graven image?

[Rollo Tamasi]

Talk about duplicity in Mary worship.....

I can't believe you didn't listen to this and appreciate it and worship Mary as you listened.
Instead, all you do is criticize.
What a disgrace.

 

[aspen]

Perhaps it was your introduction to the song, Rollo..... didn’t someone teach you manners as a boy?

Btw

You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Perhaps it was your introduction to the song, Rollo..... didn’t someone teach you manners as a boy?

Btw

You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want

that's a song I don't know
I've never followed top 40 Christian music

How about some award winning Gospel music?

 

[aspen]

Nice song. What about the fact that the Rosary is meditating on the birth, ministry, death of Jesus and the perfection of humanity through Jesus?

Oh and asking for prayer?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Nice song. What about the fact that the Rosary is meditating on the birth, ministry, death of Jesus and the perfection of humanity through Jesus?

Oh and asking for prayer?

and how many catholics in the world could answer that as you just have?

 

[aspen]

and how many catholics in the world could answer that as you just have?

‘Yes, aspen you’re right about the rosary’

Perhaps as many Protestants who understand salvation?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

oh holy father, please take the curse off of them
only you can do it

 

[DPMartin]

You anti-Catholics get real boring with your worn out slaughter mantra; it's always asserted but never proven. Now we are guilty of killing our own children. I am not talking about Adam and Eve. This is from that blinding link that you refused to read:

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).​

But you don't get it, you automatically reject a truthful statement based on its source, and not on it's own merits. It's called prejudice.

you are the one who sees things like this anti-catholic (from OP) "Catholic church used paintings and images to convey a message to a people that most likely could read or write." therefore the problem is on you.

 

[epostle1]

Scripture does not condemn the use of images to aid in worshiping God, as some Christian communities suppose. On the contrary, the Old Testament is full of examples of God giving the Israelites permission to do just that, as in the pillars of cloud and fire and Ark of the Covenant, both pictured here in Benjamin West’s 19th century work.

Sometimes we miss things in the Bible, though they are right in front of us. Some of our Protestant brethren (mainly Calvinists, but some other denominations as well) have an almost obsessive fear of any image associated with worship at all, thinking that all such manifestations are examples of idolatry and undue exaltation of a “graven image.”

In other words, all images whatsoever are collapsed in this wrongheaded mentality into the category of the “graven image, forbidden in the Ten Commandments.” But the Bible doesn’t take this view at all. Here is one striking example:

Exodus 33:8-10 (RSV): “Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose up, and every man stood at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he had gone into the tent. When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the door of the tent, and the LORD would speak with Moses. And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the door of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, every man at his tent door.”

Note that the pillar of cloud is:

1.) a creation (water, if a literal cloud);

2.) visual, hence an image; and

3.) thought to directly represent God Himself.

It’s also a supernatural manifestation, which is a major difference compared to any true idol made by the hands of men; but that would make no difference for those who mistakenly hold that any image whatsoever associated with God is impermissible.

The Bible mentions a pillar of cloud and also a pillar of fire (by night), representing God (see: Ex 13:21-22; 14:24; Num 14:14; Neh 9:12, 19). It doesn’t always state that the people worshiped God through the supernatural image-pillars, but we know from Exodus 33:8-10 that it was entirely permissible to do so; certainly not “idolatry.”

The problem (for certain Christians who don’t like images) comes when God Himself expressly sanctions such images, and worship in conjunction with them, as here. The same iconoclasts (opposers of images) have to explain away things like the burning bush (Ex 3:2-6), which is not only fire, but also called an “angel of the Lord” (Ex 3:2), yet also “God” (3:4, 6, 11, 13-16, 18; 4:5, 7-8) and “the LORD” (3:7, 16, 18; 4:2, 4-6, 10-11, 14) interchangeably.

An angel is a creation (as are fire and cloud); yet God chose to use a created being and inanimate objects to visibly represent Him. Several similar instances occur in the Old Testament. Moreover, the Jews “worshiped” fire as representative of God in the following passage:

2 Chronicles 7:1-4: “When Solomon had ended his prayer, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. And the priests could not enter the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD filled the LORD’s house. When all the children of Israel upon the temple, they bowed down with their faces to the earth on the pavement, and worshiped and gave thanks to the LORD, saying, ‘For he is good, for his steadfast love endures for ever.’ Then the king and all the people offered sacrifice before the LORD.”

A related argument, not quite as explicit or direct, but still highly relevant, can be made from the use of images in worship that are very closely tied to God, such as the tabernacle, temple, and ark of the covenant. The Bible teaches that Jewish worship was often directed toward these holy and sacred objects; therefore, in a large sense, they represented God Himself.

We know that God made Himself specially present in or near all these material objects. He states repeatedly that He is present above the “mercy seat” on the ark of the covenant, between the two carved cherubim (Ex 25:22; 30:6; Lev 16:2; Num 7:89; 1 Sam 4:4; 2 Sam 6:2; 2 Kg 19:15; 1 Chr 13:6; Ps 80:1; 99:1; Is 37:16; Ezek 10:4; Heb 9:5).

Therefore, we are informed that the Jews would bow before the ark to pray or worship:

Joshua 7:6: “Then Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the evening …” [proceeds to pray in 7:7-8]

1 Chronicles 16:4:“Moreover he appointed certain of the Levites as ministers before the ark of the LORD, to invoke, to thank, and to praise the LORD, the God of Israel.”

The Jews prayed “toward” Jerusalem and the temple there (more images representing Him or His presence):

1 Kings 8:44: “… they pray to the LORD toward the city which thou hast chosen and the house which I have built for thy name.”

Psalm 5:7: “But I through the abundance of thy steadfast love will enter thy house, I will worship toward thy holy temple in the fear of thee.”

Psalm 138:2: “I bow down toward thy holy temple and give thanks to thy name for thy steadfast love and thy faithfulness; …”

The temple had all sorts of images in it: giving the lie to the notion that houses of worship couldn’t possibly have any images. It had “carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers” (1 Kg 6:29). From whence comes this notion, then, of bare white-walled churches? Not from Scripture!

Some of the early Calvinists were so fanatical that they smashed not only statues of saints, but also organs, stained glass, even statues of Jesus Christ and crucifixes. They ignored all the distinctions that the Bible plainly makes. We reject such clear biblical teaching at our peril. Iconoclasm (opposition to images) is a false tradition of men that was officially condemned by the Church long ago. Catholic Eucharistic worship and devotion hearkens back to this sense of God present through an image.
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2015/11/the-bible-doesnt-condemn-worshipping-god-via-an-image/

This blows away Taken's anti-statue obsession.

 

[epostle1]

The "all statues" = idolatry is a stupid argument and guaranteed a loosing one.

 

[mjrhealth]

The "all statues" = idolatry is a stupid argument and guaranteed a loosing one.

One you will have to discuss with God one day.

 

[DPMartin]

One you will have to discuss with God one day.

beaker was better, my favorite was forgetful jones

 

[epostle1]

WHAT ARE THE ROMAN CATACOMBS?

The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather for the sacrifice of the Mass so as to worship free from the pagan’s persecutions.

Burial in the catacombs stopped when the barbarians plundered Rome. The popes removed the relics of the saints and martyrs from the catacombs. The catacombs, once abandoned, were gradually forgotten and not discovered again until the end of the sixteenth century. Most famous of the catacombs is that of St. Callistus, where many of the popes were buried after they were martyred for the faith.

HOW THE CATACOMBS BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH TODAY

An authentic Catholic catechism, containing to true Catholic teachings, could be composed from the pictures and inscriptions on the tombs and walls of ancient catacombs of the first three centuries. Pictures, medals, and inscriptions in the catacombs identify the faith of the early Christians with the Catholic faith.

The catacombs prove that the first Christians believed that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. They also believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the holy Eucharist, the divine institution of the papacy, the dignity of the mother of God, the intercession of the saints, purgatory, prayers for the deceased.

The emblem of the fish, ichthys, was frequently used in the catacombs. It is a symbol of the Lord Jesus, for the Greek word ichthys means “fish” and its letters are the initials for “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior.” When Christians spoke of “receiving the fish”, they meant to receive Jesus in Holy communion.

Frequently, pictures of our Savior in the catacombs reveal him as the Good Shepherd., carrying the lost sheep on his shoulders. This is the ancient biblical form which reveals the same message as our modern devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A number of people are sitting around a table on which is bread and fish.

Death and resurrection were often in the minds of the early Christians, as indicated by the pictures of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, Daniel in the lions’ den, and the raising of Lazarus. Their faith in resurrection and eternal life gave them courage in facing death under persecution. There is also the famous account of Tarsicius being martyred as he took the holy Eucharist, the bread of life, to Christian prisoners.

The eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass was offered in the catacombs on the altars under which rested the bodies of martyrs. Catholic altars even today have “altar stones” in which the relics of saints and martyrs were placed by bishops when they consecrated the altar stones.

A Catechism of the Catholic Church, by Robert J. Fox. Copyright© Franciscan Herald Press, pgs. 20, 21

These catacombs, on the Via Ostiensis, contain one of the earliest images of a bearded Christ. They originally held the relics of Saints Felix and Adauctus.

Sited along the Appian way, these catacombs were built after AD 150, with some private Christian hypogea and a funeral area directly dependent on the Catholic Church. It takes its name from the deacon Saint Callixtus, proposed by Pope Zephyrinus in the administration of the same cemetery - on his accession as pope, he enlarged the complex, that quite soon became the official one for the Roman Church. The arcades, where more than fifty martyrs and sixteen pontiffs were buried, form part of a complex graveyard that occupies fifteen hectares and is almost 20 km (12 mi) long.
Catacombs of Rome - Wikipedia

An early circular ichthys symbol, created by combining the Greek letters ΙΧΘΥΣ, Ephesus. (late 2nd century)

 

[DPMartin]

WHAT ARE THE ROMAN CATACOMBS?

I don't think anyone asked


the area where the Lord gave the catholic church world power to bash and banish opposition to it, or says anything unfavorable about it, is long over at least by 700 years.

every time you and your enraged friends post, you affirm to others of their opinion that its a bad idea to be catholic. you know this correct? I mean you have to be doing this on purpose, making catholics look stupid, right?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why does it matter, it wont change anything, are you not the expert on such things dont you know, I cant wait for that day, when you glorify God and Jesus , and send people to Christ instead of prison, thank God that He is patient with men. But you are just another Saul, brainwashed and whose heart is just 100% for the wrong thing, if it where for God, boy what things you could do.

God bless

In other words - you DON'T know when the Catholic Church came into existence.
This means that your earlier statement was a LIE:
"And the world has being exposing the catholic lies since your church was formed"

A little advice: If you can't back up your claims with facts - maybe you should just keep them to yourself.
This is getting embarrassing . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

In other words - you DON'T know when the Catholic Church came into existence.
This means that your earlier statement was a LIE:
"And the world has being exposing the catholic lies since your church was formed"

A little advice: If you can't back up your claims with facts - maybe you should just keep them to yourself.
This is getting embarrassing . . .

Oh BOL when will you ever glorify God, is He so beneath you, is your Church greater than God, mens religions that great abomination. Oh forget responding what have I do to with teh devil.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh BOL when will you ever glorify God, is He so beneath you, is your Church greater than God, mens religions that great abomination. Oh forget responding what have I do to with teh devil.

How can God be greater than God??

Acts 9:4-5
He (Saul) fell to the ground, and then he heard a voice saying, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?'
'Who are you, Lord?' he asked, and the answer came, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Saul was persecuting the CHURCH - yet Jesus asked Saul why he was persecuting HIM.
He equates His very SELF with His Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I can't believe you didn't listen to this and appreciate it and worship Mary as you listened.
Instead, all you do is criticize.
What a disgrace.

I can't believe that you lie about Catholics "worshiping" Mary or anybody else other than God.
Now THAT'S a disgrace . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

Saul was persecuting the CHURCH - yet Jesus asked Saul why he was persecuting HIM.
He equates His very SELF with His Church.

Ye just not your church, and that BOL is your problem, you have nothing to offer, just death, prison, and lies. This bit

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

and this bit

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Keep digging your grave BOL, but leave us out of it, this argument is between you and God, and you will loose, sorry has lost.

Now go do your worst as it is all you can do,

'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

And stop persecuting Him, it is not good for you or anyman.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ye just not your church, and that BOL is your problem, you have nothing to offer, just death, prison, and lies. This bit
Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
and this bit
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Keep digging your grave BOL, but leave us out of it, this argument is between you and God, and you will loose, sorry has lost.
Now go do your worst as it is all you can do,
And stop persecuting Him, it is not good for you or anyman.

In other words - you don't have a valid response.
You can't show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church.

All you can show is the endless splinters that arose after the 16th century.
YOUR sect over at "aggressivechristianity.net" didn't come about until 1980. Talk about a johnny-come-lately group . . .