Grailhunter’s Corner
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Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
You -- us Christians.
The topic is not to be fearful of persecutions and troubles, the providence of God will see you---us through it just as He saw Noah and his family through the flood.
101G
Well-Known Member
1 Peter 3:20 & 21 is clear that the apostle was baptized, I thought you might can use these scriptures in your argument with those who don't believe water baptism for everyone. only Christ baptize with his Spirit. only Human Administrators use water.
PICJAG.
PICJAG.
Thank you.
As it is we know the Apostles were obedient to Christ.
As it is the scriptures denote the requirement of water baptism.
In motion, the scriptures document the urgency of Baptisms after accepting Christ as their Savior.
There is a topic that compares the difference between John's baptism for the remission of sins and being baptized in the name of Christ.
101G
Well-Known Member
Amen that hits it on the Head, because, death ... SEPARATES, so one can join to another. Romans 7:1 "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?"
Romans 7:2 "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."
Romans 7:3 "So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."
one cannot be married/betrothed to christ while married to another, this is why water baptism is so important, it KILLS, sorry about that.
Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Romans 6:7 "For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Romans 6:8 "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"
Romans 6:9 "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him."
Romans 6:10 "For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God."
Romans 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
THE BEST WAY TO DIE WHILE ALIVE IS TO BE "BAPTIZE IN WATER". death free us up while we're ALIVE.
nice conversation , thanks.
PICJAG.
*****************The History Of Hell*******************
Because the beliefs of Hell move through time periods, concepts, and religions I will refer to it as “a place of punishment” as I go along. Of course I am referring to the after life.
To start with the Hebrews, Israelites, and Jews, they did not have any concept of “a place of punishment” Accept for the few exceptions, when the “Jews” died they were gathered with their fathers in Shoal. Shoal is a topic and the descriptions and beliefs vary, but in general it is a spiritual place that is more or less neutral… neither being really good or really bad. From here on, although not perfectly accurate I will be calling them Jews…and that includes the terms and names Hebrew and Israelites.
Over the course of time the Jews were conquered and subjugated, eventually falling under the overall benevolent rule of the Persians. The predominate religion of Persia was Zoroastrianism also called Mazdayasna. Zoroastrianism has some similarities to Christianity. It notes a battle between good and evil, a place of blessings and a place of punishment. It has good and benevolent deities and an evil deity.
The Persian language is called Farsi, and their word for the place of punishment is Duzakh. This place in generally described as having foul smells, bad and rotting food, and “fire” but a dark fire and souls that are packed tightly together although they believe they are in total isolation. In ancient Zoroastrian eschatology, a 3,000-year struggle between good and evil would be fought, punctuated by evil's final destruction.
If you are wondering when the word hell is going to appear in any religion, that does not happen until around 725 AD, well after the biblical era.
So while the Jews were under Persian rule they were exposed to and influenced by Zoroastrianism. Eventually the Persians were conquered by Alexander the Great. This developed into Greek rule. In Greek Mythology there was a mischievous god named Hades and he ruled over a spiritual realm that was also called Hades, which was a place of imprisonment.
The Jews of Christ time had adopted the concepts of a place of punishment from the Persians and the named it Hades from the Greeks. So in the Bible the word Hades appears as a place of punishment. The Bible also mentions Gehenna, (literally translated as "Valley of Hinnom") metaphorically as a place of punishment, but it was actually a cavern / valley that served as a trash dump for trash and dead bodies. The Greeks and Romans burnt anything that would attract insects or scavengers.
In the Bible there are various references to a place of punishment that is described in different ways, but the word Hell does not appear in the original scriptures, even though you will see it inserted into modern translations. But the Greek word Hades does. Which also can be a little confusing because depending on the biblical translation, the Christian Old Testament inserts the Greek word Hades into the Hebrew texts. Which is another error in translation. Again the Old Testament Jews did not have a Hell, or a Hades, or a devil in their religion.
Even in Christ’s time Hell…Hades or the devil, were not part of their “official religious beliefs” and this continues into Judaism today. Still in Christ’s time there were Jews that knew of Hades and the devil. Now did the Jews know that Satan was the devil? That is not clear, but Christ defines the devil as Satan. In some versions of the Bible he is also called Lucifer in the Old Testament, which is another mistranslation. The use of the word Lucifer was interjected one time into the Old Testament during the Latin Vulgate translation and then pulled into other language translations. The verse is discussing a king and the word inserted…Lucifer is a feminine name, and it is the Latin name for the second planet in the solar system…namely Venus. So the insertion of the word is completely wrong. This goes into the topic of the Morning Star.
So after the biblical era the place of punishment continued to be called Hades or Gehenna or Gehinnom, not to say that there were not other names. Other than the place being bad, dark, evil, torture by fire and demons, the biblical descriptions or details of Hades are minimal to say the least.
So we come to the word Hell. The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first developed around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead in Norse mythology.) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period. The word has similarities in all branches of the Germanic languages, including Old Norse hel (which refers to both a location and goddess-like being in Norse mythology), ergo… Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Old High German hella, and Gothic halja, all being feminine. All forms ultimately derive from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic feminine noun xaljō or haljō ('referring to a concealed place or underworld'). Upon the Christianization of the Germanic peoples, extension of Proto-Germanic xaljō were reinterpreted to denote the underworld in Christian mythology…. ergo the Christian Hell.
The over all details and mental images of Hell actually comes from different sources….Some 2nd to 4th century Gnostic gospels have detailed descriptions of a place of punishment. In 1320, poet Dante Alighieri published “The Divine Comedy” which described Hell in great detail with illustrations. In 1667, poet John Milton published his book(s) Paradise Lost which included ten volumes of books which were heavily illustrated and a lot of descriptions of Hell. So these sources kind of filled in the blanks for Christians as to what Hell was like and the images thereof.
Now because the Pagans wrote of the concepts of a place of punishment first, Charles “Taze” Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, came to the conclusion that Hell was not real. (1879) Which would be completely wrong of course.
The bottom line is that a place of punishment exists and it is very bad, but still the details of this place are up for debate.
Because the beliefs of Hell move through time periods, concepts, and religions I will refer to it as “a place of punishment” as I go along. Of course I am referring to the after life.
To start with the Hebrews, Israelites, and Jews, they did not have any concept of “a place of punishment” Accept for the few exceptions, when the “Jews” died they were gathered with their fathers in Shoal. Shoal is a topic and the descriptions and beliefs vary, but in general it is a spiritual place that is more or less neutral… neither being really good or really bad. From here on, although not perfectly accurate I will be calling them Jews…and that includes the terms and names Hebrew and Israelites.
Over the course of time the Jews were conquered and subjugated, eventually falling under the overall benevolent rule of the Persians. The predominate religion of Persia was Zoroastrianism also called Mazdayasna. Zoroastrianism has some similarities to Christianity. It notes a battle between good and evil, a place of blessings and a place of punishment. It has good and benevolent deities and an evil deity.
The Persian language is called Farsi, and their word for the place of punishment is Duzakh. This place in generally described as having foul smells, bad and rotting food, and “fire” but a dark fire and souls that are packed tightly together although they believe they are in total isolation. In ancient Zoroastrian eschatology, a 3,000-year struggle between good and evil would be fought, punctuated by evil's final destruction.
If you are wondering when the word hell is going to appear in any religion, that does not happen until around 725 AD, well after the biblical era.
So while the Jews were under Persian rule they were exposed to and influenced by Zoroastrianism. Eventually the Persians were conquered by Alexander the Great. This developed into Greek rule. In Greek Mythology there was a mischievous god named Hades and he ruled over a spiritual realm that was also called Hades, which was a place of imprisonment.
The Jews of Christ time had adopted the concepts of a place of punishment from the Persians and the named it Hades from the Greeks. So in the Bible the word Hades appears as a place of punishment. The Bible also mentions Gehenna, (literally translated as "Valley of Hinnom") metaphorically as a place of punishment, but it was actually a cavern / valley that served as a trash dump for trash and dead bodies. The Greeks and Romans burnt anything that would attract insects or scavengers.
In the Bible there are various references to a place of punishment that is described in different ways, but the word Hell does not appear in the original scriptures, even though you will see it inserted into modern translations. But the Greek word Hades does. Which also can be a little confusing because depending on the biblical translation, the Christian Old Testament inserts the Greek word Hades into the Hebrew texts. Which is another error in translation. Again the Old Testament Jews did not have a Hell, or a Hades, or a devil in their religion.
Even in Christ’s time Hell…Hades or the devil, were not part of their “official religious beliefs” and this continues into Judaism today. Still in Christ’s time there were Jews that knew of Hades and the devil. Now did the Jews know that Satan was the devil? That is not clear, but Christ defines the devil as Satan. In some versions of the Bible he is also called Lucifer in the Old Testament, which is another mistranslation. The use of the word Lucifer was interjected one time into the Old Testament during the Latin Vulgate translation and then pulled into other language translations. The verse is discussing a king and the word inserted…Lucifer is a feminine name, and it is the Latin name for the second planet in the solar system…namely Venus. So the insertion of the word is completely wrong. This goes into the topic of the Morning Star.
So after the biblical era the place of punishment continued to be called Hades or Gehenna or Gehinnom, not to say that there were not other names. Other than the place being bad, dark, evil, torture by fire and demons, the biblical descriptions or details of Hades are minimal to say the least.
So we come to the word Hell. The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first developed around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead in Norse mythology.) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period. The word has similarities in all branches of the Germanic languages, including Old Norse hel (which refers to both a location and goddess-like being in Norse mythology), ergo… Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Old High German hella, and Gothic halja, all being feminine. All forms ultimately derive from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic feminine noun xaljō or haljō ('referring to a concealed place or underworld'). Upon the Christianization of the Germanic peoples, extension of Proto-Germanic xaljō were reinterpreted to denote the underworld in Christian mythology…. ergo the Christian Hell.
The over all details and mental images of Hell actually comes from different sources….Some 2nd to 4th century Gnostic gospels have detailed descriptions of a place of punishment. In 1320, poet Dante Alighieri published “The Divine Comedy” which described Hell in great detail with illustrations. In 1667, poet John Milton published his book(s) Paradise Lost which included ten volumes of books which were heavily illustrated and a lot of descriptions of Hell. So these sources kind of filled in the blanks for Christians as to what Hell was like and the images thereof.
Now because the Pagans wrote of the concepts of a place of punishment first, Charles “Taze” Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, came to the conclusion that Hell was not real. (1879) Which would be completely wrong of course.
The bottom line is that a place of punishment exists and it is very bad, but still the details of this place are up for debate.
Last edited:
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
You're welcome....I had forgotten about this thread and am reading through some of what I haven't read yet. Thank you so much for all this effort!
@Heart2Soul Sometimes threads take an effort to keep up with... :)
Yes, and this one needs much time set aside to read...lol...it's like a book.
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