God's Hatred

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Christian Soldier

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If you want to debate I'm ready, I might look stupid, but I ain't.
Jesus didn't die for the WHOLE kosmos?

Praise Abba for this wonderful truth and let every man be found a liar--

Pro_30:6 Do not add to His words, Or He will reprove you, and you will be found a liar.
Rom_3:4 Certainly not! Let God be found true [as He will be], though every person be found a liar, just as it is written [in Scripture], "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED [by sinful men]." [Psa_51:4]
ἠγάπησεν] The indefinite signifying the universal and eternal existence of that love which God Himself is (1Jn_4:8).
τὸν κόσμον, the world, in the most general sense, as represented by, and included in, man,—Gen_3:17-18; Gen_1:28;—not, the elect, which would utterly destroy the force of the passage: see on Joh_3:18.
The Lord here reveals Love as the one ground of the divine counsel in redemption,—salvation of men, as its one purpose with regard to them.
τὸν υἱὸν … ἔδωκεν] These words, whether spoken in Hebrew or in Greek, seem to carry a reference to the offering of Isaac; and Nicodemus in that case would at once be reminded by them of the love there required, the substitution there made, and the prophecy there uttered to Abraham, to which ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστ. so nearly corresponds.
ἔδωκεν—absolute, not merely τῷ κόσμῳ—gave up,—παρέδωκεν,—Rom_8:32; where as Stier remarks, we have again, in the οὐκ ἐφείσατο, an unmistakeable allusion to the οὐκ ἐφείσω, said to Abraham, Gen_22:16.
ἵνα …] By the repetition of this final clause verbatim from Joh_3:15, we have the identity of the former clauses established: i.e. the uplifting of the Son of Man like the serpent in the wilderness is the manifestation of the Divine Love in the gift of the Son of God:—ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου of Joh_3:14, = in the strictest sense, ὁ υἱὸς αὐτ. ὁ μονογ. of Joh_3:16.

Jesus Calls All Men – In Joh_3:16-21 Jesus Christ makes His call to all men. This passage of Scripture contains perhaps the most well-known verse in the Scriptures, which is Joh_3:16, a verse that summarizes the ultimate theme of the Scriptures, and God’s call for mankind to accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

When Jesus entered His public ministry, it is important to note that He never condemned the sinner of his sins (Joh_3:17).

For example, Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery (Joh_8:1-11), nor the Samaritan woman who had been with five husbands (Joh_4:1-42).

Rather, He offered Himself to them as their Healer and miracle-worker in order that they might believe in Him as their Saviour. Although He rebuked the Jewish leaders because they despised Him and they looked down upon the sinners, He did not come to condemn mankind for their sins.

He looked forward to His work of redemption on Calvary and loved them, knowing that their sins were about to be paid for on Calvary. God’s wrath was poured out upon Jesus Christ, so that He is no longer at war with sinful man, as we see in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Under the Old Covenant God dealt with His children Israel by using judgment for their sins. In a similar manner, we judge our children when they disobey simply because a child cannot understand the results of his sins. However, when our children become adults, we no long discipline our children; rather, we become friends, realizing that they understand the difference between right and wrong. We stand with our children when they become adults and are ready to offer advice.

In a similar way, God judged Israel as His children under the Law because they could not understand God’s ways in the manner we understand under the New Covenant by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Like spanking a child, divine judgment was the only thing that Israel understood under the Old Covenant when breaking the Law. When Jesus came upon this earth and paid for the sins of mankind, past, present, and future, pouring out His Holy Spirit into the hearts of those who believe in Him, God could then call them His “friends” (Joh_15:15).

Joh_15:15, “Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”

The Author’s Commentary – Scholars popularly believe that Joh_3:16-21 contains a commentary on the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus recorded in Joh_3:1-20. The author pauses from his narrative to give his readers the reason for God’s offer of eternal life, which comes from His love for mankind. John the apostle pauses a number of times in his Gospel to make such comments. For example, we see a similar commentary in Joh_3:31-36 as the author explains the words of John the Baptist recorded in Joh_3:27-30. Also, in Joh_18:9 the author makes comments in Joh_18:9; Joh_18:32 and Joh_19:35-37 of fulfilled prophecy in the midst of the narrative story of Jesus’ arrest, trial, and crufixion.

Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh_3:16 — “For God so loved the world” – Comments - One Sunday morning, a person that I had a crush on announced that she was engaged to a young man. So, with a broken heart, I drove home, lay on the floor and prayed these words, “Lord, it hurts so much to love.” The Lord immediately spoke this verse to me, “For God so loved the world.” In other words, God has felt the same hurt and rejection that I was feeling. I realized at that moment just how much God loved mankind, even every individual on earth. God loves people, and when we hurt other people, we are hurting the one He loves the most. I began to see people in a different way from then on and began treating them with much more thoughtfulness, now knowing how God felt about them, how much God loved them, and how dangerous it is to injure those whom He dearly loves.

Joh_3:16 — “that he gave his only begotten Son” – Comments - Here we see that giving is a natural result of true love. Giving comes from the heart of one who loves.

Joh_3:16 — “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” – Word Study on “should not perish” – Strong says the Greek word “perish” (ἀπόλλυμι) (G622) means, “to destroy fully,” and reflexive, “to perish, lose.” BDAG says it means, “perish, die.”
Everett

Tired now.
J.
I don't need an introduction to your Arminian theology. I know it better than you do. Arminians use subjective circular reasoning, where they start with a false premise and then build an entire systematic theology around the false premise. That approach may work on those who don't know the truth of the gospel, but those of us who know the truth see it for what it is.

I have laid several charges against your theology, and haven't defended any of them. You just resort to quoting verses of scripture out of their intended context, in the hope that I would accept your man centered gospel. I believe the God centered Gospel, where God saves those He elected to save before He made the world, and you can't deal with the awful truth of the gospel, so you make up a false gospel.
 
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Christian Soldier

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Have you ever considered these things also God hates? ‘Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.’

Also on the list of those things God hates…burnt offerings. And animal sacrifices
Most Christians confine God to be a God of love, who loves everyone unconditionally. They believe He is trying His hardest to sell salvation, and save everyone from an eternity in the flames of hell by offering eternal paradise, instead. But the vast majority reject His free offer and mock Him for making such a foolish offer, and they choose hell instead.

According to these Christians, God is a poor salesman, who can't even sell eternal paradise for free. Perhaps God should have attended one of those weekend seminars, where motivational speakers share their secrets of how to become a successful salesman.

I personally don't want anything to do with a god, who loves everyone unconditionally. I can't think of a more pathetic and foolish god than that.
 
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Jack

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If you don't hate evil people, then you're evil yourself. If God didn't hate evil people, He would be evil Himself. It's very simple to understand.
Should I believe you or Jesus? I'll stick with Jesus. You really HATE your family? Wow!

Matthew 5:44
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
 
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Johann

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I don't need an introduction to your Arminian theology. I know it better than you do. Arminians use subjective circular reasoning, where they start with a false premise and then build an entire systematic theology around the false premise. That approach may work on those who don't know the truth of the gospel, but those of us who know the truth see it for what it is.

I have laid several charges against your theology, and haven't defended any of them. You just resort to quoting verses of scripture out of their intended context, in the hope that I would accept your man centered gospel. I believe the God centered Gospel, where God saves those He elected to save before He made the world, and you can't deal with the awful truth of the gospel, so you make up a false gospel.
 

Lambano

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Since we've heard Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount, let's hear from the Sermon on the Plain:

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. (Luke 6:32-36)

"Then you will be children of the Most High". But Man by nature would prefer to justify his own hatreds. Whoever has ears to hear, let 'em hear.
 
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Johann

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Since we've heard Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount, let's hear from the Sermon on the Plain:

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. (Luke 6:32-36)

"Then you will be children of the Most High". But Man by nature would prefer to justify his own hatreds. Whoever has ears to hear, let 'em hear.
Eph 5:1 So you must keep on following God's example, as dearly loved children of His,
Eph 5:2 and practice living in love, just as Christ loved you too and gave Himself for you as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Eph 5:3 But sexual vice and any form of immorality or sensual greed must not so much as be mentioned among you, as that is the only course becoming in God's people;
Eph 5:4 there must be no indecency, silly talk or suggestive jesting, for they are unbecoming. There should be thanksgiving instead.
Eph 5:5 For you may be absolutely sure that no one who is sexually impure, immoral or greedy for gain (for that is idolatry) can have a part in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 Stop letting anyone deceive you with groundless arguments about these things, for it is because of these very sins that God's anger comes down upon the disobedient.
Eph 5:7 So you must stop having anything to do with them.
Eph 5:8 For at one time you were darkness itself, but now in union with the Lord you are light itself. You must live like children of light,
Eph 5:9 for the product of light consists in practicing everything that is good and right and true;
Eph 5:10 you must approve what is pleasing to the Lord.
Eph 5:11 Stop having anything to do with the profitless doings of darkness; instead you must continue to expose them.
Eph 5:12 For it is disgraceful even to mention the vices practiced in secret by them;
Eph 5:13 and yet anything that is exposed by the light is made clear to them, for anything that is made clear is light.
Eph 5:14 So it is said: "Wake up, sleeper; get up from the dead, and Christ will make day dawn on you."
Eph 5:15 So you must be very careful how you live, not thoughtlessly but thoughtfully,
Eph 5:16 and continue to make the most of your opportunities, for the times are evil.
Eph 5:17 So stop becoming senseless, but understand what the Lord's will is.
Eph 5:18 Stop getting drunk on wine, for that means profligacy, but ever be filled with the Spirit,
Eph 5:19 and always be speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Keep on praying and praising the Lord with all your heart;
Eph 5:20 continue giving thanks for everything to God our Father;

Eph 5:21 keep on living in subordination to one another out of reverence to Christ.

ὀργή
orgḗ; gen. orgḗs, fem. noun from orégō (G3713), covet after, desire. Wrath, anger as a state of mind. Contrast thumós (G2372), indignation, wrath as the outburst of a vengeful mind. Aristotle says that orgḗ, anger, is desire with grief (cf. Mar_3:5; Rom_12:19; Eph_4:31; Col_3:8). Fretfulness (1Ti_2:8; Jas_1:19-20; Sept.: Deu_32:19; Jos_9:20; 2Sa_12:5; Job_16:10; Pro_21:14). The Stoics sought to let go of all passion, but were insensitive to others, often punishing any who had hurt them. The anger or wrath of man (Eph_4:31; Col_3:8; Jas_1:19-20); of God as utter abhorrence to sin but longing mixed with grief for those who live in it (Heb_3:11; Heb_4:3; Sept.: Exo_4:14; Exo_32:11; Deu_29:20; Isa_10:5); the effect of anger or wrath, i.e., punishment (Rom_4:15) from man (Rom_13:4-5) or from God, referring to divine judgment to be inflicted upon the wicked (Mat_3:7; Luk_3:7; Luk_21:23, Joh_3:36; Rom_1:18; Rom_2:5, Rom_2:8; Rom_3:5; Rom_5:9; Rom_9:22; Eph_2:3; Eph_5:6; Col_3:6; 1Th_1:10; 1Th_2:16; 1Th_5:9; Rev_6:16-17; Rev_11:18; Rev_14:10; Rev_16:19; Rev_19:15).
Deriv.: orgízō (G3710), to make angry, provoke; orgílos (G3711), angry, quick- tempered.
Syn.: pikría (G4088), bitterness; cholḗ (G5521), gall; eritheía (G2052), partisan strife; aganáktēsis (G24), indignation.
Ant.: egkráteia (G1466), self-control; praótēs (G4236), meekness; praǘtēs (G4240), mildness; hēsuchía (G2271), quietness; eirḗnē (G1515), peace; galḗnē (G1055), calm; hupomonḗ (G5281), patience.
Word Studies.

Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty dvarim. For, because of these things the Charon Af Hashem comes upon the Bnei HaMeri (sons of Rebellion).
Eph 5:7 Therefore, do not be shuttafim (partners) with them.
CHAPTER 5 Redemption becomes a key word tieing together the rich challenge of the first part of the book with the pulsating closing thoughts. Here is one point for each chapter:

(1) Redeemed by His blood
(2) Redeemed by His cross
(3) Redeemed through His church
(4) Redemption demands purity
(5) Redemption demands separation
(5) Redemption brings opposition.

The first part of chapter 5 reminds us forcefully that we follow the Lord and not the flesh. No filthiness, jesting, fornication, covetousness, vanity, disobedience, or fellowship with darkness can be tolerated.

The last section of chapter 5 tells the message of submission. It is a story of Christ and the church illustrated by the husband-wife relationship in marriage.
"the wrath of God comes" This is a Present tense. It refers to either (1) temporal judgment (cf. Joh_3:36; Rom_1:18-32; Rom_2:8-9; Rom_9:22; Col_3:6 1Th_2:16); and/or (2) future eschatological judgment (cf. Mat_25:31 ff; Rom_5:9; 1Th_1:10; 1Th_5:9). God's wrath is as revelatory as God's love.
While on this subject of the wrath of God, let me be clear about my understanding of its implications. First it is a theological tragedy to over-emphasize or under-emphasize this truth. God is angry with the way mankind treats His word, His world, His will, and each other. This is not the world that God intended it to be! All human beings will give an account to God for how they lived their lives (cf. Gal_6:7; 2Co_5:10). However, it is important to recognize the biblical perspective on this doctrine. Deu_5:9 compared with Deu_5:10 and Deu_7:9 sets the pattern. As judgment runs to the third and fourth generations, God's love and faithfulness runs to a thousand generations. In Isa_28:21 judgment is called God's "strange" work (cf. Lam_3:32-33; Psa_103:8-14). Judgment is necessary in a moral universe, but is unpleasant to God. Hell is an open bleeding sore in God's heart that will never be healed. He loves all humans made in His image (cf. Gen_1:26-27; Gen_5:1; Gen_9:6). He wants to redeem all humans and He has promised to do so for all who will repent and believe in His Son (cf. Gen_3:15; Eze_18:23; Eze_18:32; 1Ti_2:4; 2Pe_3:9).
Utley.


Now that we have the context-Is God continually in a state of "hating" the sons of disobedience?

@Lambano I would appreciate a response from you.
Thanks brother.
J.
 
J

Johann

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In Scripture, particularly in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and New Testament, while God expresses anger or wrath toward disobedience and wickedness, there is no direct statement that God "hates" the sons of disobedience as a class of people. The biblical message consistently points to God’s holiness and justice in response to sin, but it also emphasizes His mercy and desire for repentance.

In the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament): In the Hebrew Scriptures, God expresses strong displeasure and anger toward sin and rebellion, but the word "hate" (שָׂנֵא, sané) is not used in the context of an enduring hatred toward individuals. For example, passages like Psalm 5:5 say, "The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all workers of iniquity" (NKJV). Here, the phrase can be interpreted to mean God's opposition to sin and injustice, not an eternal hatred for people. Prophets like Ezekiel emphasize that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but desires repentance (Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11).

In the Greek New Testament: In Ephesians 2:2-3, Paul refers to people as "sons of disobedience," saying they once walked in the ways of the world under the influence of the "prince of the power of the air." This term describes their state of disobedience and rebellion, but it does not equate to God hating them. In fact, in Ephesians 2:4-5, Paul immediately emphasizes God's love and mercy, saying, "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ" (NKJV). This reveals that, despite their disobedience, God acted in love to offer salvation.

Another verse often discussed in this context is Romans 9:13, where Paul quotes Malachi 1:2-3: "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." This usage of "hate" is often understood in a comparative sense, not as literal hatred, but as God’s sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau to fulfill His purposes. The language reflects God’s choice in salvation history rather than personal animosity toward Esau or his descendants.

Ancient Rabbinical Writings: In ancient rabbinical literature, God’s judgment is depicted as righteous and just, with an emphasis on His mercy toward those who repent. The Talmud and Midrash often discuss God’s long-suffering nature toward sinners and His desire to see repentance. For example, in Pirkei Avot 5:23, the rabbis speak of God's patience and mercy even when sinners commit grievous acts, and they highlight repentance as central to avoiding divine judgment. This mirrors the biblical emphasis on God’s willingness to forgive rather than hate.

J.
 
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face2face

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Another verse often discussed in this context is Romans 9:Also 13, where Paul quotes Malachi 1:2-3: "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." This usage of "hate" is often understood in a comparative sense, not as literal hatred, but as God’s sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau to fulfill His purposes. The language reflects God’s choice in salvation history rather than personal animosity toward Esau or his descendants.

J.
Another good post J. This is spot on!

It's like Gen.29:31

tn Heb “hated.” The rhetorical device of overstatement is used (note v. 30, which says simply that Jacob loved Rachel more than he did Leah) to emphasize that Rachel, as Jacob’s true love and the primary object of his affections, had an advantage over Leah.

Jesus uses the same technique when speaking of our love for him should seem as hatred by comparision.

Also, its a matter of selection on God's part, as He foreknew Gen 25:25 & Obadiah16!

In reality, Esau represents Jacob in the flesh....and while God hates sin, he doesn't hate the flesh, only what comes from it!

Many lessons there

F2F
 
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Johann

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Another good post J. This is spot on!

It's like Gen.29:31

tn Heb “hated.” The rhetorical device of overstatement is used (note v. 30, which says simply that Jacob loved Rachel more than he did Leah) to emphasize that Rachel, as Jacob’s true love and the primary object of his affections, had an advantage over Leah.

Jesus uses the same technique when speaking of our love for him should seem as hatred by comparision.

Also, its a matter of selection on God's part, as He foreknew Gen 25:25 & Obadiah16!

In reality, Esau represents Jacob in the flesh....and while God hates sin, he doesn't hate the flesh, only what comes from it!

Many lessons there

F2F
Encouragement well appreciated brother and correct you are-many lessons here.
J.
 
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face2face

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Encouragement well appreciated brother and correct you are-many lessons here.
J.
Deu 7:8

(8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu 10:15

(15) Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

In relation to Malachi these quotes really place God's Character in the foreground rather than dwelling on this subject of hatred.

After being brought out of captivity and rebuilding the walls of the city. This was the first of eight queries that they brought against God, in which they revealed their lack of knowledge and understanding. There attitude to God was “give us proof of your love”. They had forgotten past blessings and had no vision of the future.

Deu 32:28-29

(28) For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

(29) O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

F2F
 
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face2face

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@Johann it's actually rather sad that the Jews in Jesus day sought signs and in our later age many still persist with seeking signs.

The signs that are coming will not be those that people today seek.

I know you know this

F2F
 
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Johann

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@Johann it's actually rather sad that the Jews in Jesus day sought signs and in our later age many still persist with seeking signs.

The signs that are coming will not be those that people today seek.

I know you know this

F2F
Matthew 12:39 (NKJV):
"But He answered and said to them, 'An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.'"

John 4:48 (NKJV):
"Then Jesus said to him, 'Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.'"

1 Corinthians 1:22 (NKJV):
"For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom.
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is nonsense to those who are in the process of being destroyed, but it is the power of God to those who are in the process of being saved.
1Co 1:19 For the Scripture says: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the learning of the learned."
1Co 1:20 So where is your philosopher? Where is your man of letters? Where is your logician of this age? Has not God shown up the nonsense of the world's wisdom?
1Co 1:21 For since in accordance with the wisdom of God the world had never in reality, by means of its wisdom, come to know God, God chose through the nonsense of the message proclaimed, to save the people who put their faith in Him.
1Co 1:22 While Jews are demanding spectacular signs and Greeks are searching for philosophy,
1Co 1:23 we are preaching the Christ who was crucified -- a message that is a trap-stick to the Jews and nonsense to the Greeks,
1Co 1:24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks alike, the Christ who is God's power and God's wisdom.
1Co 1:25 It is so, because God's nonsense is wiser than men's wisdom, and God's weakness is mightier than men's might.
1Co 1:26 For consider, brothers, the way God called you; that not many of you, in accordance with human standards, were wise, not many influential, not many of high birth.
1Co 1:27 Just the opposite: God chose what the world calls foolish to put the wise to shame, what the world calls weak to put the strong to shame,
1Co 1:28 what the world calls of low degree, yea, what it counts as nothing and what it thinks does not exist, God chose to put a stop to what it thinks exists,
1Co 1:29 so that no mortal man might ever boast in the presence of God.
1Co 1:30 So you owe it all to Him through union with Christ Jesus, whom God has made our wisdom, our means of right standing, our consecration, and our redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that, as the Scripture says, "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

Correct you are @F2F
J.
 
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Lambano

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Now that we have the context-Is God continually in a state of "hating" the sons of disobedience?

@Lambano I would appreciate a response from you.
That question deserves more thought than just a quick response.

"Anger as a state of mind". Analyzing another's state of mind is guesswork at best, especially One who has said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts."

Desire mixed with grief. Hmm. Hatred involves anger, but hatred is more than anger. I recall a quote: "He doesn't know how to hate. I know how to hate." - Billy Martin. (Why an American baseball manager should come to mind in a theological discussion, I can't explain.) When you hate, you want to hurt. You want to hurt the object of your hatred for the sake of hurting them, not for the sake of correcting their attitudes and behavior. "Grief mixed with desire". I think that's the difference, or at least part of it.

I do not believe that God is continually in a state of "hating" the "sons of disobedience", but that the "why" of it is still inadequate.
 

PGS11

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Preaching how God hates I have seen it all now.That's certainly not the Gospel of Jesus Christ his Gospel is a Gospel of hope were all can be saved if they listen to the word of God and believe.Truth is anyone can be saved at any point in their lives right up to death.Some of the Christian Saints were horrible sinners before they converted some even questioned whether they were saved right till the last moment.

God has said "My ways are not your ways My thoughts are not your thoughts" No one should speak for God.
 
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Johann

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That question deserves more thought than just a quick response.

"Anger as a state of mind". Analyzing another's state of mind is guesswork at best, especially One who has said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts."

Desire mixed with grief. Hmm. Hatred involves anger, but hatred is more than anger. I recall a quote: "He doesn't know how to hate. I know how to hate." - Billy Martin. (Why an American baseball manager should come to mind in a theological discussion, I can't explain.) When you hate, you want to hurt. You want to hurt the object of your hatred for the sake of hurting them, not for the sake of correcting their attitudes and behavior. "Grief mixed with desire". I think that's the difference, or at least part of it.

I do not believe that God is continually in a state of "hating" the "sons of disobedience", but that the "why" of it is still inadequate.
Why would you say the "why" of it is still inadequate?
We can go to Rom.3 and right back to the Genesis account-right?
J.
 

Lambano

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Why would you say the "why" of it is still inadequate?
I say that because my understanding of God and His motivations is necessarily limited. Very limited.

I also note that the OP holds to the systematic theology of the Reformers, so from that perspective, how can one NOT say that God desired to hurt the non-elect from the Foundation of the World? God's anger at them cannot be considered punitive or reformative or out of grief in that system (with its inherent tension between God's sovereignty, Total Depravity and Man's responsibility) because the reprobate will not and indeed cannot repent. Quite logically, the OP must believe that God hated the non-elect from Eternity Past to Eternity Future. And the "evil", "wicked", "unrighteous", and "ungrateful" "sinners" Jesus said His Father loves, logically has to refer to some other group.

This is one of the major reasons why I have to reject that system.
 
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Johann

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I say that because my understanding of God and His motivations is necessarily limited. Very limited.

I also note that the OP holds to the systematic theology of the Reformers, so from that perspective, how can one NOT say that God desired to hurt the non-elect from the Foundation of the World? God's anger at them cannot be considered punitive or reformative or out of grief in that system (with its inherent tension between God's sovereignty, Total Depravity and Man's responsibility) because the reprobate will not and indeed cannot repent. Quite logically, the OP must believe that God hated the non-elect from Eternity Past to Eternity Future. And the "evil", "unrighteous", and "ungrateful" "sinners" Jesus said His Father loves, logically has to refer to some other group.

This is one of the major reasons why I have to reject that system.
So is mine brother and glad you have rejected the "system"
There is NO truth to be found there I'm afraid to say since I live with a brother IN that system..
Correct in saying that our understanding of Abba is very, very limited-If God can fit in my three pound brain He is NOT worthy of worship.
You are a very heteron brother since our last exchange years ago and sense you maturity and humbleness in Messiah Yeshua, sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Stay anchored in Christ Jesus and feel free to correct errors on my side.
Shalom to you and family.

Job 11:7 (NKJV):
"Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty?"

Isaiah 40:28 (NKJV):
"Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable."

1 Corinthians 2:11 (NKJV):
"For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."

Romans 11:33 (NKJV):
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!"

John 1:18 (NKJV):

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."


Later @Lambano.
Johann.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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God HATES the lost--your words and correct me if I'm wrong, you believe in T.U.L.I.P.-don't you?
I do believe in TULIP and yes god does hate the lost. From John 3:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 9:

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

god knows who are His and who will be His. we do not.
 
J

Johann

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I do believe in TULIP and yes god does hate the lost. From John 3:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 9:

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

god knows who are His and who will be His. we do not.
Nope-look up Orge. In none of these isolated verses will you find that God HATES those in disobedience or even the "vessels" and as a true Calvinist you present quotes out of context-[guess the whole of Israel is out of the picture and Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart first] to fit YOUR narrative.
I admit-we all have our biases and presupps but I reject T.U.L.I.P.

Shalom.
J.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Nope-look up Orge. In none of these isolated verses will you find that God HATES those in disobedience or even the "vessels" and as a true Calvinist you present quotes out of context-[guess the whole of Israel is out of the picture and Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart first] to fit YOUR narrative.
I admit-we all have our biases and presupps but I reject T.U.L.I.P.

Shalom.
J.




ὀργή​

Transliteration
orgē (Key)
Pronunciation
or-gay'


KJV Translation Count — Total: 36x
The KJV translates Strong's G3709 in the following manner: wrath (31x), anger (3x), vengeance (1x), indignation (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
  2. movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
  3. anger, wrath, indignation
  4. anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
    1. of punishments inflicted by magistrates

Yes? It is Gods wrath and indignation! That is not a invitation to a tea and crumpets party.

YOu are free to reject TULIP but can you defend your Amenian belief biblically?

In the argument with TULIP the only alternative is the five points of Jacob Armenius!