For free will believers out there

[Wrangler]

So yu accept thatr there are multiple methods of salvation.

1. For babies because they haven't committed an act of sin. so they are saved, then lost as soon as they choose to sin.

2. For those who never heard the gospel- God has another method to save them! (Why send missionaries out if God can save them apart from the gospel?)

3. Then I guess for those who live where the gospel is available, they have to believe onn Jesus.

From a certain POV, that is correct. However, in each case the grace of Jesus is the sole mechanism for salvation, IMO. He is the Savior. This means, he is the one doing the saving.

I look at it like this. Humanity is damned, by default. Now, on Judgment Day, Jesus asks what is our get out of hell card. He is only accepting the 3 cards above.

For me, it is not about Salvation for I am already saved. It is about serving my lord, the great honor of my life, that I wish to give to others.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The point is that, after death comes judgment, and that Jesus did not preach to people past their earthly life.

Except when He did!

As it says in Peter.
1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Of course He did not. He would not go against the truth written in Hebrews 9:27.

The passage you quoted does not say that. Read the passage and context carefully.

Tong
R2303

 

[Truther]

He said “My God”. So, yes.

Tong
R2291

Okay, so Jesus has a God, yet he is God.

Now we have 2 God's.

Or....

Jesus is his God to us...by default.

 

[Truther]

Clarification: What do you mean by “humble God”?

Tong
R2292

The incarnationist teaches that the 2nd person or that God became a man, then humbled Himself per Phil 2.

Yes, they teach that.

A humble/almighty God is like a fat/skinny man...nonsense.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

He was the God-man. REmember god is His Father and Mary His Mother! Adam was made Jesus was procreated by God and woman. that makes HImmore than human by nature.

Just like when the angels in Genesis 6 had children with women. They were a hybrid race of human/angel.

First of all God creates and man procreates
The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) Yet this is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”—1Jo 4:9.

Jesus many times referred to himself as “the Son of man,” using an expression that occurs about 80 times in the Gospels. This expression indicates that he was fully human and not God incarnate. How did God’s only-begotten Son come to be born as a human? By means of holy spirit, Jehovah transferred his Son’s life to the womb of the Jewish virgin Mary, causing conception to take place. As a result, Jesus was born sinless and perfect.—Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35; John 8:46.

 

[Truther]

Jesus is not any kind of God. Phil 2:5 says he is in the form of God, which applies to us all per GE 1:26, all of us are in the likeness (form) of God. Having said that, the man Jesus was humble. The verse below clearly says God raised this man from the dead. (It does not say God incarnate raised himself because God is not man.).

31 He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (Voice)

Correct.

However, Jesus was MADE God after he was resurrected by his God from the dead.

He was made the express image of his invisible God via the Col 2:9 effect on his resurrected body.

 

[Wrangler]

Correct.

However, Jesus was MADE God after he was resurrected by his God from the dead.

No. Jesus is no kind of God. The resurrected Jesus talked about going to his God, the only God, in John 20:17 and Revelations 3.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The point is as I said, that all those who are “in Adam” are all those whom God had created in him, those born and who will be born of him.

Ok. We were saying the same thing in different ways. I just wanted to make sure.

Okay.

Tong
R2304

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<but where we differ is you believe immortality and eternal life to be the same thing and I don't.>>>

Nobody says they are the same. Though I would say they are related.

Well no matter how much you say it's not so. Genesis 2:16,17 proves that God created Adam to live forever and the only way that wouldn't happen is if he disobeyed God concerning the command about the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Yes, I am quite aware of that.

Yes we could say that. However, no matter how many times you repeat that and how many times you insist that, it does not take away the difference between created to live forever and created with eternal life.

Tong
R2305

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
He said “My God”. So, yes.

Okay, so Jesus has a God, yet he is God.

Now we have 2 God's.

Or....

Jesus is his God to us...by default.

<<<so Jesus has a God, yet he is God.>>>

Yes Jesus has a God, Him who sent Him. He was sent by God from heaven by way of incarnation, and He knows that. So He became a man, begotten of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Incarnated as a man, and in his humanity, God is His Father and His God. But because He is God, His incarnation does not make Him any less than being God, if you know the nature of God.

<<<Now we have 2 God's.>>>

No. That is not the case. For the truth is that there is no God formed by that.

<<<Jesus is his God to us...by default.>>>

No. I would say it this way: Jesus is God incarnate having the form and nature of man.

Tong
R2306

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
He said “My God”. So, yes.

The incarnationist teaches that the 2nd person or that God became a man, then humbled Himself per Phil 2.

Yes, they teach that.

A humble/almighty God is like a fat/skinny man...nonsense.

The humility spoken in Phil. 2 is that concerning the mind. Paul admonish them to have like mind of Jesus, humble and not proud.

Tong
R2307

 

[Brakelite]

Are you really trying to convince me that you are that benighted? You are convincing me!

But we are talking about teh church age where Jesus commanded the gospel to go out in order for men to be saved.

But you know what I am talking about and are just being intentionally murky to cloud the issue.

You started off the thread by referring to personal insults in a previous one whichi presumed you wanted to avoid. Yet here you are, post number 12, doing precisely that.
Sad.

 

[Tong2020]

First of all God creates and man procreates
The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) Yet this is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”—1Jo 4:9.

Jesus many times referred to himself as “the Son of man,” using an expression that occurs about 80 times in the Gospels. This expression indicates that he was fully human and not God incarnate. How did God’s only-begotten Son come to be born as a human? By means of holy spirit, Jehovah transferred his Son’s life to the womb of the Jewish virgin Mary, causing conception to take place. As a result, Jesus was born sinless and perfect.—Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35; John 8:46.

<<<God creates and man procreates>>>

According to you perhaps. But according to scriptures, God not only created, but also procreated, that is, have begotten.

By the way, what is your idea of God creating? What is your idea of procreating?

<<<At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”>>>

More than described as the begotten Son of God, but declared to be the Son of God, and in reality the Son of God.

However, He is not only the Son of God, but also the Son of man.

Interestingly you recognize and acknowledge that Jesus had a pre-human existence. But I wonder if you know the implication of that.

Tong
R2308

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes, I am quite aware of that.

Yes we could say that. However, no matter how many times you repeat that and how many times you insist that, it does not take away the difference between created to live forever and created with eternal life.

Tong
R2305

Then you really don't know the meaning of words. The word, "forever" means for all eternity. So let's not quibble over words.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, I am quite aware of that.

Yes we could say that. However, no matter how many times you repeat that and how many times you insist that, it does not take away the difference between created to live forever and created with eternal life.

Then you really don't know the meaning of words. The word, "forever" means for all eternity. So let's not quibble over words.

“ created to live forever” indicates an intention, while “created with eternal life” isn’t an intention but a fact. The former is a potential but the latter is reality. Do you see the difference now?

Tong
R2310

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

<<<God creates and man procreates>>>

According to you perhaps. But according to scriptures, God not only created, but also procreated, that is, have begotten.

By the way, what is your idea of God creating? What is your idea of procreating?

<<<At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”>>>

More than described as the begotten Son of God, but declared to be the Son of God, and in reality the Son of God.

However, He is not only the Son of God, but also the Son of man.

Interestingly you recognize and acknowledge that Jesus had a pre-human existence. But I wonder if you know the implication of that.

Tong
R2308

I don't believe you know the implications of the Only Begotten Son of God having a pre-human existence.
Man begets by procreation, God begets by creating. In the beginning The Word, who is the Only Begotten Son of God was with God. John 1:1 So when the scriptures say, the Word became flesh at John 1:14 the Only Begotten Son of God became human like the first man Adam before he sinned.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<God creates and man procreates>>>

According to you perhaps. But according to scriptures, God not only created, but also procreated, that is, have begotten.

By the way, what is your idea of God creating? What is your idea of procreating?

<<<At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”>>>

More than described as the begotten Son of God, but declared to be the Son of God, and in reality the Son of God.

However, He is not only the Son of God, but also the Son of man.

Interestingly you recognize and acknowledge that Jesus had a pre-human existence. But I wonder if you know the implication of that.

I don't believe you know the implications of the Only Begotten Son of God having a pre-human existence.
Man begets by procreation, God begets by creating. In the beginning The Word, who is the Only Begotten Son of God was with God. John 1:1 So when the scriptures say, the Word became flesh at John 1:14 the Only Begotten Son of God became human like the first man Adam before he sinned.

<<<Man begets by procreation, God begets by creating.>>>

Apparently, you have a different concept of what to beget means.

And by the way, I do know about Jesus’ pre-existence and what that implies, when one knows what scriptures says about Jesus Christ and relates them to that.

Tong
R2312

 

[Truther]

No. Jesus is no kind of God. The resurrected Jesus talked about going to his God, the only God, in John 20:17 and Revelations 3.

Thomas declared Jesus to be God when he saw Him after His resurrection.

You doubt Thomas.

 

[Truther]

<<<so Jesus has a God, yet he is God.>>>

Yes Jesus has a God, Him who sent Him. He was sent by God from heaven by way of incarnation, and He knows that. So He became a man, begotten of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Incarnated as a man, and in his humanity, God is His Father and His God. But because He is God, His incarnation does not make Him any less than being God, if you know the nature of God.

<<<Now we have 2 God's.>>>

No. That is not the case. For the truth is that there is no God formed by that.

<<<Jesus is his God to us...by default.>>>

No. I would say it this way: Jesus is God incarnate having the form and nature of man.

Tong
R2306

God has the nature of man?

Peter says we are partaker of God's divine nature.

You teach God swapped natures with man.(I will take your nature and you take Mine).

Not cool.

 

[Truther]

The humility spoken in Phil. 2 is that concerning the mind. Paul admonish them to have like mind of Jesus, humble and not proud.

Tong
R2307

The humility of the almighty, perfect, Spirit God?