That raises an interesting question. (or two)
- What does it mean to "perish without Torah" - compared to...
- What does it mean to "be judged by Torah"
How does perishing without Torah effect one's judgement?
Not held accountable to Torah?
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Fear Rules Christianity - True or False?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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- What does it mean to "perish without Torah" - compared to...
- What does it mean to "be judged by Torah"
How does perishing without Torah effect one's judgement?
Not held accountable to Torah?
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It would be like walking across a rope bridge. Should one hold on tight to the ropes? Why? Do we care if we fall to our deaths in the chasm below? Of course we do. So then the fear of the Lord is meant to preserve us from a careless attitude that leads to us going astray.
But the fear has a purpose. It's not the be all and end all of the Christian walk. We have a sin nature that needs to be crucified in order to walk in eternal life. As long as we have an active outer man, we need to be careful to not put any trust in it.
The opposite of fear of the Lord would be smugness, or a religious certainty. Pride goes before a fall. But God gives grace to the weak and humble. So then which one encourages that weakness and humility? Pride? No...but the fear of the Lord.
We fear because God judges according to truth and righteousness. There are no favourites with God. If we are smug and careless, then we will suffer the consequences. So we are to pay close attention to what God expects from us IF we want to continue into everlasting life. If we don't care about God or pleasing Him we can follow our whims and be smug in that.
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Let's give it a go and prayerfully pray the Holy Spirit would put His stamp of approval upon this brother--
2For as many as have [omit have] sinned without law shall [will] also perish without law; and as many as have [omit have] sinned in [under] the law shall13[will] be judged by the law; [.] (For not the hearers of the law6 [of law] are just [righteous] before God, but the doers of the law [of law] shall [will] 14 be justified [declared righteous]. For when [whenever] the [omit the]7 Gentiles, which have not the law [Gentiles having no law, ἔθνη τὰ μη νόμον ἔχοντα], do8 by nature the things contained in the law [the things of the law, τὰ τοῦ νόμου, i.e., the things pertaining to, or required by, the law], these, having not the law [not having15(the) law, νόμον μὴ ἔχοντες],9 are a law unto [to] themselves: Which [Who] shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) [their thoughts between one another, oralternately, μετἁξὺ ἀλλήλων,accusing or also, ἤ καὶ, excusing.]10 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by [through] Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Verse 12:
"Ὅσοι γὰρ ἀνόμως ἥμαρτον, ἀνόμως καὶ ἀπολοῦνται· καὶ ὅσοι ἐν νόμῳ ἥμαρτον, διὰ νόμου κριθήσονται."
"For as many as have sinned without law (ἀνόμως) will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law (ἐν νόμῳ) will be judged by the law."
Verse 13:
"οὐ γὰρ οἱ ἀκροαταὶ νόμου δίκαιοι παρὰ τῷ Θεῷ, ἀλλ’ οἱ ποιηταὶ νόμου δικαιωθήσονται."
"For not the hearers of the law (ἀκροαταὶ νόμου) are righteous before God, but the doers of the law (ποιηταὶ νόμου) will be justified."
Exegetical Breakdown:
Verse 12:
Paul introduces the idea of judgment for both Jews and Gentiles based on their relationship with the law (νόμος). The phrase "ἀνόμως" (anomos), meaning "without law," refers to the Gentiles who do not possess the written Torah (the Mosaic Law). They will be judged not by the Torah, but by a standard that still acknowledges their moral failures. The Jews, however, "ἐν νόμῳ" (en nomō), meaning "under the law," will be judged by the Torah.
Without law, ἀνόμως; that is, without the knowledge and norm of the Mosaic law (comp. Rom_5:13)—that is, without a definite consciousness of definite transgression (1Co_9:21). [Νόμος and ἀνόμως throughout here refer to the written or revealed law of Moses, as the expressed will of God concerning our moral conduct. The heathen are called ἄνομοι, not absolutely—for they have the unwritten law of conscience—but as distinguished from the Jews, who were ὑπὸνόμον. ἀνὅμως therefore is equivalent to χωρὶςνόμου.—P. S.]
Gentiles: Judged without the written law (Torah), implying some internal law or moral conscience.
Jews: Judged by the Torah, which they have been given and know.
Paul is clearly referring to the Torah as the written law governing the Jewish people, while hinting that Gentiles will still be held accountable according to a different law, likely the law of conscience.
Verse 13:
This verse emphasizes that it is not merely the hearers of the law (Jews who hear the Torah) who are justified but the doers. Paul introduces the idea that righteousness (δικαιόω, dikaioō) comes through obedience, not just possession of the law. This suggests that both Jews and Gentiles are expected to follow an inner moral law, although for Jews, this aligns with the Torah.
The phrase "οἱ ποιηταὶ νόμου" (hoi poiētai nomou), meaning "doers of the law," shows the importance of active obedience, which for the Jews directly relates to the Torah, but for Gentiles likely refers to their moral conscience (as explored in v.14-15).
Romans 2:14-15 (Greek):
Verse 14:
"Ὅταν γὰρ ἔθνη τὰ μὴ νόμον ἔχοντα φύσει τὰ τοῦ νόμου ποιῶσιν, οὗτοι νόμον μὴ ἔχοντες ἑαυτοῖς εἰσιν νόμος·"
"For when Gentiles, who do not have the law (μὴ νόμον ἔχοντα), by nature (φύσει) do the things in the law (τὰ τοῦ νόμου), these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves (νόμον εἰσιν ἑαυτοῖς)."
Verse 15:
"οἵτινες ἐνδείκνυνται τὸ ἔργον τοῦ νόμου γραπτὸν ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις αὐτῶν, συμπαρτυρούσης αὐτῶν τῆς συνειδήσεως καὶ μεταξὺ ἀλλήλων τῶν λογισμῶν κατηγορούντων ἢ καὶ ἀπολογουμένων."
"Who show the work of the law written in their hearts (γραπτὸν ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις αὐτῶν), their conscience (συνείδησις) also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or excusing them."
Exegetical Breakdown:
Verse 14:
Paul introduces the idea that Gentiles who do not have the written Torah (νόμος) can, by nature (φύσει), do what the law requires. This implies a universal moral law, an internal code, which aligns with the basic tenets of the Torah. The Gentiles are said to be "a law unto themselves" (νόμον εἰσιν ἑαυτοῖς). This phrase suggests that their actions reflect an inherent understanding of right and wrong, even without the written code. Here, Paul is pointing to the existence of a moral law of conscience that operates in Gentiles in parallel to the Torah for Jews.
"φύσει" (by nature): Points to an inherent moral sense that aligns with the law, even in those who do not have the Torah.
"νόμον μὴ ἔχοντες" (not having the law): Emphasizes that this is a moral awareness that exists without the written code (Torah), likely referring to the conscience.
Verse 15:
Paul clarifies that this law of conscience is evidenced in the work of the law being written in the hearts of Gentiles. This echoes the prophetic promise of Jeremiah 31:33, where God speaks of writing His law on the hearts of His people. The Greek word for conscience (συνείδησις), combined with "their thoughts" (λογισμοί), shows that the Gentiles' moral actions are governed by their internal moral compass, which either accuses or excuses them. This mirrors the function of the Torah for the Jews, though it operates as an internal law rather than an external code.
Gentiles -- - All who were not Jews.
which have not the law -- Who have net a revelation, or the written word of God. In the Greek the article is omitted, “who have not law,” that is, any revealed law.
do by nature -- NASB "instinctively" The expression means clearly by the light of conscience and reason.
contained in the law -- The things which the Law requires.
are a law to themselves -- Although God did not give the law to the Gentiles, some of them do what God requires in the law. This suggests that people have a natural moral sense or conscience. - FSB
Romans 2:12-13: Paul distinguishes between Gentiles who do not have the Torah and will be judged by their moral conscience, and Jews who will be judged by the Torah.
Romans 2:14-15: He argues that Gentiles, by nature, demonstrate a moral law written on their hearts, akin to the Torah for Jews. Their conscience serves as their guide and judge, similar to how the Torah functions for the Jews.
Paul's overall argument shows that moral accountability exists universally, whether through the Torah for Jews or through conscience for Gentiles, and both are ultimately judged by God according to their response to this law.
Lange's commentary is an excellent resource, and I highly recommend using reputable, exegetical sources for deeper study. However, it seems that most here prefer to rely on emotional experiences rather than careful analysis.
If you agree with this perspective, feel free to tag me anytime @Lambano , but I’m not interested in engaging in endless debates, circular reasoning, or personal attacks.
Shalom
J.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
This verse supports the annihilist position. The word used is ἀπόλλυμι. It means "to perish, to be destroyed". It is, of course, best known for its use in John 3:16.
The meaning is pretty straight forward. If a Gentile sins, he perishes. Period. No judgment. No part in the Age to Come.
If a Jew sins, his part in the Age to Come will be judged by Torah. This is consistent with rabbinical thought.
Wow, that seems like a pretty hopeless conclusion.
The gentile will sin, of course. = incineration?
The Jew will break Torah. = incineration?
No good news here.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
If you follow the flow of Paul's thought in Romans, Chapter 1 verse 18 - Chapter 3 verse 20 is about the bad news. The good news starts at Chapter 3 verse 21.
The verse in Romans 2:14-16 indicates the conscience defending the person at the judgment. (per Paul's gospel)
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
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If we truly fear God, we should avoid him at all cost. - True, or false?
Survival might require flying under the radar?
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Survival might require flying under the radar?
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There are Christians who live terrified of God.
Which isn't what God teaches in his word.
Shocking isn't it?
Again... "much is given, much is required". So then when less is given what should we conclude? Why not leave it in God capable and fair hands? Where is that narrow Way and where is that very wide way? What man knows them so well?
Lambano
Well-Known Member
You probably will want to hang out on the other side of Heaven from Him. Just so you don't run into each other.
I remember thinking something like that. What the hell kind of faith is that?
Right. If God wants us to seek His face, he needs to be approachable.
No one wants to walk into a blazing inferno. Where's the love?
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Maybe He's trying to find that sweet spot between being approachable and being a pushover. Who knows?
The blazing inferno of God only burns up the evil. He cleanses and embraces the righteous.
| Heb 12:29 | For our God is a consuming fire. |
| 1jo 4:8 | He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. |
| Da 3:22 | Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. |
| Da 3:25 | He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. |
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's for true believers, but for lifelong unbelievers, it's a just expression of God's justice, sadly to them.
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