graven image?

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epostle1

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no there isn't anything wrong with status, but to teach children to bow before them, therein is the problem. and because the catholic priesthood knows or knew better its on them.
Many Protestants will claim that, while the Catholic may say he does not adore statues, his actions prove otherwise. Catholics kiss statues, bow down before them, and pray in front of them. According to these same Protestants, that represents the adoration that is due God alone. Peter, when Cornelius bowed down to adore him, ordered him to “stand up; I too am a man” (Acts 10:26). When John bowed down before an angel, the angel told him, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you” (Rev. 19:10). But Catholics have no problem bowing down before what is less — a statue of Peter or John!

Is kissing or kneeling down before a statue the same as adoring it? Not necessarily. Both Peter in Acts 10 and the angel in Revelation 19 rebuked Cornelius and John, respectively, specifically for adoring them as if each was adoring the Lord. The problem was not with the bowing; it was with the adoration. Bowing does not necessarily entail adoration. For example, Jacob bowed to the ground on his knees seven times to his elder brother Esau (Gen. 33:3), Bathsheba bowed to her husband David (1 Kgs. 1:16), and Solomon bowed to his mother Bathsheba (1 Kgs. 2:19). In fact, in Revelation 3:9, John records the words of Jesus:

Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie — behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.

Here, John uses the same verb for “bow down” (proskuneo) that he used in Revelation 19:10 for “adoration” when he acknowledged his own error in adoring the angel. Would anyone dare say that Jesus would make someone commit idolatry? Of course not!

You still don't get it.
 

Grams

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Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


.
 

mjrhealth

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@Grams ye They just dont get it as he said always needing to justify teh lies and there religious doctrines.
 

aspen

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Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


.

Exodus 25:17 - “Make an atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them.

1 Kings 6:22 - For the inner sanctuary he made a pair of cherubim out of olive wood, each ten cubits high. One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape.

1 King 6:29 - Then he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved engravings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, inner and outer sanctuaries.

2 Chronicles 3:7 - He also overlaid the house with gold--the beams, the thresholds and its walls and its doors; and he carved cherubim on the walls.
 

mjrhealth

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Still justifying Idol worship, traditions religion doctrines as they well do.
 
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pia

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John uses the same verb for “bow down”
It is simply a case of 'worship'.......Worship is more than singing God a psalm, or preaching out loud to God or even saying nice things to Him.........Calling Jesus 'Lord' is worshiping Him, as long as it comes from a true heart.........Doing a nice thing for someone, because you think Jesus would have done it, if He were physically here to do so, that too is worship.
So yes, statues and priest ( and a couple of other things ) who receive such focus from their congregations, have become idols....They become the focus of the worship only Jesus/God deserves.
Even worse....any man in the priesthood who either choose or demand being called Father, is a blasphemer and a usurper.....Far too many things slide by in various religious institutions, because they are man made and have their foundation in men...
 
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Grams

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It is simply a case of 'worship'.......Worship is more than singing God a psalm, or preaching out loud to God or even saying nice things to Him.........Calling Jesus 'Lord' is worshiping Him, as long as it comes from a true heart.........Doing a nice thing for someone, because you think Jesus would have done it, if He were physically here to do so, that too is worship.
So yes, statues and priest ( and a couple of other things ) who receive such focus from their congregations, have become idols....They become the focus of the worship only Jesus/God deserves.
Even worse....any man in the priesthood who either choose or demand being called Father, is a blasphemer and a usurper.....Far too many things slide by in various religious institutions, because they are man made and have their foundation in men...

Very GOOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's it !!!!!!! :)
 
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epostle1

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It is simply a case of 'worship'.......Worship is more than singing God a psalm, or preaching out loud to God or even saying nice things to Him.........Calling Jesus 'Lord' is worshiping Him, as long as it comes from a true heart.........Doing a nice thing for someone, because you think Jesus would have done it, if He were physically here to do so, that too is worship.
So yes, statues and priest ( and a couple of other things ) who receive such focus from their congregations, have become idols....They become the focus of the worship only Jesus/God deserves.
Even worse....any man in the priesthood who either choose or demand being called Father, is a blasphemer and a usurper.....Far too many things slide by in various religious institutions, because they are man made and have their foundation in men...
That's ridiculous. Catholics worship The Father, the Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit and nothing else. You have no evidence to the contrary so what you are saying is malicious slandering, done out of ignorance. When was the last time you were at a Mass and observed for yourself your silly lies?

Matt. 23:9 – Jesus says, “call no man father.” But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests “father.” This is an example of “eisegesis” (imposing one’s views upon a passage) as opposed to “exegesis” (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father. But you are a fundamentalist and God will not hold your invincible ignorance against you.

Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 – priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means “communicating one’s nature,” and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 – elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, “Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?”
Oh but we don't follow the Bible and you do???

1 Cor. 4:15 – Paul writes, “I became your father in Christ Jesus.” According to your Bible twisting, Paul is a blasphemer and a usurper.

1 Cor. 4:17 – Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful “child” in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 – Paul describes his role as parent over his “children” the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 – Paul calls Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a “father.”

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders’ ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 – Paul calls Timothy his true “child” in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 – Paul calls Titus his true “child” in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 – Paul says he has become the “father” of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 – emphasizes our earthly “fathers.” But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 – Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his “son.”

1 John 2:1,13,14 – John calls the elders of the Church “fathers.” Are both Paul and John wrong?

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 – John calls members of the Church “children.”

Calling priests "father" is biblical and legitimate. Attacking Catholics because we have been following the Bible (before there was a Bible) for 2000 years reveals your man made traditions that started in the 16th century. Will you guys ever grow up?
 
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epostle1

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12-Ark.gif

Scripture does not condemn the use of images to aid in worshiping God, as some Christian communities suppose. On the contrary, the Old Testament is full of examples of God giving the Israelites permission to do just that, as in the pillars of cloud and fire and Ark of the Covenant, both pictured here in Benjamin West’s 19th century work.

Sometimes we miss things in the Bible, though they are right in front of us. Some of our Protestant brethren (mainly Calvinists, but some other denominations as well) have an almost obsessive fear of any image associated with worship at all, thinking that all such manifestations are examples of idolatry and undue exaltation of a “graven image.”

In other words, all images whatsoever are collapsed in this wrongheaded mentality into the category of the “graven image, forbidden in the Ten Commandments.” But the Bible doesn’t take this view at all. Here is one striking example:

Exodus 33:8-10 (RSV): “Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose up, and every man stood at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he had gone into the tent. When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the door of the tent, and the LORD would speak with Moses. And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the door of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, every man at his tent door.”

Note that the pillar of cloud is:

1.) a creation (water, if a literal cloud);

2.) visual, hence an image; and

3.) thought to directly represent God Himself.

It’s also a supernatural manifestation, which is a major difference compared to any true idol made by the hands of men; but that would make no difference for those who mistakenly hold that any image whatsoever associated with God is impermissible.

The Bible mentions a pillar of cloud and also a pillar of fire (by night), representing God (see: Ex 13:21-22; 14:24; Num 14:14; Neh 9:12, 19). It doesn’t always state that the people worshiped God through the supernatural image-pillars, but we know from Exodus 33:8-10 that it was entirely permissible to do so; certainly not “idolatry.”

The problem (for certain Christians who don’t like images) comes when God Himself expressly sanctions such images, and worship in conjunction with them, as here. The same iconoclasts (opposers of images) have to explain away things like the burning bush (Ex 3:2-6), which is not only fire, but also called an “angel of the Lord” (Ex 3:2), yet also “God” (3:4, 6, 11, 13-16, 18; 4:5, 7-8) and “the LORD” (3:7, 16, 18; 4:2, 4-6, 10-11, 14) interchangeably.

An angel is a creation (as are fire and cloud); yet God chose to use a created being and inanimate objects to visibly represent Him. Several similar instances occur in the Old Testament. Moreover, the Jews “worshiped” fire as representative of God in the following passage:

2 Chronicles 7:1-4: “When Solomon had ended his prayer, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. And the priests could not enter the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD filled the LORD’s house. When all the children of Israel upon the temple, they bowed down with their faces to the earth on the pavement, and worshiped and gave thanks to the LORD, saying, ‘For he is good, for his steadfast love endures for ever.’ Then the king and all the people offered sacrifice before the LORD.”

A related argument, not quite as explicit or direct, but still highly relevant, can be made from the use of images in worship that are very closely tied to God, such as the tabernacle, temple, and ark of the covenant. The Bible teaches that Jewish worship was often directed toward these holy and sacred objects; therefore, in a large sense, they represented God Himself.

We know that God made Himself specially present in or near all these material objects.
He states repeatedly that He is present above the “mercy seat” on the ark of the covenant, between the two carved cherubim (Ex 25:22; 30:6; Lev 16:2; Num 7:89; 1 Sam 4:4; 2 Sam 6:2; 2 Kg 19:15; 1 Chr 13:6; Ps 80:1; 99:1; Is 37:16; Ezek 10:4; Heb 9:5).

Therefore, we are informed that the Jews would bow before the ark to pray or worship:

Joshua 7:6: “Then Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the evening …” [proceeds to pray in 7:7-8]

1 Chronicles 16:4:“Moreover he appointed certain of the Levites as ministers before the ark of the LORD, to invoke, to thank, and to praise the LORD, the God of Israel.”

The Jews prayed “toward” Jerusalem and the temple there (more images representing Him or His presence):

1 Kings 8:44: “… they pray to the LORD toward the city which thou hast chosen and the house which I have built for thy name.”

Psalm 5:7: “But I through the abundance of thy steadfast love will enter thy house, I will worship toward thy holy temple in the fear of thee.”

Psalm 138:2: “I bow down toward thy holy temple and give thanks to thy name for thy steadfast love and thy faithfulness; …”


The temple had all sorts of images in it: giving the lie to the notion that houses of worship couldn’t possibly have any images. It had “carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers” (1 Kg 6:29). From whence comes this notion, then, of bare white-walled churches? Not from Scripture!

Some of the early Calvinists were so fanatical that they smashed not only statues of saints, but also organs, stained glass, even statues of Jesus Christ and crucifixes. They ignored all the distinctions that the Bible plainly makes. We reject such clear biblical teaching at our peril. Iconoclasm (opposition to images) is a false tradition of men that was officially condemned by the Church long ago. Catholic Eucharistic worship and devotion hearkens back to this sense of God present through an image.
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2015/11/the-bible-doesnt-condemn-worshipping-god-via-an-image/
 
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mjrhealth

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Calling priests "father" is biblical and legitimate. Attacking Catholics because we have been following the Bible (before there was a Bible) for 2000 years reveals your man made traditions that started in the 16th century. Will you guys ever grow up?
sorry you dont follow the bible you follow your religions doctrines to your own detriment. ANd there is no one attacking catholics, we know you love that must make you feel so good, wont find anyone here who hates catholics, its catholism and anti Christ doctrines we hate.
 

epostle1

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sorry you dont follow the bible you follow your religions doctrines to your own detriment. ANd there is no one attacking catholics, we know you love that must make you feel so good, wont find anyone here who hates catholics, its catholism and anti Christ doctrines we hate.
I haven't mentioned any doctrines. You can't refute my posts intelligently so you make a lot of noise. Your knee-jerk reactions to anybody who is Catholic, regardless of the content, are meaningless. You should look up "religion" in the dictionary and stop using your private definition.
 
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mjrhealth

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mjrhealth: bye
image.jpg
Mat_24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

but so many are

Mat_11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
 

pia

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That's ridiculous.
I will happily stay in what the Lord has shown me........It matters little to me what any type of church or denomination say....I will seek the Lord for my answers till I'm not on planet Earth anymore.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Mat_24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
but so many are
Mat_11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Actually - epostle1 is merely showing you some mercy by ignoring you . . .
 

mjrhealth

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Actually - epostle1 is merely showing you some mercy by ignoring you . . .
Nah hes doing nothing but digging His own grave like you, I have nothing to fear from Him its God, he and you need to think on..

Mat_18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

13 years.

God bless
 

BreadOfLife

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Nah hes doing nothing but digging His own grave like you, I have nothing to fear from Him its God, he and you need to think on..
13 years.
No - I've been exposing anti-Catholic lies like yours online for 14 years . . .