torment" is also used to describe testing. Sulfur is a refining agent.

Revelation 14:10 ESV
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
 

MatthewG

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No, it talks about ALL of his enemies coming under his feet. They eventually repent and follow Jesus.

@Patrick1966, *edited

The Last Enemy Destroyed​

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

To me it suggest that the enemies that were against God, and put the Son of God to death, and all i mentioned previously sin, death, hell, satan, the false prophet, and the beast, and the wrath released on Jerusalem is all over today? Are all put away and done with.

That is what the fulfillment view suggest:
Did you know because of Jesus and his victory over all his enemies allows everyone in the world has been saved from sin, death, hell, satan, the false prophet, the beast and the wrath of God (which was poured out on Jerusalem for killing his Son)?

However that doesn't mean everyone is saved to the Kingdom of God right when they die.

Check out post number #104.


That lake of fire is the trip for unbelievers which comes from God (Revelation says they only have a part), and is front the Lamb and the angels, but it's probably not a fun experience like going to a swimming park, but it's a reality check in which perhaps those outside the kingdom, go and experience when they choose to do so, up there in the heavenly realm.
Why do you say that I "fight" against the Lake of Fire? The LOF is something that is mysterious to us but it used to SAVE the lost, not to torture them into perpetuity.
I didn't mean to put the question like that.
I have told grieving people who lost very sinful loved ones that this world is corrupt and evil but that Jesus is merciful, just, loving, capable, and willing to fix ALL of us, even those that lack belief. Jesus saves. He doesn't discard us as garbage and burn us forever. Satan has infiltrated the church and convinced most Christians that Jesus EXACTLY that.
I was just curious of how you explain it, no judgement here, just sharing information to consider between each other.
 
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MatthewG

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@Patrick1966,

There seems eternal consequences though, the spiritual body of the unbeliever may not be able to dwell so well in the light.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 [h]But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Perhaps now considering Revelation 20 is done, and 21-22 is established under the rule of God, it seems that heaven has two parts.

Outside of the city - and inside of the city.

There are also 3 different types of resurrections.

Resurrection for the unbeliever,
Resurrection for the believer,
Resurrection that is abnormally different and outer than the normal resurrection which is mentioned by Paul in Philippians 3 which was shared earlier. Post #104

sorry for all the bold.
 
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St. SteVen

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There was a remark somewhere stating Atheist even believe in God, however if they claim there is no God, there was no Son of God, and they simply go on about there own way, even with the natural elements of the world from the universe, which claim the glory of God.

Is it fair for God not to punish them, or chastised them if he does it to his own children?
I think it is sometimes a misunderstanding to claim that an Atheist doesn't believe in God.
The church will call anyone who doesn't believe in the God they are presenting, is an Atheist.
In some/most cases they are in fact ONLY rejecting the God presented by the institutional church.
They may have left the body of believers because they REJECT the definition of God presented.

On that basis, someone could call me an Atheist.
I don't agree completely with the God of the institutional church.
Even definitions within individual denominations may vary.
Where does that leave us?
Do you believe that being show truth can be torturous? However not in the way man things, but in the way God presents it? Not only through the elements, but also through His son, the Jewish people hated it, the Demons hated it, Satan wasnt all that well taken kindly to it either he enjoyed the darkness more.
Do you believe that being show truth can be torturous?
Yes, anyone has been to a deep psychology, or psychiatric, session, knows the
emotional pain and terror of opening up about deep issues and hurts.

Jesus said weeping and grinding of teeth.
Imagine being confronted with EVERYTHING in your past, standing
before the very essence of love, who is also omniscient.
No way to dodge questions, or squirm out of the discussion.

Do you believe that being show truth can be torturous? Oh, yes.
But not as is presented by many in the church, who claims that being
in the presence of absolute love will be HELL for unbelievers.

To me, that's science fiction. (oops, I misspelled friction)
Therefore does the Lake of Fire - not hold somethint of value that is light and the more closer you come to the light does it not hurt?
As I said, Eschatology is not my strength. Maybe @FaithWillDo can help us out here?

But I understand the fire to be curative, rather than punitive.
It burns "wood hay and stubble", figuratively speaking.
Does suffering for Christ hurt? Is that not also being baptised in Holy spirit and Fire? Doesnt fire hurt as it burns away things you did in your past life, trusting God even being taken away from the people you may have gotten high with before? Does those things not hurt?
Hurt is a relative term. And there is physical and emotional hurt. (among others)

This is the beauty of UR. (Universal Redemption)
Pain and suffering will be gone forever, AND for everyone.
Can you imagine a more GLORIOUS conclusion to God's love and grace?
I can't.

And what does the institutional church give us?
Unending pain for those trapped in hell and their loved ones trapped in heaven with no recourse.
If its all love and there is no hurt, like Gods repentance at destroying mankind, what is left to experience? How can there be anything learned if you are never hurt by your own choices you once done?
There are natural consequences in this lifetime, and more consequences in the afterlife.
Is that not enough?
Perhaps being mean and hating people, taking life by gossiping and telling lies? By hurting your family by having sex with other women or your children by doing drugs?
Everything done in secret will be shouted from the housetops in that Day. (Age)
 
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MatthewG

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I think it is sometimes a misunderstanding to claim that an Atheist doesn't believe in God.
The church will call anyone who doesn't believe in the God they are presenting, is an Atheist.
In some/most cases they are in fact ONLY rejecting the God presented by the institutional church.
They may have left the body of believers because they REJECT the definition of God presented.
Probably but they would be willingly to express there faith to individuals rather than gripping about the church and start sharing jesus, but also give warnings to be careful of going to such things.
On that basis, someone could call me an Atheist.
I don't agree completely with the God of the institutional church.
Even definitions within individual denominations may vary.
Where does that leave us?
No. I dont even go to church.
Do you believe that being show truth can be torturous?
Yes, anyone has been to a deep psychology, or psychiatric, session, knows the
emotional pain and terror of opening up about deep issues and hurts.
Thank you for your answer.
Jesus said weeping and grinding of teeth.
Imagine being confronted with EVERYTHING in your past, standing
before the very essence of love, who is also omniscient.
No way to dodge questions, or squirm out of the discussion.
It's amazing when people come to experience the truth of Christ, doesn't matter what age, while you are able to either read yourself, or hear someone read to you.
Do you believe that being show truth can be torturous? Oh, yes.
But not as is presented by many in the church, who claims that being
in the presence of absolute love will be HELL for unbelievers.
That is churches, Jesus was hard on people and their traditions of man. However - discerning by the spirit in the way to go about talking over things, is important.
To me, that's science fiction. (oops, I misspelled friction)
What is science fiction?
As I said, Eschatology is not my strength. Maybe @FaithWillDo can help us out here?
That is my favorite topic, but I don't know everything about it. Just only have the word to go on, and the spirit.
But I understand the fire to be curative, rather than punitive.
It burns "wood hay and stubble", figuratively speaking.
Yes, that is my understanding too.
Hurt is a relative term. And there is physical and emotional hurt. (among others)
You could also be hurt when Jesus says something like; eat my blood; drink my flesh; or what comes out of a man defiles him. Some will be humble, some will be like shut the hell up jesus.
This is the beauty of UR. (Universal Redemption)
Pain and suffering will be gone forever, AND for everyone.
Can you imagine a more GLORIOUS conclusion to God's love and grace?
I can't.
I have an idea of the Kingdom from Revelation 21-22, there is an outside and inside of the kingdom of God.

14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 [h]But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Perhaps the resurrected unbelievers have a will outside of the kingdom - and may we have a job to go help them and they come to the lake of fire that comes from God. It's just a theory but one that is hoped for in my heart.

Like I stated I only have the word to go on, and of course the spirit.

And what does the institutional church give us?
Unending pain for those trapped in hell and their loved ones trapped in heaven with no recourse.
Yeah some of them are like that.
There are natural consequences in this lifetime, and more consequences in the afterlife.
Is that not enough?
God gives chance upon chance to accept him in this life, is that not enough chances before death?
Everything done in secret will be shouted from the housetops in that Day. (Age)
This comes to mind,

if it has merit or not - Up to you

Ecclesiastes 12:14 King James Version (KJV)
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Thank you Steven,
Matthew
 

MatthewG

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You seem to be an endless source of questions. Are my responses helpful to you?
Or are you hoping to win a debate in your own mind? (or with audience)

It's good to think. I am a mindless person.

Thank you for the conversation, Steven,
Matthew
 
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Patrick1966

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Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 [h]But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Revelation 22 isn't a timeline but a SUMMARY of the book of Revelation.

Jesus is saying that he is coming and that we should "wash our robes" so that we can enter the city but the unrighteous will remain outside of the city. And the chapter, and indeed the Bible itself, concludes.

1 Corinthians 15 comes AFTER the establishment of New Jerusalem. Jesus's enemies will not enter. Eventually, however, his enemies will look to him and will then be permitted into the city. That will complete the kingdim and it will be given to God the Father.


Revelation 22:12-15 ESV
12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[c] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
 

Patrick1966

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Do you believe that being show truth can be torturous?

That's a great point. I read a book about a defector from North Korea. When they were told that North Korea started the war by invading the south, they were shocked and upset because they realized that their worldview was all wrong. You see, North Korea teaches their people that the U.S. and South Korea started the war.
 
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Patrick1966

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Sorry, I dont submit to man-made imagery like this my friend.

I just try to stick with the word cause it's all I got, you are free to do what you want though.

jesus-weeping-766878.jpg


Revelation 22:1-3
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the THRONE of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the THRONE of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
 
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MatthewG

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Revelation 22 isn't a timeline but a SUMMARY of the book of Revelation.

Jesus is saying that he is coming and that we should "wash our robes" so that we can enter the city but the unrighteous will remain outside of the city. And the chapter, and indeed the Bible itself, concludes.

1 Corinthians 15 comes AFTER the establishment of New Jerusalem. Jesus's enemies will not enter. Eventually, however, his enemies will look to him and will then be permitted into the city. That will complete the kingdim and it will be given to God the Father.


Revelation 22:12-15 ESV
12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[c] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

We definitely differ in our viewpoints in that area, that is alright.

That's a great point. I read a book about a defector from North Korea. When they were told that North Korea started the war by invading the south, they were shocked and upset because they realized that their worldview was all wrong. You see, North Korea teaches their people that the U.S. and South Korea started the war.

That is interesting.

Anyway, to you both @St. SteVen and @Patrick1966

All the best, I believe this topic has been went through pretty well for the most in my opinion.


I could be wrong about it all; but hey, all we have is the word to look at and ponder, what the Spirit says, and how God would do things which we could never think of but I believe his ways would be for the best for all people of the world just and unjust, believer or non-believer.

In love and respect!

Take care.
 
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St. SteVen

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Can eternal (age-during) separation happen for as long as a person desires it to happen be it in this life or the next life?
It's not separation. IMO
The Age of Restoration will be a public event. All eyes watching, all ears hearing. Each individual, one at a time. IMO

Are you asking about a person who claims they want to go to hell?
I imagine it this way...

Hell does not have to last for an eternity to get the message. Ten seconds would be enough.
Or, imagine a person in hell for one day brought out and restored and then asked if they want to go back.
What would be the estimated percentages on return visit requests. Probably zero interest in returning.

With that in mind, what sort of God is the church asking us to believe in? I don't buy it. I know better.

UR is better.