Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

[Taken]

Obviously too complicated for me!!
I don't 'think' that deeply these days

I am just a simple thinker.

Bless you....H :)

I like to get into the deeper understanding... but then had the time to spend years going step by step.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Harvest 1874]

I never seem to get on well talking to you....but I will give it another try.

Just a thought. But, how do you reckon that if God breathed life...soul into man, that the soul didn't exist before then?
If it came from God...it did.

And how do you reckon it 'ceases to be' after death....when it returns back to God who gave it? The soul/spirit comes from God and returns to God. Who is The Consuming Fire...

Ex 24 17 "And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount..."
Deut 4:24 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire "

Hebrews 12 29
" For our God is a consuming fire."
God obviously do not consume what is "like Him" therefore He consumes what is not like him... With the three Hebrew young men in the fire...all that was consumed were the ropes that bound them.
They walked around in the Fire with One likened to the Son of God.

I can't see how anything 'spiritual' soul or spirit can somehow not exist.

'....H

I’m sorry but might I inquire how long you have been a believer my sister? The reason I ask this is because your understanding of a “soul” and what exactly it consist of can be used as a gauge or measure of your growth and understanding in the doctrines of Christ. The doctrine of the soul is what we would consider a basic or first principle doctrine, part of the “milk of the word”, a basic doctrine, which any true believer if he or she has been a Christian for some time should be well established in.

However from reading many of the comments on this forum not only in regards to this one particular doctrine but likewise in regards to several other basic doctrines it is apparent that most here are not “establish in the truth” (2 Pet 1:12) that many are still being “blown about by every wind of doctrine (teaching upon a particular subject)” Eph 4:14. “Ever learning (seeking), but never able to arrive at the truth.” (2 Tim 3:7)

How do we know this?

Well it’s fairly easy to discern we see it often on this forum, first we see someone posting a statement or replying to a comment stating one position upon a subject and then else where we find them either stating something totally different or they are found “liking” i.e. agreeing with someone else statement, which completely contradicts what they had previous said. This individual is not “established in the truth” and needs to return to a study of the first principle doctrines that they might be properly instructed. Take one doctrine at a time and fully digest it, learn it thoroughly make sure you are settled and established in it before proceeding to the next. Each doctrine (truth) should be in complete harmony with the next, if it is not than something is wrong with our understanding, for God’s word does not contradict itself.

This is the Lord’s chosen method which you would be wise to follow, “For precept [truth] must be upon precept [truth]; "line [of reasoning] upon line [of reasoning]"; here a little, and there a little.” (Isa 28:10)

I think the problem is that many are to eager to “follow the crowd”, they want to be a part of the “accepted group” and as such they are willing to sacrifice their own beliefs, which evidently they are not so sure of so as not to appear as an outsider in opposition with the view being propagated by the majority.

Now some will argue that anyone who claims to be “established in the truth” is being a bit boastful, proud, arrogant, but we disagree. "The difference between the strong and steadfast Christian and a bigot is that the one is established in the truth, while the other is established in error."

Understand that being established in the truth does not mean knowing all truth; it simply means that the truths which you do possess you have become established, learned, settled in them so much so that you can’t be moved by any other wind of doctrine.

We have attempted to explain this issue concerning the soul as clear as possible several times, and even posted a blog post on this site covering this issue, if you haven’t already taken a look please do so that you might become established and settled on this issue once and for all. It’s entitled “What is a Soul”.

"Be no more children tossed about with every wind of doctrine." (Eph 4:14)

 

[amadeus]

I’m sorry but might I inquire how long you have been a believer my sister? The reason I ask this is because your understanding of a “soul” and what exactly it consist of can be used as a gauge or measure of your growth and understanding in the doctrines of Christ. The doctrine of the soul is what we would consider a basic or first principle doctrine, part of the “milk of the word”, a basic doctrine, which any true believer if he or she has been a Christian for some time should be well established in.

It is too bad that you believe only those who understand such things are as you say, "well established". To me it would seem infinitely more important to know the Lord as one we can talk to and trust whether or not we can understand all of the little details of theology which may or may not really be important in God's eyes. Is not Love or Charity more important than the knowledge our brains can gather and from which conclusions can be drawn from our Bible studies?

Should you be insulting people because they do not seem to understand or agree with your position of things or what you consider the most important things. Perhaps it is you who cannot see or understand their connection with God... even though you apparently believe that you can.

However from reading many of the comments on this forum not only in regards to this one particular doctrine but likewise in regards to several other basic doctrines it is apparent that most here are not “establish in the truth” (2 Pet 1:12) that many are still being “blown about by every wind of doctrine (teaching upon a particular subject)” Eph 4:14. “Ever learning (seeking), but never able to arrive at the truth.” (2 Tim 3:7)

Even if you were correct in saying that most here are not established in the truth, is it appropriate for you to presume to point your finger in accusation at a sister who has shown so much love for people? What saith it?

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." I Cor 13:13

Knowledge in not even listed with these three, rather when you read an earlier verse it says:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

We are not all expected by God to be Bible experts, but we are expected to have the charity about which Apostle Paul is writing.

How do we know this?

Well it’s fairly easy to discern we see it often on this forum, first we see someone posting a statement or replying to a comment stating one position upon a subject and then else where we find them either stating something totally different or they are found “liking” i.e. agreeing with someone else statement, which completely contradicts what they had previous said. This individual is not “established in the truth” and needs to return to a study of the first principle doctrines that they might be properly instructed. Take one doctrine at a time and fully digest it, learn it thoroughly make sure you are settled and established in it before proceeding to the next. Each doctrine (truth) should be in complete harmony with the next, if it is not than something is wrong with our understanding, for God’s word does not contradict itself.

The "likes" people post quite often have little or nothing to do with agreeing with what is posted. Sometimes we like the heart of the person as displayed by his spirit or attitude even though the words may express something with which we disagree. We should be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions from those "likes".

As to the best way to come to the "truth" would you not say rather that the best way to come to know the "truth" which Jesus is by immersing yourself in the Holy Spirit and then following the lead of the Holy Spirit in all things? Without the Holy Spirit who can understand what is written in the scriptures? Can an Einstein who leans on his own brain power alone to search for truth surpass an illiterate person who cannot even read the Bible, but who prays without ceasing and rejoices in the Lord always?

This is the Lord’s chosen method which you would be wise to follow, “For precept [truth] must be upon precept [truth]; "line [of reasoning] upon line [of reasoning]"; here a little, and there a little.” (Isa 28:10)

Maybe the best way to proceed is to gradually increase our conversation [prayer] with God "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day as well as increasing our rejoicing in Him "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day. A lot of study even of the scriptures without the leading of the Holy Spirit is what?

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

I think the problem is that many are to eager to “follow the crowd”, they want to be a part of the “accepted group” and as such they are willing to sacrifice their own beliefs, which evidently they are not so sure of so as not to appear as an outsider in opposition with the view being propagated by the majority.

Some people may do as you say, but you should be careful about throwing everyone here or most people here or even any single person from this forum into that pot without knowing each one as God knows each one:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:1-2

Now some will argue that anyone who claims to be “established in the truth” is being a bit boastful, proud, arrogant, but we disagree. "The difference between the strong and steadfast Christian and a bigot is that the one is established in the truth, while the other is established in error."

Understand that being established in the truth does not mean knowing all truth; it simply means that the truths which you do possess you have become established, learned, settled in them so much so that you can’t be moved by any other wind of doctrine.

We have attempted to explain this issue concerning the soul as clear as possible several times, and even posted a blog post on this site covering this issue, if you haven’t already taken a look please do so that you might become established and settled on this issue once and for all. It’s entitled “What is a Soul”.

"Be no more children tossed about with every wind of doctrine." (Eph 4:14)

Again, being established in the truth is, as I see it, being established in Jesus. Study is a good thing, but some people study a lot and still do not have all of the details in mind, but is that really the most important thing to God?

God knows exactly what He gave each one of us. He also knows exactly what each one of us has done and is doing with what we have been given. Do you or I?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

 

[Nancy]

It is too bad that you believe only those who understand such things are as you say, "well established". To me it would seem infinitely more important to know the Lord as one we can talk to and trust whether or not we can understand all of the little details of theology which may or may not really be important in God's eyes. Is not Love or Charity more important than the knowledge our brains can gather and from which conclusions can be drawn from our Bible studies?

Should you be insulting people because they do not seem to understand or agree with your position of things or what you consider the most important things. Perhaps it is you who cannot see or understand their connection with God... even though you apparently believe that you can.


Even if you were correct in saying that most here are not established in the truth, is it appropriate for you to presume to point your finger in accusation at a sister who has shown so much love for people? What saith it?

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." I Cor 13:13

Knowledge in not even listed with these three, rather when you read an earlier verse it says:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

We are not all expected by God to be Bible experts, but we are expected to have the charity about which Apostle Paul is writing.



The "likes" people post quite often have little or nothing to do with agreeing with what is posted. Sometimes we like the heart of the person as displayed by his spirit or attitude even though the words may express something with which we disagree. We should be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions from those "likes".

As to the best way to come to the "truth" would you not say rather that the best way to come to know the "truth" which Jesus is by immersing yourself in the Holy Spirit and then following the lead of the Holy Spirit in all things? Without the Holy Spirit who can understand what is written in the scriptures? Can an Einstein who leans on his own brain power alone to search for truth surpass an illiterate person who cannot even read the Bible, but who prays without ceasing and rejoices in the Lord always?


Maybe the best way to proceed is to gradually increase our conversation [prayer] with God "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day as well as increasing our rejoicing in Him "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day. A lot of study even of the scriptures without the leading of the Holy Spirit is what?

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12



Some people may do as you say, but you should be careful about throwing everyone here or most people here or even any single person from this forum into that pot without knowing each one as God knows each one:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:1-2

Again, being established in the truth is, as I see it, being established in Jesus. Study is a good thing, but some people study a lot and still do not have all of the details in mind, but is that really the most important thing to God?

God knows exactly what He gave each one of us. He also knows exactly what each one of us has done and is doing with what we have been given. Do you or I?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

Good word Amadeus "2 thumbs up". ♥

 

[Harvest 1874]

It is too bad that you believe only those who understand such things are as you say, "well established". To me it would seem infinitely more important to know the Lord as one we can talk to and trust whether or not we can understand all of the little details of theology which may or may not really be important in God's eyes. Is not Love or Charity more important than the knowledge our brains can gather and from which conclusions can be drawn from our Bible studies?

Should you be insulting people because they do not seem to understand or agree with your position of things or what you consider the most important things. Perhaps it is you who cannot see or understand their connection with God... even though you apparently believe that you can.


Even if you were correct in saying that most here are not established in the truth, is it appropriate for you to presume to point your finger in accusation at a sister who has shown so much love for people? What saith it?

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." I Cor 13:13

Knowledge in not even listed with these three, rather when you read an earlier verse it says:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

We are not all expected by God to be Bible experts, but we are expected to have the charity about which Apostle Paul is writing.



The "likes" people post quite often have little or nothing to do with agreeing with what is posted. Sometimes we like the heart of the person as displayed by his spirit or attitude even though the words may express something with which we disagree. We should be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions from those "likes".

As to the best way to come to the "truth" would you not say rather that the best way to come to know the "truth" which Jesus is by immersing yourself in the Holy Spirit and then following the lead of the Holy Spirit in all things? Without the Holy Spirit who can understand what is written in the scriptures? Can an Einstein who leans on his own brain power alone to search for truth surpass an illiterate person who cannot even read the Bible, but who prays without ceasing and rejoices in the Lord always?


Maybe the best way to proceed is to gradually increase our conversation [prayer] with God "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day as well as increasing our rejoicing in Him "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day. A lot of study even of the scriptures without the leading of the Holy Spirit is what?

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12



Some people may do as you say, but you should be careful about throwing everyone here or most people here or even any single person from this forum into that pot without knowing each one as God knows each one:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:1-2

Again, being established in the truth is, as I see it, being established in Jesus. Study is a good thing, but some people study a lot and still do not have all of the details in mind, but is that really the most important thing to God?

God knows exactly what He gave each one of us. He also knows exactly what each one of us has done and is doing with what we have been given. Do you or I?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

I know my brother that you have difficulty in reading posts because of your eyes therefore I will break up my responses into smaller posts. Please allow me first to apologize it was not my intention to pass judgement on any one here, especially on ByGrace, I was only stating the facts as based upon my observations of some of the discourses between various brethren on this site. Having participated in many different Christian forums this is something I see all the time, many being blown about by every wind of doctrine.


You state: It is too bad that you believe only those who understand such things are as you say, "well established".


In Reply, First of all keep in mind what we are discussing here; we’re not talking about the “deep things” of the Word of God, but rather the “basic or first principle doctrines of Christ”


It is not we who say only those who understand such things are well established it is the Word of God that says so. The Apostle Paul makes this abundantly clear in Hebrews Chapter 5 when speaking of some brethren who were not so established.


Verse 12 “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.”


“The Hebrew brethren to whom Paul wrote (like many believers today) had been in the Truth long enough that they ought to have been skilled in the use of the Word, not only established in the first principles themselves, but able to explain and teach them to others.


Paul does not in any sense minimize the importance of the milk of the Word. Indeed, he tells the Hebrew brethren that they needed to have the first principles taught to them again. Because of neglected privileges, neglected opportunities for study and prayer and fellowship, they had not grown in the knowledge of the LORD and of his Truth, and had even lost some of the clear vision of the Truth which, for a while, they had enjoyed.


Real growth in knowledge is possible only when the basic principles of the Truth are kept in mind and used as a foundation upon which to build, but of course this first implies that we are established in those principles having studied the doctrine for ourselves proving all things.


The “first principles” of the Truth referred to by Paul are not necessarily the simple truths of the Divine plan. They are “first” because they are basic, or fundamental, to an understanding of all truth. The Greek word here translated principles conveys the thought of an orderly arrangement, and such are the basic doctrines of the Divine plan when seen in the light of the rightly divided Word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15


The Hebrew brethren had lost their clear vision of the Divine plan, and in order again to become skillful in the use of the Word they needed to begin their studies all over anew. Not only did they need to be taught again concerning the first principles, but it had become necessary that these basic truths be outlined to them in the simplest way possible -- as illustrated by feeding a child with milk. Thus they could properly understand and assimilate the Truth.” Studies in the Book of Hebrews


Verses 13-14 “For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food (the meat of the Word) belongs to those who are of full age (mature Christians, established in the truth), that is, those who by reason of use (study and practice) have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil (are able to rightly divide the Word of God, distinguish between truth and error).”


You state: To me it would seem infinitely more important to know the Lord as one we can talk to and trust whether or not we can understand all of the little details of theology which may or may not really be important in God's eyes. Is not Love or Charity more important than the knowledge our brains can gather and from which conclusions can be drawn from our Bible studies?


In Reply, We are not here speaking about “little details of theology” as you say, but rather the fundamental truths of our faith, prerequisite to the establishment of a sure faith structure without the proper understanding of which we would being found building upon the sure foundation (our faith in Jesus Christ) with the wrong materials, with wood, hay and straw (human traditions and errors, i.e. the precepts and teachings of men) none of which will stand up in the “day of trial” which is shortly coming upon the whole world.(1 Cor 3:12, 13)


And yes love is more important than knowledge, but as the Lord likewise states, “It is not good to have zeal (love) without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way,” (Prov 19:2) something which many professed believers have done.

I will continue shortly with the rest of your comments.

 

[Harvest 1874]

You state: Should you be insulting people because they do not seem to understand or agree with your position of things or what you consider the most important things. Perhaps it is you who cannot see or understand their connection with God... even though you apparently believe that you can.


In Reply, it was never my intention to insult anyone, and if in so doing I apologize, nevertheless we have a responsibility as the Lord’s representatives.


“The Apostle Paul was a plain uncompromising teacher. When he knew he had the truth, he spoke it with confidence, and boldly declared that everything contrary to it was false doctrine; and he taught his disciples that it was not only their privilege, but likewise their duty also, to be established in the faith and to know, on the evidence of God's Word, why they believed, and to be able to give to every man that inquired for it a reason for the hope that was in them.


Unfortunately there is among Christians today a great lack of established faith on any point of doctrine. They say, "I think," "I hope," or "Perhaps it may be so, but this is only my opinion, and it may be right or it may be wrong” or “I have charity, however, for your opposing opinion, and for every man's opinion; for who knows which is right? What is truth? I'm sure I cannot say; but, nevertheless, I have great faith and charity (?)” “Nobody knows”, “I shake hands with everybody and call him brother if he claims to be a Christian, no matter what he believes and teaches. In Christian love I bid them all Godspeed and pray for the success of all their teachings, no matter how antagonistic they may be to each other or to the Scriptures as I read them."


All this passes among Christians generally for large-hearted benevolence and personal humility, while in fact it is an ignoble, a compromising spirit that is unwilling to forego the friendship of those who oppose the Lord by opposing the truth; and which would rather see the truth suffer, and those weak in the faith stumbled, than that they should bear the reproach of Christ.


Sorry but we cannot do that, it is our duty to point out error where we see it, and to help those weak (unlearned) in faith. “You shall speak my words to them, whether they hear or whether they refuse…” Ezek 2:7

You state: Even if you were correct in saying that most here are not established in the truth, is it appropriate for you to presume to point your finger in accusation at a sister who has shown so much love for people?


In Reply, I was not making any accusations as you imply, I was merely pointing out a self-evident fact that our sister lacked a proper understanding of the subject. Would you have me leave her in ignorance an error simply so as not to hurt her feelings? If she is a mature enough Christian she should have no trouble with someone attempting to do her a kindness in helping her to better understand. Is it not written, “All scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction… that the man (or woman) of God may be perfect (thoroughly complete).” 2 Tim 3:17


What about others who were reading the post some who were possibly looking for better clarity upon the subject should we keep silent for the sake of peace and allow these to lose an opportunity to receive the truth?


You state: We are not all expected by God to be Bible experts, but we are expected to have the charity…”


In Reply, God knows we are not all experts in the scriptures this is precisely why he makes us dependent upon one another. Some have more knowledge in one area while others more in another (it depends on what subjects they have made their priorities), regardless of which those who are strong in the faith, those who have a greater understanding are to bear up the weak (those less knowledgeable). Does not love prompt us to aid our brethren when we see the need?

Continued later.

 

[Harvest 1874]

You state: The "likes" people post quite often have little or nothing to do with agreeing with what is posted. Sometimes we like the heart of the person as displayed by his spirit or attitude even though the words may express something with which we disagree. We should be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions from those "likes".


In Reply, exactly, better to not “like” someone’s post regardless of how genuine their attitude may be or whether or not they are a close friend then to give the false impression that you condone that which you know to be contrary to the scriptures. Bear in mind that there may be others who respect your opinion and they might get the wrong idea imagining you approve of what was stated even though you do not.


You state: As to the best way to come to the "truth" would you not say rather that the best way to come to know the "truth" which Jesus is by immersing yourself in the Holy Spirit and then following the lead of the Holy Spirit in all things?


In Reply, the problem with this is that many mistakenly imagine that they are following the leading's of the Holy Spirit when in fact what they are actually following are their “feelings” their “conscience”. If our conscience were a sufficient guide we would have no need of the scriptures, thus the Lord has provided the written testimony that we might look to it for guidance and understanding. The work of the Holy Spirit is not to miraculously put knowledge in our heads, but rather to lead or guide us to the truth by means of the holy scriptures.


You state: Without the Holy Spirit who can understand what is written in the scriptures? Can an Einstein who leans on his own brain power alone to search for truth surpass an illiterate person who cannot even read the Bible, but who prays without ceasing and rejoices in the Lord always?


In Reply, as it is written, the natural man comprehends not the things of the spirit that being said there are many individuals who pray without ceasing and rejoice in what little they know of the Lord, but if they have not been called (“for no man takes this honor unto himself save he who is called by God”, Heb 5:4), they are still but natural men this despite all their professions of faith.


It is unfortunate that the professed church blindly following the teachings of the blind guides continues to teach that a mere professing of faith is all that is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, but alas this is not so there’s more to it. One cannot rely on one or two scriptures which they imagine to teach the Holy Spirit is given to all believers immediately following a profession of faith, but rather should consult the “whole counsel of the word of God” to determine what is necessary.


Think about it for a moment, if all that was necessary was a mere professing of faith in Christ, then that would imply that even the “Tares” are spirit begotten as they too profess faith in Christ even though in truth they are only imitation wheat nominal Christians.


It is unlikely that God would call an individual who was completely illiterate (I’m speaking here of one who has a disability in which it is impossible for them to comprehend the scriptures or for that matter any reading material) such would have no ability to grow both in the graces and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus and thus would not be able to properly run for the prize of the high calling, of course this would in no way exclude them from benefiting from the restitution blessings of the earthly phase of the kingdom.


You state: Maybe the best way to proceed is to gradually increase our conversation [prayer] with God "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day as well as increasing our rejoicing in Him "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day.


In Reply, we by no means would detract from the importance of a good prayer life, seeking the Lord’s guidance and counsel in prayer not only helps to strengthen our dependence and faith in Him in our studies but likewise in all the affairs of life.

Continued with next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

You state: A lot of study even of the scriptures without the leading of the Holy Spirit is what? "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

In Reply, if you are not begotten of the spirit it would benefit you little as your ability to understand would be limited to the natural man’s sphere of reasoning, and as God is spirit so too his word (for the most part).

In contrast if you are begotten how could you study the scriptures without the Holy Spirits leading's? Can one turn the Holy Spirit off while studying God’s word?

Nevertheless to gain proficiency in the Word of God requires commitment, that is, it takes both time and effort to study the truth. Even the wise man realized that study cost something, saying "much study is a weariness of the flesh." (Eccl 12:12) The question presents itself--How weary are we willing to become to know the doctrine, the truth?

You state: Some people may do as you say (“follow the crowd”), but you should be careful about throwing everyone here or most people here or even any single person from this forum into that pot without knowing each one as God knows each one.

In Reply: this was a general statement not directed at any one individual here on this forum, but nevertheless it is still a fact, many are willing to sacrifice their beliefs perhaps not fully but to a certain extent if it allows them to be counted in among the accepted crowd. This is what orthodoxy is all about.

You state: Again, being established in the truth is, as I see it, being established in Jesus. Study is a good thing, but some people study a lot and still do not have all of the details in mind, but is that really the most important thing to God?

In Reply, “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.” Col 2:6, 7

Whoever is continually looking around for something new (blown about by every wind of doctrine) is thus demonstrating the fact that he is not established in the Faith.

May the Lord add his blessings.

 

[bbyrd009]

most here are not established in the truth

imo if you find yourself talking to someone who says they are established in the truth then you better run

i use/abuse Constantine the Sol worshipper a lot, but that does not mean i consider myself superior to him, or that he is condemned or anything. i have never been called upon to keep an empire together personally lol

It is too bad that you believe only those who understand such things are as you say, "well established"

an obvious sign, no offense harvest

 

[bbyrd009]

I was only stating the facts as based upon my observations of some of the discourses between various brethren on this site.

wadr we call those opinions, not facts?

 

[bbyrd009]

Whoever is continually looking around for something new (blown about by every wind of doctrine) is thus demonstrating the fact that he is not established in the Faith.

with the facts again, sheesh. I mean you surely see that that same guy might also be attempting to change his mind and escape religion, i'm on the run but i could easily make the case Scripturally later if you need me to, which i doubt you do. A point here being that you are still asserting your opinions as facts wadr

 

[Harvest 1874]

imo if you find yourself talking to someone who says they are established in the truth then you better run

i use/abuse Constantine the Sol worshipper a lot, but that does not mean i consider myself superior to him, or that he is condemned or anything. i have never been called upon to keep an empire together personally lol
an obvious sign, no offense harvest

We're talking about the first principle doctrines which any true Christian should become "established in" before proceeding on to the "deep things" of the word of God, the "meat".

If you don't believe that one should be established in these basic truths then you need to take it up with the Apostle Paul because he seems to think otherwise.

 

[Harvest 1874]

wadr we call those opinions, not facts?

Sorry but its not an opinion, but indeed a fact when you witness someone state one thing in one post (for example, they say they don't believe in eternal torment as the wages of sin), and then later in another post they contradict what they said (stating they think eternal torment may be a possibility). Which is it, what do they believe?

"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:8)

Such individuals are not establish in the faith, they are still "babes" being blown about by every wind of doctrine on the issue, “always learning (different points of view on the issue) but never able to come (to arrive) at the truth” (Eph 4:14; 2 Tim 3:7)

 

[Phoneman777]

I never seem to get on well talking to you....but I will give it another try.

Just a thought. But, how do you reckon that if God breathed life...soul into man, that the soul didn't exist before then?
If it came from God...it did.

And how do you reckon it 'ceases to be' after death....when it returns back to God who gave it? The soul/spirit comes from God and returns to God. Who is The Consuming Fire...

Ex 24 17 "And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount..."
Deut 4:24 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire "

Hebrews 12 29
" For our God is a consuming fire."
God obviously do not consume what is "like Him" therefore He consumes what is not like him... With the three Hebrew young men in the fire...all that was consumed were the ropes that bound them.
They walked around in the Fire with One likened to the Son of God.

I can't see how anything 'spiritual' soul or spirit can somehow not exist.

'....H

The "Soul" and the "Spirit" are not the same thing.

• "...into Thy hands I comment My Spirit". (At Calvary, Jesus' Spirit went up to God)
• "...His Soul was not left in hell..." (At Calvary, Jesus' Soul went down to the grave)

The man Jesus ceased to exist but the Divine Jesus resurrected Him 3 days later.






The Spirit is the "life giving principle" of God that animates inanimate things. He breathes it into the Body and the combination of the two creates a "Soul". Therefore, the moment the Spirit of God returns to Him, the Soul ceases to exist.

 

[Harvest 1874]

"The man Jesus ceased to exist but the Divine Jesus resurrected Him 3 days later."

Although I agree with your over all thought concerning the soul, the statement above makes no sense at all.

Perhaps you didn't quite state the matter as clearly as you wished.

It was the Father who resurrected our Lord, Jesus didn't resurrect himself, he couldn't he was dead, actually dead.

Understand clearly it was the man Christ Jesus who gave his life as a ransom sacrifice for all, who pour out his soul even unto death. The man Christ Jesus will never be resurrected again, if he was that would mean the taking back of the ransom sacrifice (a perfect man for a perfect man), the results of which would be that we all would once again come under the divine sentence.

Nor was it the man Christ Jesus, whom the Father resurrected, what He resurrected was the "new creature", the new being which was begotten of the Father at the very moment when our Lord first consecrated himself and was baptized at Jordan.

At his resurrection he became the first born of the new creation.

 

[amadeus]

I am not sure God wants me to write what I have tried to write here twice in response to @Harvest 1874 Each time I have lost the whole thing to nothingness. I try to take piece meal each thing to which I reply this time.

 

[amadeus]

I know my brother that you have difficulty in reading posts because of your eyes therefore I will break up my responses into smaller posts. Please allow me first to apologize it was not my intention to pass judgement on any one here, especially on ByGrace, I was only stating the facts as based upon my observations of some of the discourses between various brethren on this site. Having participated in many different Christian forums this is something I see all the time, many being blown about by every wind of doctrine.

Thank you for your consideration. What you call facts I would simply call opinions or beliefs.

 

[amadeus]

You state: It is too bad that you believe only those who understand such things are as you say, "well established".

In Reply, First of all keep in mind what we are discussing here; we’re not talking about the “deep things” of the Word of God, but rather the “basic or first principle doctrines of Christ”

It is not we who say only those who understand such things are well established it is the Word of God that says so. The Apostle Paul makes this abundantly clear in Hebrews Chapter 5 when speaking of some brethren who were not so established.

Verse 12 “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.”

“The Hebrew brethren to whom Paul wrote (like many believers today) had been in the Truth long enough that they ought to have been skilled in the use of the Word, not only established in the first principles themselves, but able to explain and teach them to others.

Paul does not in any sense minimize the importance of the milk of the Word. Indeed, he tells the Hebrew brethren that they needed to have the first principles taught to them again. Because of neglected privileges, neglected opportunities for study and prayer and fellowship, they had not grown in the knowledge of the LORD and of his Truth, and had even lost some of the clear vision of the Truth which, for a while, they had enjoyed.

Real growth in knowledge is possible only when the basic principles of the Truth are kept in mind and used as a foundation upon which to build, but of course this first implies that we are established in those principles having studied the doctrine for ourselves proving all things.

What are these first principles of which you speak. Maybe I overlooked your specific input on this. If anywhere I might look here:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2

Do these six specifics present the milk as opposed to the meat, the meat being encountered when we leave the principles? I have doubts about that. Too detailed to pursue so I will leave it for the moment.

Is the topic as per the OP included in those principles? I have doubts about that as well.

 

[amadeus]

I lost the whole thing again even when proceeding with short bites. Unfortunately my desktop computer quit on me and I am using an unfamiliar laptop. Part of the problem lies there and part of it undoubtedly lies with me. Bear with me and maybe I'll get this done today... LOL

 

[amadeus]

You state: To me it would seem infinitely more important to know the Lord as one we can talk to and trust whether or not we can understand all of the little details of theology which may or may not really be important in God's eyes. Is not Love or Charity more important than the knowledge our brains can gather and from which conclusions can be drawn from our Bible studies?

In Reply, We are not here speaking about “little details of theology” as you say, but rather the fundamental truths of our faith, prerequisite to the establishment of a sure faith structure without the proper understanding of which we would being found building upon the sure foundation (our faith in Jesus Christ) with the wrong materials, with wood, hay and straw (human traditions and errors, i.e. the precepts and teachings of men) none of which will stand up in the “day of trial” which is shortly coming upon the whole world.(1 Cor 3:12, 13)

And yes love is more important than knowledge, but as the Lord likewise states, “It is not good to have zeal (love) without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way,” (Prov 19:2) something which many professed believers have done.

Your effective placement of charity/love below knowledge by using what to me is a poor wording [translation] of that proverb convinces me not. Consider rather these renderings:


"Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth." Prov 19:2 [KJV]

"Also, without knowledge the soul is not good, And the hasty in feet is sinning." Prov 19:2 [Young's Literal Translation]

"Also, without knowledge the soul is not good, and he who hurries with his feet sins." Prov 19:2 [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]

These and many more do not literally or figuratively make your "zeal" into a love subservient to knowledge. This places too much importance on brain power and too little on what God has placed in our hearts. God is love and it is only through this Love, which He is, that anyone can understand any part of His message to man.