Guide To The Post Tribulation

[Naomi25]

Not really. During Jesus' first earthly ministry we see a couple of people who die, not OT saints, and not NT saints. John the Baptist was beheaded. We are not told where he went. Lazarus died and was resurrected. The rich man died, and remained in sheol.

I'm not sure the point of the matter is 'where they go' after death during this particular period. It was IF scripture makes a clear delineation between Church/Saints in the NT, and if anything, including Revelation, gives us leave to suspect there is a departure of one group to single out the other in a particular time frame...ie: "the tribulation".
My point was: if you do a search of the NT you see the term "Saint" appearing in reference to Christians often. You also find the word 'Church' missing from many NT books. Therefore if the argument exists that since the word 'church' is absent from Revelation, so too must the Church be, and thus when we see the word 'Saint' it has to be in reference to a group of people coming to Christ AFTER the Church has been removed, then we also must apply this rule to the other books of the bible to be consistent...which is problematic. It leaves us with the Church popping in and out of the world, and 'tribulation saints' appearing and disappearing. The only logical way around this is for there to be a specific verse or passage informing us that the Church has left and the terms now mean different things. There is no such verse. There is no such passage that would explain how one group of Christians can apply certain promises of God to their lives (I will keep you from the hour of trial, for eg) but another group, who would still claim to be the body of Christ in all ways, would not be able to claim that. They would be, for all intents and purposes...a lower class of Christian.

The book of Revelation indicates this time is just not tribulation. It is the harvest that Jesus Christ taught would happen the next time He came. The resurrection in chapter 20, indicates the gathering of the sheep and wheat, is by death.

I disagree. Revelation 20 clearly tells us that death and Hades are emptied, and those 'within them' are judged. But we see elsewhere equally as clearly that those alive AT Christ's coming are judged. Matt 25:31-46 is a clear example of this. Texts that describe the Rapture of the Church give us the picture of people in Christ being given their new bodies; those both death and alive....the passages addressing those who 'will not sleep' before the coming of the Lord. Some people will NOT taste death before Christ's return...indeed, they will go from this life, to life everlasting.

Those who are beheaded actually die. The people on earth at this time will all die. They do not go to heaven or sheol. The goats and tares are resurrected into damnation, that is Death. At the GWT, Death is emptied directly into the lake of fire. Those humans do not even stand at the GWT.

Rev 20 would seem to say otherwise:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:12–15

This does not say "death and those in it are emptied into the lake of fire". It says Death gives us those in it and ALL were judged by what they had done. IF their name was not found within the book of life, THEN the go into the lake of fire.

The sheep and wheat are resurrected, and reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. They never go to Paradise. The church went to Paradise in the 6th seal. That is the difference between Trumpet and Thunders saints, and the church. The church is sealed in Christ. Those beheaded, and the sheep and wheat are physically resurrected to live on earth for 1000 years, and be on earth in the next reality, the new heavens and earth. The church comes down in the New Jerusalem.

Care to present any verses that back any of that up?

 

[Naomi25]

Putting on immortality for those in Christ Jesus actually does occur when He returns. That is specifically why those of the 1st resurrection are never subject to the "second death".

You may not have read all of my posts, but I too believe that the 'putting of immortality' occurs at his return. I just happen to believe that this event is also after the 'millennium'...as in, the millennium is most likely now, not some future event. Again, if you read my posts above, you'll see why I believe this and the scriptures I feel point to this.

In 1 Cor.15, Apostle Paul used 4 separate Greek words in 1 Corinthians 15:53. It involves 2 separate changes in our condition, not just one.

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

1. our flesh body must put on incorruption - that's the first required change. The body of incorruption Paul taught is the "spiritual body". The body of flesh he taught is the "natural body". The wicked dead will also have this body of incorruption, because that is the type body of the resurrection. But it is still not immortal IF... still subject to the "second death".

2. our "this mortal" (soul) must put on immortality - the "spiritual body" is our outward image, what Paul called the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15:49. It is not our personality or id. Our soul is our person, and it must be made immortal through Faith on Christ Jesus. This happens for all those in Christ Jesus, and is also why they can never be subject to the "second death".

In reality per God's Word, we ALL... are going to be in the "spiritual body" on earth beginning at Christ's 2nd coming.

In 2 Cor.5 Paul showed that already we have that "spiritual body" inside our flesh. When Jesus comes, everyone's flesh is going to be cast off, revealing their spiritual body. That is how we ALL... will appear then. For those who have died, they have already cast off their flesh body with their spiritual body image being how they manifest. So even though the "resurrection of damnation" will also manifest with their heavenly image in that future time when Jesus returns, their mortal souls will still be subject to the "second death" all throughout Christ's 1,000 years reign.

Since the idea of the "first resurrection" includes the ordinal number one, that suggests there will be a 2nd resurrection. The 2nd one isn't about the "resurrection of damnation" though, because the "resurrection of damnation" happens on the day of the Jesus' 2nd coming per John 5:28-29. The 2nd inferred resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years is about another resurrection unto eternal life through Christ like the first one. When the unsaved are judged at the end of the 1,000 years, whoever's name is found in the book of life will be in the 2nd resurrection of life unto Christ.

May I ask a question? When you say "spiritual body" do you mean a truly 'spiritual', as in incorporeal body? Or do you mean spiritual in nature but still having physical properties as needed?

 

[Davy]

You may not have read all of my posts, but I too believe that the 'putting of immortality' occurs at his return. I just happen to believe that this event is also after the 'millennium'...as in, the millennium is most likely now, not some future event. Again, if you read my posts above, you'll see why I believe this and the scriptures I feel point to this.

May I ask a question? When you say "spiritual body" do you mean a truly 'spiritual', as in incorporeal body? Or do you mean spiritual in nature but still having physical properties as needed?

There is absolutely no way I could ever agree that Christ's Millennium reign is right now. That idea goes completely against the written order of events in God's Word. The events written in Rev.20 about the 1,000 years reign by Christ does not stand alone as a chapter. There are other Bible Books of Scripture that also support that time being after His 2nd coming. And the seminary label of 'Futurism' has nothing to do with the post-tribulationalist who also sees Christ's Millennium reign beginning at His return and gathering of His Church.

In Matthew 22:30, our Lord Jesus said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven". So what kind of body do you think they have?

 

[Davy]

I'm not sure the point of the matter is 'where they go' after death during this particular period. It was IF scripture makes a clear delineation between Church/Saints in the NT, and if anything, including Revelation, gives us leave to suspect there is a departure of one group to single out the other in a particular time frame...ie: "the tribulation".

Since you referred me to your post here...

I disagree with 'any' attempt to separate a NT 'saint' from Christ's Church just because of such a label. To prove such an idea, NT Scripture context must prove it. But there is no NT Scripture context that a 'saint' is someone other than a member of Christ's Church.

 

[Naomi25]

There is absolutely no way I could ever agree that Christ's Millennium reign is right now. That idea goes completely against the written order of events in God's Word. The events written in Rev.20 about the 1,000 years reign by Christ does not stand alone as a chapter. There are other Bible Books of Scripture that also support that time being after His 2nd coming. And the seminary label of 'Futurism' has nothing to do with the post-tribulationalist who also sees Christ's Millennium reign beginning at His return and gathering of His Church.

There is SOMETHING now.


..that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. -Ephesians 1:20–21

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

If Jesus tells us very clearly that the Kingdom is not of THIS world, that it comes not in a way that can be observed, but is 'in the midst of you'...Christians. If Paul tells us that Christ is even now, ruling and reigning above all powers and authorities, and then also tells us that AT his coming he will defeat the LAST enemy; death...at which point he hands over the Kingdom to his Father....
What would you like to call what is happening now?
You may dismiss it as "the Millennium", which is fine, I suppose, it is never labelled as such. But I ask you this: when reading scripture can you actually FIND a space of time allowed for in-between 'this age' and 'the age to come'? Truly, if you do a search you find references to 'this age'....things temporal, sinful, fallen. And references to 'the age to come' where things are eternal, perfect, righteous. For there to BE an in-between 'age' where things will be 'not as bad as now but not as perfect as they will be', you have to start reading into scripture things that are not there.
Added to the fact that the references to 'the 1000 years' are found in a highly symbolic book where numbers are most often used in a symbolic way, then I just don't think a future, literal, earthly reign where 'immortal perfect people' and 'mortal fallen people' will live side by side and then eventually rebel when Christ himself rules the world. I don't see that in scripture.

In Matthew 22:30, our Lord Jesus said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven". So what kind of body do you think they have?

Well, I think that Christ was answering a pretty specific question there...a question about procreation. Which doesn't come into the equation for angelic beings, and apparently won't for us then either. That doesn't necessarily mean we won't have corporeal bodies. The bible speaks of a 'new earth'...the present one is very physical, and God made man to be physical in the first one before the fall. The bible also speaks of the sort of rewards we'll have in eternity; and they seem to be task oriented; we'll work, and work happily. Mankind is meant to have both spirit and body. And I believe Jesus' resurrected body shows us that.

 

[Naomi25]

Since you referred me to your post here...

I disagree with 'any' attempt to separate a NT 'saint' from Christ's Church just because of such a label. To prove such an idea, NT Scripture context must prove it. But there is no NT Scripture context that a 'saint' is someone other than a member of Christ's Church.

Ah.....I did? Sorry, there was no conscious reference to you...
But yes, I agree...'Saint' means 'Saint'...member of Christ's body. People who try and make it something else in Revelation must provide evidence that I think isn't there to prove it means something else.

 

[farouk]

There is SOMETHING now.


..that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. -Ephesians 1:20–21

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

If Jesus tells us very clearly that the Kingdom is not of THIS world, that it comes not in a way that can be observed, but is 'in the midst of you'...Christians. If Paul tells us that Christ is even now, ruling and reigning above all powers and authorities, and then also tells us that AT his coming he will defeat the LAST enemy; death...at which point he hands over the Kingdom to his Father....
What would you like to call what is happening now?
You may dismiss it as "the Millennium", which is fine, I suppose, it is never labelled as such. But I ask you this: when reading scripture can you actually FIND a space of time allowed for in-between 'this age' and 'the age to come'? Truly, if you do a search you find references to 'this age'....things temporal, sinful, fallen. And references to 'the age to come' where things are eternal, perfect, righteous. For there to BE an in-between 'age' where things will be 'not as bad as now but not as perfect as they will be', you have to start reading into scripture things that are not there.
Added to the fact that the references to 'the 1000 years' are found in a highly symbolic book where numbers are most often used in a symbolic way, then I just don't think a future, literal, earthly reign where 'immortal perfect people' and 'mortal fallen people' will live side by side and then eventually rebel when Christ himself rules the world. I don't see that in scripture.



Well, I think that Christ was answering a pretty specific question there...a question about procreation. Which doesn't come into the equation for angelic beings, and apparently won't for us then either. That doesn't necessarily mean we won't have corporeal bodies. The bible speaks of a 'new earth'...the present one is very physical, and God made man to be physical in the first one before the fall. The bible also speaks of the sort of rewards we'll have in eternity; and they seem to be task oriented; we'll work, and work happily. Mankind is meant to have both spirit and body. And I believe Jesus' resurrected body shows us that.

Great verses quoted there, @Naomi25 ...

 

[Davy]

There is SOMETHING now.


..that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. -Ephesians 1:20–21

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

If Jesus tells us very clearly that the Kingdom is not of THIS world, that it comes not in a way that can be observed, but is 'in the midst of you'...Christians. If Paul tells us that Christ is even now, ruling and reigning above all powers and authorities, and then also tells us that AT his coming he will defeat the LAST enemy; death...at which point he hands over the Kingdom to his Father....
What would you like to call what is happening now?

Nah, Jesus never claimed that He stays in Heaven on the right hand of The Father. His 2nd coming is declared to be back to this earth how He ascended to The Father (Acts 1; Zechariah 14). So when He said His kingdom is not of this world, the meaning is that it is not of this PRESENT world time or order. Revelation 19 shows He is going to return, with His army from Heaven, to fight, and in several Scriptures is declared He will reign with His elect, on the earth, over all nations with the "rod of iron" promised Him by The Father (Psalms 2). He returns to Jerusalem literally, to the Mount of Olives where He ascended from, per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. So to push now being His Millennial reign is to scrap a lot... of Bible Scripture about His future reign on this earth with His elect in Jerusalem.

So no amount of twisting my words, nor Bible Scripture, is going to work. It will only be obvious that you are following a falsehood dreamed up by men, and most likely by Christ's enemies.

 

[Naomi25]

Nah, Jesus never claimed that He stays in Heaven on the right hand of The Father. His 2nd coming is declared to be back to this earth how He ascended to The Father (Acts 1; Zechariah 14).

I never said that Christ 'would stay by the Father's side and not come back'. And the fact that he does come back does not relegate the idea of him ruling now, especially since we have bible verses that tell us that he is indeed doing that very thing.

So when He said His kingdom is not of this world, the meaning is that it is not of this PRESENT world time or order.

Except, that's not what it says, is it? If the Kingdom is not of this "PRESENT world order or time", then how do you explain this verse:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

If we are told that Christ is ruling now, that his kingdom is not 'of this world', that it 'cannot be observed', and yet must be present now because "it's in the midst of us"....then one must conclude that it is a present reality, not something future.

Revelation 19 shows He is going to return, with His army from Heaven, to fight, and in several Scriptures is declared He will reign with His elect, on the earth, over all nations with the "rod of iron" promised Him by The Father (Psalms 2). He returns to Jerusalem literally, to the Mount of Olives where He ascended from, per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. So to push now being His Millennial reign is to scrap a lot... of Bible Scripture about His future reign on this earth with His elect in Jerusalem.

Who's scrapping what? Why can't Christ return to a renewed 'heaven and earth', specifically to Jerusalem, to rule there forever over his people. Nothing in "Millennium now" disregards the future possibility of that.

So no amount of twisting my words, nor Bible Scripture, is going to work. It will only be obvious that you are following a falsehood dreamed up by men, and most likely by Christ's enemies.

I have no interest in twisting your words, or the bibles words. I honestly seek God's truth, as all should do. But in all my years studying this, I have yet to come across a single argument that stood under its own weight in regards to a future literal millennium. People get cranky and throw verses around, but they are verses un-tethered to the preponderance of other verses that speak against them in this subject.
If you want to accuse me of following 'men's doctrines', then you must also do me the favour of sincerely answering these questions:
Why does the bible clearly speak of Christ reigning over a kingdom right now?
Why is this Kingdom spoken of as a Kingdom not of this earth and not one we can see, but still 'in the midst' of us (present)?
Why does the bible speak of this Kingdom being finished and 'handed over to the Father' AT Christ's return?
Where are the verses showing a future time when immortal people and mortal people will dwell together under Christ's reign?
Where are the verses describing a specific 'age' that allows things to be almost perfect, but sin will still persist, even though Christ will be back?
Where are the verses that tell us ANYONE will make it through Christ's return without being judged and therefore moved into their 'eternal' thereafter...eternal judgement or eternal righteousness?

 

[farouk]

Ah.....I did? Sorry, there was no conscious reference to you...
But yes, I agree...'Saint' means 'Saint'...member of Christ's body. People who try and make it something else in Revelation must provide evidence that I think isn't there to prove it means something else.

Sometimes all the he said/she said in the dialogues can make some ppl think that a post refers to them, whereas it doesn't...

 

[Naomi25]

Sometimes all the he said/she said in the dialogues can make some ppl think that a post refers to them, whereas it doesn't...

Lol! Yes, it can get tricky. Especially if they come in halfway through a conversation...or if you're trying to follow the logic from their side of things...in other words, you're actually trying to point out that how they see things doesn't add up, but you do it by following the same line of thinking they do....that could be VERY confusing!

 

[farouk]

Lol! Yes, it can get tricky. Especially if they come in halfway through a conversation...or if you're trying to follow the logic from their side of things...in other words, you're actually trying to point out that how they see things doesn't add up, but you do it by following the same line of thinking they do....that could be VERY confusing!

@Naomi25 Imagine an Australian, an American and a Canadian going back and forth: he said/she said; imagine the different accents, the different ways of coming to (jumping to?) conclusions....

A rich mix there... :)

 

[Davy]

I never said that Christ 'would stay by the Father's side and not come back'. And the fact that he does come back does not relegate the idea of him ruling now, especially since we have bible verses that tell us that he is indeed doing that very thing.

The reign here today you're talking about though is regarding His Church, not over Satan's kingdom which is still manifest here on earth.

Luke 4:5-7
5 And the devil, taking Him up into an high mountain, shewed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto Him, 'All this power will I give Thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.'
7 If Thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be Thine.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus does not take over 'direct' control of all kingdoms on earth until the 7th Trumpet sounds, which has not happened yet:

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.'
KJV


What you don't seem to understand is that our Heavenly Father is using Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. He is allowing Satan to work. In Isaiah 10 God kind of revealed this, using the title of "the Assyrian" as a symbol for Satan, revealing how he is God's "rod of Mine anger". God reveals that when He is finished He will destroy him.

So for this present time, until our Lord Jesus literally returns back to this earth, God has given Satan power over the kingdoms of this present world, just as Satan revealed there in Luke 4 when tempting our Lord Jesus.

Many brethren think the John 12:31 Scripture about Satan being 'cast out' was about Christ's death on the cross causing Satan's defeat and even that Satan was then locked in the pit. Jesus did defeat Satan and death on the cross, but Satan still has work on earth to do which God has ordained, as that cast out idea is actually about the future Revelation 12:7-9 event that's to happen at the end of this world when Satan with his angels are cast out of Heaven down to earth, in OUR dimension. Satan is who the coming Antichrist will be, in Jerusalem, playing Messiah.

 

[Davy]

Except, that's not what it says, is it? If the Kingdom is not of this "PRESENT world order or time", then how do you explain this verse:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

The verse in question is John 18:36 when our Lord Jesus was speaking with Pilate. Pilate asked Him if He were King of the Jews...

John 18:33-36
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto Him, "Art thou the King of the Jews?"
34 Jesus answered him, "Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of Me?"
35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered Thee unto me: what hast Thou done?"
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

And the idea I explained is... the meaning of that passage. How do I know for sure? Because our Lord Jesus showed in His Revelation that at His 2nd coming, He and His army are coming to fight (Rev.11; Rev.19; Zech.14). And that is when He is going to subdue all nations and peoples, literally.

Even the Old Testament prophet Zechariah prophesied of Christ's two different advents, the first one meek as a lamb, but the second one to literally reign as King over all nations, and not just over His Church.

1st Coming:
Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

2nd Coming (still future):
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

So when speaking of Christ's Kingdom, it does involve reigning over ALL nations and peoples on earth, and that has yet to happen, as He gave in His Word the time when that will occur, which is at His LITERAL return.

You do believe Christ's 2nd coming will be a literal, bodily return to this earth, don't you?

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not sure the point of the matter is 'where they go' after death during this particular period. It was IF scripture makes a clear delineation between Church/Saints in the NT, and if anything, including Revelation, gives us leave to suspect there is a departure of one group to single out the other in a particular time frame...ie: "the tribulation".
My point was: if you do a search of the NT you see the term "Saint" appearing in reference to Christians often. You also find the word 'Church' missing from many NT books. Therefore if the argument exists that since the word 'church' is absent from Revelation, so too must the Church be, and thus when we see the word 'Saint' it has to be in reference to a group of people coming to Christ AFTER the Church has been removed, then we also must apply this rule to the other books of the bible to be consistent...which is problematic. It leaves us with the Church popping in and out of the world, and 'tribulation saints' appearing and disappearing. The only logical way around this is for there to be a specific verse or passage informing us that the Church has left and the terms now mean different things. There is no such verse. There is no such passage that would explain how one group of Christians can apply certain promises of God to their lives (I will keep you from the hour of trial, for eg) but another group, who would still claim to be the body of Christ in all ways, would not be able to claim that. They would be, for all intents and purposes...a lower class of Christian.



I disagree. Revelation 20 clearly tells us that death and Hades are emptied, and those 'within them' are judged. But we see elsewhere equally as clearly that those alive AT Christ's coming are judged. Matt 25:31-46 is a clear example of this. Texts that describe the Rapture of the Church give us the picture of people in Christ being given their new bodies; those both death and alive....the passages addressing those who 'will not sleep' before the coming of the Lord. Some people will NOT taste death before Christ's return...indeed, they will go from this life, to life everlasting.



Rev 20 would seem to say otherwise:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:12–15

This does not say "death and those in it are emptied into the lake of fire". It says Death gives us those in it and ALL were judged by what they had done. IF their name was not found within the book of life, THEN the go into the lake of fire.

Care to present any verses that back any of that up?

What is the point of trying to literally use different titles to those in Christ? The book of Revelation was placed in the Bible. But the context is for today only. It is what will soon happen. Trying to make the chapters fill in past history will not work. Jesus Second Coming is going to mirror the ministry of the first coming. Jesus will finish what he started in the first century. Then there will be a literal reign on earth. Viewing Revelation in any other context than today and the next 1000+ years is over thinking the NT until it no longer makes any sense.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Imagine an Australian, an American and a Canadian going back and forth: he said/she said; imagine the different accents, the different ways of coming to (jumping to?) conclusions....

A rich mix there... :)

Toss in a Kiwi and it would make for a pretty interesting conversation!

 

[Naomi25]

The reign here today you're talking about though is regarding His Church, not over Satan's kingdom which is still manifest here on earth.

Luke 4:5-7
5 And the devil, taking Him up into an high mountain, shewed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto Him, 'All this power will I give Thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.'
7 If Thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be Thine.
KJV

Absolutely Christ reigns over and through his church. But...that's not all, according to scripture.


..that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. -Ephesians 1:20–23

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22

and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. -Colossians 2:10

These verses tell us that Christ...right now, is above ALL rule, authority and power. He is not just head over the Church.

You quote Luke 4 above, the temptation of Jesus, where Satan offers him the kingdoms of the world, which are his. But this is before the cross, where Satan is dealt a decisive defeat and the gospel goes forth throughout the world to set people free. It is before Christ's ascension, where he 'sits down at the right hand of the Father, above ALL rule, authority and power'.
To understand ALL these verses with equal weight and clarity, we need to understand that earth may have been solely Satan's before the cross, but after it, Christ is the one ruling and Satan is lashing out in death pangs, because he knows his time is short.

Our Lord Jesus does not take over 'direct' control of all kingdoms on earth until the 7th Trumpet sounds, which has not happened yet:

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.'
KJV

Again, by taking this view, you essentially have to cut the verses I quoted to you above out of the bible.
What then, does it mean when we read Revelation 11:15?
I submit you look to the Lord's prayer. Especially the part that says "your kingdom come...your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".
As Christians we long for the time when we see just that: Christ's Kingdom being displayed on earth just as it is in heaven; a place where there is no sin or rebellion. No death, tears or loss. Just perfect peace as we dwell in the presence of our King.
That, however, is not 'the millennium'. That, is a picture of eternity, when this world has been made new and it IS a picture of heaven....God dwells among us, there is no sin or death, and everyone does his will.
You might say "that's still putting 'the Kingdom' in the future, not now", but the theological premise of "already/not yet" is clearly understood by most. At Christ's victory on the cross Satan was defeated absolutely...but he awaits a final moment where he will be thrown into the lake of fire. We receive our salvation with assurance when we place our faith in him...but we await a moment when our resurrection will see justification become glorification. Jesus clearly preached that his Kingdom had come, that it was among us...but that we must wait to see it's final glory.
Christ's kingdom is one that is everlasting, will never end; and like a mustard seed, it started small; 12 Disciples, and it grew throughout a faithful movement of believers, shepherded under a risen, living King, and one day it will become a vast, world wide Kingdom, when he returns. But when he does return, the bible is clear in painting a picture of eternity, not a 'millennium'.

What you don't seem to understand is that our Heavenly Father is using Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. He is allowing Satan to work. In Isaiah 10 God kind of revealed this, using the title of "the Assyrian" as a symbol for Satan, revealing how he is God's "rod of Mine anger". God reveals that when He is finished He will destroy him.

So for this present time, until our Lord Jesus literally returns back to this earth, God has given Satan power over the kingdoms of this present world, just as Satan revealed there in Luke 4 when tempting our Lord Jesus.

Many brethren think the John 12:31 Scripture about Satan being 'cast out' was about Christ's death on the cross causing Satan's defeat and even that Satan was then locked in the pit. Jesus did defeat Satan and death on the cross, but Satan still has work on earth to do which God has ordained, as that cast out idea is actually about the future Revelation 12:7-9 event that's to happen at the end of this world when Satan with his angels are cast out of Heaven down to earth, in OUR dimension. Satan is who the coming Antichrist will be, in Jerusalem, playing Messiah.

I have no doubt that God can use anything or anyone to achieve his purposes, but I'm not sure I see what you're suggesting in scripture. And I can't see how you can have it both ways: is Satan lord over this earth, or is God, in Christ using him to complete his purposes? Because if God is, then undoubtedly, Christ is Lord of this earth, bending Satan to his will.
And given all the verses that speak of Christ ruling over ALL powers and authorities NOW, then I'm not sure how you shimmie around the fact that that must also encompass Satan in some part.

 

[Naomi25]

The verse in question is John 18:36 when our Lord Jesus was speaking with Pilate. Pilate asked Him if He were King of the Jews...

John 18:33-36
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto Him, "Art thou the King of the Jews?"
34 Jesus answered him, "Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of Me?"
35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered Thee unto me: what hast Thou done?"
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

And the idea I explained is... the meaning of that passage. How do I know for sure? Because our Lord Jesus showed in His Revelation that at His 2nd coming, He and His army are coming to fight (Rev.11; Rev.19; Zech.14). And that is when He is going to subdue all nations and peoples, literally.

You claim that John 18:33-36 is proof that Christ's Kingdom is of a future time and order, but I disagree. The Jews had a misconception about what their coming Messiah would do, and bring. They had the expectation that he would sweep in and lead a movement that would defeat Israels enemies (Rome) and set up a triumphant earthly kingdom right there and then. We see throughout the gospels that the Disciples had this expectation....even asking him at his ascension if NOW he would restore the Kingdom to them. Jesus had spent his ministry trying to communicate, mostly in parables, that 'his Kingdom was not of this world', that it 'was not coming in a way that could be observed', but was still 'in the midst of them'. That it would start small, like a seed or leaven, but would grow until his return and was a prize of highest worth. He told them again and again he was not the conquering Messiah, not this time, he was the suffering servant, and that the kingdom would be won through grace and faith, through serving.
And we see that once the Spirit descended at Pentecost, the Disciples finally got it. They stopped pushing for an earthly Kingdom and started working towards growing that seed; giving even their lives to pursue it.

So, do I believe that Revelation teaches a time when Christ will return to subdue the nations and usher in eternity and perfect rule? Absolutely. But I cannot ignore the overarching theme of scripture that paints an 'already/not yet' picture of the Kingdom of God that makes it a very present and current reality too. I cannot ignore Christ's own words that support it, or Paul's either. The Kingdom, like us, is waiting for it's perfect fulfillment, but it's there and it's growing, under it's King who sits at God's right hand.

Even the Old Testament prophet Zechariah prophesied of Christ's two different advents, the first one meek as a lamb, but the second one to literally reign as King over all nations, and not just over His Church.

1st Coming:
Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

2nd Coming (still future):
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

So when speaking of Christ's Kingdom, it does involve reigning over ALL nations and peoples on earth, and that has yet to happen, as He gave in His Word the time when that will occur, which is at His LITERAL return.

You do believe Christ's 2nd coming will be a literal, bodily return to this earth, don't you?

Of course, but I cannot ignore the verses that tell me the Kingdom of God is among us and that Christ is ruling over ALL powers and authorities now.
Having the Millennium Kingdom a present reality now, in an 'already/not yet' way, in no way discounts Christ's triumphant return. Indeed, I look forward to it every day.

 

[Naomi25]

What is the point of trying to literally use different titles to those in Christ? The book of Revelation was placed in the Bible. But the context is for today only. It is what will soon happen. Trying to make the chapters fill in past history will not work. Jesus Second Coming is going to mirror the ministry of the first coming. Jesus will finish what he started in the first century. Then there will be a literal reign on earth. Viewing Revelation in any other context than today and the next 1000+ years is over thinking the NT until it no longer makes any sense.

"The context is for today only?" I'm sorry, but that is simply inaccurate. The idea that Jesus had John write down several letters for Churches that existed at the time, then followed those with a book that gave a great deal of encouragement to 'saints' (people belonging to Christ) struggling under persecution...as they were in those days under Roman persecution...is just nonsensical. Revelation must be read with the understanding that it is relevant to the audience it was written to, and to every Christian afterwards struggling with persecution. Is it particularly relevant for those in the last of the last days? I'm sure it is, but placing it's context strictly for today is a huge theological mistake.
And, once again, you seem to completely miss the point I was trying to make: I'm NOT trying to use different titles for those in Christ, not ones that the bible doesn't already clearly use. Its those people who point to these clearly used titles in scripture and try and put them in different boxes without any kind of scriptural backing for those categories that I object to.
For example: They say that the "Church" has to be raptured out of the world before the Tribulation, because you can't find the word "Church" in Revelation...or after Chapter 4 anyway. The problem with that logic is, you also can't find the word "Church" in may of the other NT books either. Does that mean the Church doesn't exist on the earth in them as well? Then they say that since the 'Church' is gone in Revelation, when you see the word "Saint", it must mean people who come to faith in Christ AFTER the Church is gone: hence, 'tribulation saint'. The problem, again, is that the term "Saint" is used all throughout the NT. Does that then mean that these 'saints' are people apart from the Church?
The answer is, of course not! They're picking and choose and categorizing just to fit a doctrine they already want to believe: the Rapture of the Church BEFORE the bad stuff. But the simple fact is, there are NO verses supporting the sectioning off of different categories of 'church' and 'Saint'. Therefore there is NO logical or rational reason to suppose they are any different at all. The 'Saints' we see in Revelation, are just members of the body of Christ: people of the Church.

 

[Keraz]

"The context is for today only?" I'm sorry, but that is simply inaccurate. The idea that Jesus had John write down several letters for Churches that existed at the time, then followed those with a book that gave a great deal of encouragement to 'saints' (people belonging to Christ) struggling under persecution...as they were in those days under Roman persecution...is just nonsensical. Revelation must be read with the understanding that it is relevant to the audience it was written to, and to every Christian afterwards struggling with persecution. Is it particularly relevant for those in the last of the last days? I'm sure it is, but placing it's context strictly for today is a huge theological mistake.

'Theology' and all the unbiblical doctrines and theories, are soon to be dumped into the garbage can.
Your idea that Revelation is a Book of encouragement to those under persecution, is very hard to swallow, I reject it; on the grounds that far from encouragement, it describes terrors and final Judgment.

But we Christians do have the Lord's promises of protection thru it all; PROVIDED we stand firm in our faith and trust Him to keep us safe. Those who do, will be taken to a place of safety on earth, during the 1260 days of the Great Trib. Revelation 12:14