Hell Question

[HammerStone]

So your view is that those who are cast into the Lake of fire will be tortured day and night until the end of the "age", and then they will be burned to annihilation? That still seems to imply that the fire is for torture rather than destruction, or at least for a time. Beyond that it says ages and ages rather than for one limited age as you claim.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Pretty blunt I think, of course this comes right after Revelation 20:10, which seems to be the focus of this discussion.As for 20:10 itself, it's again a bit of a Hebraism meaning unto time itself when it's done, to the age of ages. With Christ's reign once things are returned to their proper state with Our Father, it will be forever, quite obviously as well all agree. Once those who will experience the second death are wiped out, they're gone.However, I have to say that I operate on the principle that if several verses say one thing and one verse seems to contradict, I figure out where I am making the mistake at. I've managed to quote numerous verses that talk about nothingness, death, destruction and several allusions to those topics. They do always seemed to get ignored for that one verse.

Easy, the same way the souls in Heaven live for ever and ever after the FIRST DEATH.
The body dies, which is the first death.I'll go with one more for the road to answer this as well.Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I talked to the customer of mine who is Jehova's witness. She did not believe in hell and she said the hell in the Bible does not mean hell She said those who don't believe in Jesus as their saviour will just turn to dust.God is so merciful, why would God send anybody to the eternal fire/torture, she said.

I said what's the point of having Jesus our Saviour then and try to do good. I don't mind to turn to dust myself then, why then worry how you live your life, because I don't live anymore ,I'm just dust, what an easy way out. Sorry I don't believe in her belief about hell.
And said person would find no one who agrees here.
Hello to all. I have to admit that I feel that I have been shot with a stun-gun. I am just reading all of the posts on this site. To Denver, I would first of all like to say, I'm so sorry. I will not continue to post on this site if that's what you would like.
His by Grace, my intention was not to "ban" you from posting at this website by any stretch, you're always welcome to post here. You'll have to forgive me in my harshness, but your comments came off as being the typical message that the OT is no longer relevant or somehow its less diminished. This is the number one excuse I know that I hear daily that people use to circumvent Biblical teachings. Whether or not you truly meant it that way, I am unsure admittedly, but at the time of my posting I read it that way. I do apologize if I misconstrued your post. I did not intend to hurt any feelings.My comment was merely to say I'm not real interested in holding a discussion where the OT doesn't count for the other party. It was feeling real quick like in this thread that people continually try to equate me with some religious sect/denomination/etc. because of my belief about this particular subject and I am not interested in that kind of thing.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(kriss;33768)
That is what the second death is we are soul/spirit in a flesh body the second death is annihilation if ones soul is destroyed burnt up you no longer exist not even in ones memory. We are told fear not the death of your flesh but fear the death of your soul this is the worst punishment in scripture.
And we should fear the fires of hell more than the death of this body (whatever imagary that means, it must certainly be worse than fire). No one is denying this.A human is a body and an immortal soul. Our belief includes a ressurrection of bodies for everyone, including the damned. Scriptures speak of the soul AND body in Hell. But never mind that, my point was that as humans we die. Yet we continue to exist after that DEATH as a soul. But a spirit is not what we are, humans have a body and an immortal spirit. As just a soul we are incomplete humans. Just as something burning leaves remains, a soul is what is left of us after this life. There is no reason then to assume a person ceases to be after the second death (which is to be damned in Hell). We are talking about an existence, not what kind of existence. If waiting/time can be understood as something such a soul experiences, clearly a disembodied soul awaiting judgement day is not the same state/existence as a person in this life. Yet it is still a person, a human soul. So if we continue to exist after the first Death, why is it impossible to continue to exist after the second Death in Hell? If we say that second death represents a change (as the first clearly does), it is still the death of something. The question is only what exactly remains. If as C S Lewis suggest, what remains merely a poor image of what was, like the ghosts on the screen some us are old enough to remember one could after turning the TV. Still existing but no longer living as anything we could recognize as human and certainly nothing that could ever be human again (as Ezekiel says "never shall thou be anymore"). As opposed to those in Heaven, who die yet rise again and LIVE once more, recognizable not only as who (human) they were in this life, but also something much more (glorifed - to really live as Human as we were created to be)
You cant have both verses Eze. 28 and Rev.20 be true you can not be both turned to ashes and destroyed forever and tortured forever they are contradictions and there is no contradictions in Gods Word so something is being misunderstood. Taking the whole message of the bible into accountand the original language meaning I have to come to the conclusion that hellis a temporary condition and at the final judgement those who do not conform will be destroyed (annihilated)(die the second death)
Am sorry to think that you think anyone opposed to your view of annihilation is not taking the ENTIRE Bible into consideration. As shown above, Ezekiel can be understood in our view as well.But as you are about to claim, scripture meaning is not really the issue here. The real issue is an inability to understand a Loving God that would not annihilate those poor souls. That is not a scriptural problem, it is a theological problem. Clearly we both can see scripture supporting our opposing views. We should drop the scripture tossing and address the real issue. But before we do, we note no one has yet explained why an annihilation understanding of Rev 20:10 does not contradict the WHOLE message view of John's other use of the same phrase. He uses the word in question many times, sometimes only once and in that sense clearly means world or a limited age. But every time he repeats it, he clearly means for ever and ever. So clearly John knows the difference and uses it for both meanings. So why repeat the word twice in this last instance and that be the only time we are to understand him to NOT mean for ever?
Not be tortured for eternity.I think that eternity of torture is against all God teaches us I dont think the concept is Biblically supported as Denver has stated the langues would indicate that the proper term would be till ages and ages end. And when there is a New heavens and new earth all will be perfect without sin how can you also have sinners being punished??? again this would be contrdictory.
Hmmm, God does not torture for eternity. In fact God does not torture at all. And as God Loves all His Children absolutely and we are all God's Children, the punishment of Hell is the choice made not something God does. Hell is also not part of a new Heaven or new Earth. How can it be? Hell is not Good. God made everything Good. Our free-will (and the angels) corrupted what was Good. God promises to restore creation to that original state of ALL GOOD. Obviously whatever or wherever Hell is, it could not be part of what is ALL GOOD.A Saint once troubled with the same thoughts, once prayed for God show her why Hell was not His Wrath on the damned, He showed her and her statement was she only saw the wrath of man.Punishment can be understood in two ways. Do this and I will do that to you. It implies I could choose to do something else and it is my authority and right to choose. If you kids throw rocks again I am going to spank you. The other way punishment can be understood is "if you do this, this will happen to you". If you kids throw rocks you are going to put someone's eye out. Hell is what happens to people that reject God. It is not God's fault they reject Him, Hell is not His torture of someone in Hell, any more than it would be my fault, my torture of some poor one-eyed kid for having warned the kids about throwing rocks.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Look if all you guys want to talk about is the verse, then you need to explain the OBVIOUS contradiction in Revelation. Never mind the rest of the Bible if you cannot explain why John contradicts himself.John, who obviously understood OT (including teachings on Hell) would have to be intentionally misleading in his use of the Greek word in Rev 20:10. Everywhere else where he repeats the word twice, we must ALL agree he means "for ever and ever", which happens to be how that phrase ALWAYS gets translated. {Assuming no one here would claim Jesus does not reign for ever and ever.) He also uses the SAME word only one time elsewhere in sentences where he DOES mean a limited age/world. Why switch it up here in the last chapter? If Hell is for a limited age, then obviously John intentionally obscures that message by using the same phrase he uses to be understood as for "ever and ever" and is clearly opposed to his standard of writing that word ONLY once when he clearly meant (and it gets translated) a limited age/world.

 

[Christina]

obvously you have no understanding of what the second death is so sense you do not understand that part of scripture you should probably educate yourself in this area before you debate me about it.http://www.christianityboard.com/whats-sec...25.html?p=33786Mat. 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(kriss;33785)
obvously you have no understanding of what the second death is so sense you do not understand that part of scripture you should probably educate yourself in this area before you debate me about it.http://www.christianityboard.com/whats-sec...25.html?p=33786Mat. 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
again u avoid the direct question of Rev 20:10 and iIMAGINE that these verses can NOT be reconciled with our view. So since you have yet to address it, can you not reconcile John in Revelation with your view?

 

[Christina]

Im trying to but first you need to understand the second death thats why I gave you the link it does no good to explain when you have not yet studied the entire subject they are related you can not understand one without the other. If you are not willing to take two minutes to read the study its a waste of time to debate a subject you do not fully understandI understand you have an opinion. Your opinion may or may not stay the same but you need the correct facts to decide. Thats what Im trying to present.

 

[Christina]

I found this explanation that expands on what Denver was saying above you cant understand burning in hell forever until you understand how the greek and scripture use this term and then you need to understand the second death. http://www.christianityboard.com/wha...5.html?p=33786........................................................................What Does "For Ever and Ever" Mean?In general, the Greek word aion is translated: forever. However its real meaning is "Age". There are actually two meanings for the word "Age""Age" can mean a human lifetime, or life itself. So it can be a limited time, as long as someone is going to live. "Age" can also mean an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, or an eternity. So it can mean forever and ever. Basically, if the subject is God or Jesus, since they exist in eternity, the meaning of "Age" would be an unbroken age, or an eternity. On the other hand, if the subject is referring to finite human beings, then the meaning of "Age" would be limited to the life-span of a human lifetime. In the Greek New Testament, "Age" almost always refers to the subject of Jesus or God. Since He lives forever, the time that is meant is forever or for an eternity. However in the Old Testament, we have many examples where forever only means the life-time of an individual. The Hebrew language can have the same two meanings. Here is an example, in Old Testament Hebrew, where forever only means how long a person will live. If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed; you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD has blessed you with, you shall give to him. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today. And if it happens that he says to you, 'I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. Deuteronomy 15:12-17 Obviously, the person can only be a servant for as long as he or she lives. He or she does not live for eternity. So forever means only his or her life-time. The idea that forever in the Old Testament Bible can be just a limited lifetime of an individual is common. Lets look in the New Testament. Idiomatic PhrasesIn the New Testament, the word "age" is not used by itself, but rather; It is included in an idiomatic expression or a phrase. These phrases are thought to describe an undefined period of time. There are a number of similar phrases found in the New Testament. All of these phrases are usually translated as: "forever". Here are two typical phrases: In Hebrews 5:6 & 6:20 The phrase: eis ton aiona literally means: "unto the age" and in Hebrews 13:8 the pleural phrase: eis tous aionas literally means: "unto the ages"These two phrases, "unto the age" and "unto the ages", are both translated as "forever". Yet, they can either mean "forever", or they can mean, "for as long as the person lives". So, these phrases do not have to express the idea that the time is forever, or an eternity. They can also be understood to mean the life-span of an individual as well. It depends on the context of the word. This is exactly what we found to be the case in the Hebrew example above. Compound Idiomatic PhrasesNow, lets look at Revelation 14:11 and 20:10. Both of the following phrases are usually translated as: "for ever and ever" In Rev. 14:11 the phrase: eis aionas aionon literally means: "unto ages of ages" In Rev. 20:10 the phrase: eis tous aionas ton anionon literally means: "unto the ages of the ages""Unto ages of ages" and "unto the ages of the ages" are really compound expressions. The expression itself means multiplied ages. Some feel that these compound phrases could more emphatically declare the idea of eternity, so the suffering of the wicked would last forever and ever. However, this view would pit Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 against all the other texts of the Bible that speak of the wicked being destroyed. Even within Revelation 20 itself, this punishment of the wicked is called the second death (Revelation 20:6, 14). The death in which there is no return. So, this idea, that the wicked will suffer for ever and ever, does not make sense.

 

[Hawkins]

(DrBubbaLove;33581)
Agreed that there have been abuses regarding the fear of Hell. However the presence of abuse does not make all use of a teaching false. If it did then ALL teaching is false because we could imagine the abuse of it. The fear of the Lord should only be the beginning of our knowledge of Him, not the end of it or the cause of our wanting to know Him. The reason to fear Hell is because it exists. The reason to seek God is because He exists and we were made to know Him. Not because we fear being thrown into Hell, that is an abuse of the teachings on Hell.
Couldn't agree more.One thing worthy of mentioning is that, 1stI don't think we, as end time Christians in 2008, are more spiritual than those Christians before us. So I think we need to be very careful of new doctrines of this kind. To me, it's almost impossible that when we have a totally different hell concept than those Christian before us and stands correct.2ndno-hell is more candy coated, no doubt3rdno serious consequence could mean that no Christ is necessary, subsequently may lead to anti-Christ doctrines4thit's foretold (I think in Peter 1 or 2) that in the last days, His elect may be deceived5thAs end time Christians, we are more scientific but not necessarily be more spiritual, generally speaking. So I think we need to keep an eye on any new doctrines arised only recently (in the past few decades).Just personal opinions, and I could be abit over suspecious.

 

[HammerStone]

Look if all you guys want to talk about is the verse, then you need to explain the OBVIOUS contradiction in Revelation. Never mind the rest of the Bible if you cannot explain why John contradicts himself.
It's been explained but the explanations have been continually ignored, which seems to be the going method of handling this thread. I just think the whole let's hinge on one verse that disagrees with another 20+ approach is getting very old very fast. Ignoring something else doesn't make one thing true in the Bible no matter how bad you want it to be true.
no serious consequence could mean that no Christ is necessary, subsequently may lead to anti-Christ doctrines
I'm sorry, but that's complete and utter nonsense to say that. It's hardly worth the response, but I don't appreciate the suggestion that we're somehow trying to undermine Christ.
it's foretold (I think in Peter 1 or 2) that in the last days, His elect may be deceived
Sorry, but I couldn't let this slide. I'm seeing a continual trend of failure to read verses properly. My intention is not to demean you in any way, but I would like to quote the actual verse you're probably speaking about.Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Not possible my friend, know your Scripture there. I say it to encourage.

 

[His By Grace]

Could I ask a question? I am very interested to know if there are any particular groups of Christians that believe this doctrine of hell as it is new to me. I am not being disrepectful to anyone. I know it seems to be a worn-out discussion, but it really is very serious to a non-believer looking in on it. It is true what Hawkins said, that someone on the outside looking in could "perceive",though being incorrect, and take this and run with it as a liscense to not be as fearful because they will only feel pain a little while and it will be over and done. They may ask,"What's the big deal in serving the Lord or thinking twice about Him?" Now, I don't believe we should serve Him out of fear only, but Jesus does say to fear Him who can cast you into hell(Luke 12:5,Matt. 18:8,9). I guess we could begin with fear and build to love or even vice versa. I don't know. But, this really is intriguing me to know more of where or why this philosophy ever came about. Maybe since I am from the Bible Belt, that's why I have only heard the fire and brimstone way, but I still see more evidence as far as "at face value" in scripture to believe that way. I know we are to study to show ourselves approved, but should the Bible be so complicated that children can't understand hell? I honestly don't understand the position of hell that you guys or taking besides using defintions of Greek, Hebrew, etc. for verses to explain. But to the average reader, the other way seems clear cut. Maybe I'm not intelligent enough to "get it". Please tell me who else might believe this besides a few people on this site. Thanks for listening and being patient as we learn together.

 

[Faithful]

(thesuperjag;33708)
Everyone... answer this question...If the wicked shall be tormented forever and ever, how can there be a second death?JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Hi Jag,It is quite clear from Revelation 20 that the second death is the Lake of fire.And we see that is where Satan, the beast and false prophet are and are tormented day and night for ever. Spiritual death is seperation from God.There is no longer a physical body because that is changed when Christ returns and what is mortal now becomes immortal. Revelation is not talking about physical death a second time. The judgement of the soul only happens after physical death. And God has the power to cast the soul into hell.But the Lake of Fire is called the second death.Rev 20:10.And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So we see that the second death is not a physical death of flesh but a spiritual death. In that they are seperated from God for ever and ever.faithful.

 

[Christina]

DO YOU GUYS WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS OR KEEP POSTING WHAT YOUR OPINIONS ARE THAT MEN HAVE TOLD YOU??It doesnt matter what our opinions are ITS WHAT GOD SAYS THAT MATTERS. Yes there is a condition of hell but it is temporary How dare some of you say that's not enough to stop sinners this is not your call to make! Are you so arrogant in your believe that you think you can dare judge whats in another's heart?? This thread is not about whether or not there is a state of hell there is this thread is about the fact that there is no burning in Hell for eternityTHE BIBLE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS there is one verse that says this Rev 20:10 Are you guys able to get the fact that that "Forever" in the Greek and the way God uses it means age or ages not eternity DO I NEED TO REMIND YOU THAT THE SCRIPTURE WAS NOT WRITTEN IN ENGLISH IT WAS INTERPTED BY MEN sometimes we need to see what the original word means to understand what GOD says not what men say. You are using one mistranslated verse to base your entire opinion on and ignoring the entire rest of scripture WHAT IS YOUR LOGIC?We are told the second death is the death of your soul ANNIHILATED CEASE TO EXSIST GONE FROM MEMORYTHIS IS GODS WORD ON IT now you can keep your opinions if you so like but it isnt what God says. All souls belong to God He alone will decide what is appropriate.I have given you a link to a study on the second death that explains it and how God uses the terms involved. Did any of you bother to read it?? http://www.christianityboard.com/wha...5.html?p=33786Do many of you care that what you are saying you believe from men is making Gods Word a condradiction therefore implying it lies? For what to prove your own opinons right. You can not have both a second death and a being tortured forever they are CONTRADICTIONS so who is wrong God or your opinions???

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(kriss;33821)
I found this explanation that expands on what Denver was saying above you cant understand burning in hell forever until you understand how the greek and scripture use this term and then you need to understand the second death. http://www.christianityboard.com/wha...5.html?p=33786........................................................................What Does "For Ever and Ever" Mean?In general, the Greek word aion is translated: forever. However its real meaning is "Age". There are actually two meanings for the word "Age""Age" can mean a human lifetime, or life itself. So it can be a limited time, as long as someone is going to live. "Age" can also mean an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, or an eternity. So it can mean forever and ever. Basically, if the subject is God or Jesus, since they exist in eternity, the meaning of "Age" would be an unbroken age, or an eternity. On the other hand, if the subject is referring to finite human beings, then the meaning of "Age" would be limited to the life-span of a human lifetime. In the Greek New Testament, "Age" almost always refers to the subject of Jesus or God. Since He lives forever, the time that is meant is forever or for an eternity. However in the Old Testament, we have many examples where forever only means the life-time of an individual. The Hebrew language can have the same two meanings. Here is an example, in Old Testament Hebrew, where forever only means how long a person will live. If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed; you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD has blessed you with, you shall give to him. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today. And if it happens that he says to you, 'I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. Deuteronomy 15:12-17 Obviously, the person can only be a servant for as long as he or she lives. He or she does not live for eternity. So forever means only his or her life-time. The idea that forever in the Old Testament Bible can be just a limited lifetime of an individual is common. Lets look in the New Testament. Idiomatic PhrasesIn the New Testament, the word "age" is not used by itself, but rather; It is included in an idiomatic expression or a phrase. These phrases are thought to describe an undefined period of time. There are a number of similar phrases found in the New Testament. All of these phrases are usually translated as: "forever". Here are two typical phrases: In Hebrews 5:6 & 6:20 The phrase: eis ton aiona literally means: "unto the age" and in Hebrews 13:8 the pleural phrase: eis tous aionas literally means: "unto the ages"These two phrases, "unto the age" and "unto the ages", are both translated as "forever". Yet, they can either mean "forever", or they can mean, "for as long as the person lives". So, these phrases do not have to express the idea that the time is forever, or an eternity. They can also be understood to mean the life-span of an individual as well. It depends on the context of the word. This is exactly what we found to be the case in the Hebrew example above. Compound Idiomatic PhrasesNow, lets look at Revelation 14:11 and 20:10. Both of the following phrases are usually translated as: "for ever and ever" In Rev. 14:11 the phrase: eis aionas aionon literally means: "unto ages of ages" In Rev. 20:10 the phrase: eis tous aionas ton anionon literally means: "unto the ages of the ages""Unto ages of ages" and "unto the ages of the ages" are really compound expressions. The expression itself means multiplied ages. Some feel that these compound phrases could more emphatically declare the idea of eternity, so the suffering of the wicked would last forever and ever. However, this view would pit Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 against all the other texts of the Bible that speak of the wicked being destroyed. Even within Revelation 20 itself, this punishment of the wicked is called the second death (Revelation 20:6, 14). The death in which there is no return. So, this idea, that the wicked will suffer for ever and ever, does not make sense.
thanks for the lesson did not realize we had a Greek scholar among us.One question, why did you omit in your commentary the 10 other times John uses the phrase you have written "eis tous aionas ton anionon" which is EXACTLY identical with Rev 20:10?And am no Greek scholar, but could not the 14:11 be slightly different because of the grammer in that sentence and NOT because the meaning is to be understood differently?But lets give you 14:11 as it does appear slightly different in the Greek compared to 20:10. How about a Greek lesson on the other ten verses that are IDENTICAL to 20:10 in the Greek for the words in question?see 1.6, 4.9, 4.10, 5.13, 5.14, 7.12, 10.6, 11.15, 15.7, 22.5http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.p...5&version=KJV#5

 

[His By Grace]

Okay, I think I have it now. I had to do some research on my own because I wasn't getting the full picture on this site. Kriss, I did read your reference site. But, I was anxious to know why and who believed the theory you presented saying that the second death had to be complete annihilation rather that a separation from God; a spiritual death or dying. As I read this site it did become more clear why you believe what you believe. It is found at alt. religion.clergy or www.geocities.com ( I had to google in religions that believe in annihilation vs. eternal hell)and it was written by a converted Hindu who's name is Babu G. Ranganathan. It is lengthy, but is a very in-depth, cohesive writing. It is very well explained, taking it step by step. He also gives two other names for evangelists and only one church that accepts this view-John R.W.Stott and Clark H. Pinnock; then there was the 7th Day Adventist Church. It was informative.P.S. Kriss, don't take any of this personal. If anyone is like me, it's hard to swallow something you haven't heard. l always have to verify with lots of sources and then I still have to pray and ask the Lord to reveal the truth to me. I know He will.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(kriss;33894)
DO YOU GUYS WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS OR KEEP POSTING WHAT YOUR OPINIONS ARE THAT MEN HAVE TOLD YOU??It doesnt matter what our opinions are ITS WHAT GOD SAYS THAT MATTERS. Yes there is a condition of hell but it is temporary How dare some of you say that's not enough to stop sinners this is not your call to make! Are you so arrogant in your believe that you think you can dare judge whats in another's heart?? This thread is not about whether or not there is a state of hell there is this thread is about the fact that there is no burning in Hell for eternityTHE BIBLE DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS there is one verse that says this Rev 20:10 Are you guys able to get the fact that that "Forever" in the Greek and the way God uses it means age or ages not eternity DO I NEED TO REMIND YOU THAT THE SCRIPTURE WAS NOT WRITTEN IN ENGLISH IT WAS INTERPTED BY MEN sometimes we need to see what the original word means to understand what GOD says not what men say. You are using one mistranslated verse to base your entire opinion on and ignoring the entire rest of scripture WHAT IS YOUR LOGIC?We are told the second death is the death of your soul ANNIHILATED CEASE TO EXSIST GONE FROM MEMORYTHIS IS GODS WORD ON IT now you can keep your opinions if you so like but it isnt what God says. All souls belong to God He alone will decide what is appropriate.I have given you a link to a study on the second death that explains it and how God uses the terms involved. Did any of you bother to read it?? http://www.christianityboard.com/wha...5.html?p=33786Do many of you care that what you are saying you believe from men is making Gods Word a condradiction therefore implying it lies? For what to prove your own opinons right. You can not have both a second death and a being tortured forever they are CONTRADICTIONS so who is wrong God or your opinions???
I read it and it adds nothing new to my understanding of what you are saying. For me the view of Rev 20:10 that limits "for ever and ever" to only being an age contradicts the 10 other times John uses the EXACT same Greek phrase. Furthermore, where John wants to be understood as talking about a limited age, he uses the same Greek word that gets repeated twice in the phrases were he wanted to express forever. So either John made a mistake in 20:10, or our copy of the Greek for 20:10 is in error, or John was being intentionally misleading about Hell (he lied), or the idea that a person in Hell is there for a limited time is wrong or we must believe Jesus rules for a limited age and we are only to give Him glory for a limited time. There are no other options.To me the only option that makes the most sense is that the idea John is addressing/supporting annihilation in 20:10 is wrong, that he means for ever and ever. Just like he meant Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not just for a limited time. It is not like the same phrase is used to mean both, we are talking about the definition of single Greek word and it's usage. In fact if we look at the exact GREEK phrase, every time, EVERY TIME it is used in the NT none of you would argue it should be understood as a limited age (except for those wanting Rev 20:10 to say that). Jesus also says several times that Hell's fire (in relation to having body parts) will not be quenched. Same place He referst to BODY and SOUL being thrown there.Again, I do not think this topic is really about understanding scripture. Clearly we both can make our claims from scripture. This is about a theology that claims God could not be God, All Loving...etc and allow people to suffer in Hell eternally. So we really should talk about why it (annihilation) is either necessary or not necessary in relation to what we think that implies about God.

 

[SealedEternal]

Another passage that seems to support the fact that the Lake of Fire doesn't consume as much as torture is Mark 9 where Jesus keeps saying that "THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." I'm not sure exactly what He means by that, but it clearly doesn't sound like annihilation and actually sounds like the antithesis. It implies to me that the fire keeps going yet never destroys what it is burning.SealedEternal

 

[Christina]

There is burning and torment but only until the White throne judgement at the End of the age then if so judged you die the second deathnothing in Mark 9 disputes this that I seeJesus just finished telling us that there are many parts of the body of Christ, remember that man that was healing in Jesus name, and the disciples tried to cause him to quit. This one group over there does the work of the feet, while another group does the work of the hand. They are all part of the body of Christ, yet at one point if one of the groups, or one of the members of the body of Christ does something and teaches something that causes one of Jesus Christ little ones to fall, it is better that that part be cut off from the rest of the body.Mark 9:44 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."Remember Hell is "Geenna", the garbage pit outside Jerusalem. The "worm" are "maggots", and they eat dead flesh carcasses that are rotting in the pit, outside the dung-gate. Most of the time, it is your flesh and your flesh nature that causes you to sin. Those that do things in this flesh life, that may cause you to sin, are the ones that you are to cut yourself free from. It doesn't mean that you cut off part of your own body. Your body is a temple of Christ, and of His Spirit, when He dwells within you.Mark 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"If a foot, an other part of the body of Christ tries to drag you into things that His Word teaches against, it is better that you cut yourself free from that group than follow them into Satan's grasp, and end in hell fire.

 

[Faithful]

DO YOU GUYS WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS OR KEEP POSTING WHAT YOUR OPINIONS ARE THAT MEN HAVE TOLD YOU??It doesnt matter what our opinions are ITS WHAT GOD SAYS THAT MATTERS. Yes there is a condition of hell but it is temporary How dare some of you say that's not enough to stop sinners this is not your call to make! Are you so arrogant in your believe that you think you can dare judge whats in another's heart?? This thread is not about whether or not there is a state of hell there is
Are you saying the Spirit cannot teach others what is in another persons heart. Didn't Christ know what others were thinking. And in Acts 5 didn't the Spirit reveal to Peter about Sapphira and Annanias?Todays believers who do not have the Spirit fail to acknowledge his power and ability in a believer to show them the hearts and minds of others.Jesus himself taught that those who believed in him who do what he did and even greater things.All believers who come to Christ are drawn and taught by the Father himself.John 6:44-45. Christ makes it quite plain that those who belong to him will receive the Holy Spirit who will teach them and lead them into all truth.John 16:13 and also in 1 John 2:27. I am not taught of man but have and are being taught of God even today. The teachings about there being no eternal torment is a modern day teaching but truth does not change with the centuries it holds fast in every generation. Psalm 12:5-8.It is from men wrong teachings occur but if you love truth you will find it in the word of God by believing the words he speaks.God said the wages of sin is death. If the death did not entail suffering then they could have just put Christ to death. But he suffered unto death.So the wages of sin is death which entails suffering because God would not of allowed him to suffer if not relevant to salvation.Faithful.

 

[Jordan]

(Faithful;33860)
(thesuperjag;33708)
Everyone... answer this question...If the wicked shall be tormented forever and ever, how can there be a second death?JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Hi Jag,It is quite clear from Revelation 20 that the second death is the Lake of fire.And we see that is where Satan, the beast and false prophet are and are tormented day and night for ever. Spiritual death is seperation from God.There is no longer a physical body because that is changed when Christ returns and what is mortal now becomes immortal. Revelation is not talking about physical death a second time. The judgement of the soul only happens after physical death. And God has the power to cast the soul into hell.But the Lake of Fire is called the second death.Rev 20:10.And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So we see that the second death is not a physical death of flesh but a spiritual death. In that they are seperated from God for ever and ever.faithful.(Faithful;33979)
Are you saying the Spirit cannot teach others what is in another persons heart. Didn't Christ know what others were thinking. And in Acts 5 didn't the Spirit reveal to Peter about Sapphira and Annanias?Todays believers who do not have the Spirit fail to acknowledge his power and ability in a believer to show them the hearts and minds of others.Jesus himself taught that those who believed in him who do what he did and even greater things.All believers who come to Christ are drawn and taught by the Father himself.John 6:44-45. Christ makes it quite plain that those who belong to him will receive the Holy Spirit who will teach them and lead them into all truth.John 16:13 and also in 1 John 2:27. I am not taught of man but have and are being taught of God even today. The teachings about there being no eternal torment is a modern day teaching but truth does not change with the centuries it holds fast in every generation. Psalm 12:5-8.It is from men wrong teachings occur but if you love truth you will find it in the word of God by believing the words he speaks.God said the wages of sin is death. If the death did not entail suffering then they could have just put Christ to death. But he suffered unto death.So the wages of sin is death which entails suffering because God would not of allowed him to suffer if not relevant to salvation.Faithful.
You are confusing things...We have not yet died once since it is obviously we are still typing on the forum. And I never said we can die twice in the flesh body. There is only one death when it comes to the flesh body.We die in the flesh once. (Hebrews 9:27)At the seventh trumpet, Christ will change us from corruption (flesh) to incorruption (spiritual body) (I Corinthians 15:40-54, I Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 11:15)After the Melineum Age, Satan will come back for a little season, to deceive as much as he cam for the newly taught... (Revelation 20:3, Revelation 20:7, Revelation 20:10)Behold the Judgement Day, The White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20:11)The second death, the death of a soul. (Revelation 20:14)Why, we know this cause Satan will die. (Ezekiel 28:18)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[His By Grace]

This is almost becoming humorous to me, even though it's a very serious topic. We just keep saying the same things over and over and over again. It's making me laugh. Someone will post something as if it's a new thought and I get so tickled. Of course, I haven't gotten enough sleep due to my cough, cold, etc. This Louisiana weather is a killer, ooooppps! Bad choice of words!