Fear God or Presume acceptance

[Candidus]

There is a third situation that I think is missed

If we believe and sacrifice to live holy lives, but our belief was not saving faith. We not only lost eternity, but we lost so much here on earth

That is why Jesus warned, Just doing things in his name is not enough.. True faith is what is required.. Many will come. And he will say depart. HE NEVER KNEW THEM

Certainly the third option exists. When Jesus says "I never knew them" I think that can apply two ways. First would be the person that is working their way to heaven by their own merit, but has not true faith in Jesus, and the person who claims faith in Christ, but has not been Born-Again or Regenerate. The danger flows both ways.

True faith works; this is why we are told Mathew 7: 17-20.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

 

[Willie T]

Maybe someone reading this will find these words helpful:

We need to make some important distinctions about the biblical meaning of “fearing” God. These distinctions can be helpful, but they can also be a little dangerous. When Luther struggled with that, he made this distinction, which has since become somewhat famous: He distinguished between what he called a servile fear and a filial fear.

The servile fear is a kind of fear that a prisoner in a torture chamber has for his tormentor, the jailer, or the executioner. It’s that kind of dreadful anxiety in which someone is frightened by the clear and present danger that is represented by another person. Or it’s the kind of fear that a slave would have at the hands of a malicious master who would come with the whip and torment the slave. Servile refers to a posture of servitude toward a malevolent owner.

Luther distinguished between that and what he called filial fear, drawing from the Latin concept from which we get the idea of family. It refers to the fear that a child has for his father. In this regard, Luther is thinking of a child who has tremendous respect and love for his father or mother and who dearly wants to please them. He has a fear or an anxiety of offending the one he loves, not because he’s afraid of torture or even of punishment, but rather because he’s afraid of displeasing the one who is, in that child’s world, the source of security and love.

I think this distinction is helpful because the basic meaning of fearing the Lord that we read about in Deuteronomy is also in the Wisdom Literature, where we’re told that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” The focus here is on a sense of awe and respect for the majesty of God. That’s often lacking in contemporary evangelical Christianity. We get very flippant and cavalier with God, as if we had a casual relationship with the Father. We are invited to call Him Abba, Father, and to have the personal intimacy promised to us, but still we’re not to be flippant with God. We’re always to maintain a healthy respect and adoration for Him.

One last point: If we really have a healthy adoration for God, we still should have an element of the knowledge that God can be frightening. “It is a frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:31). As sinful people, we have every reason to fear God’s judgment; it is part of our motivation to be reconciled with God..... But is it a reason to live fearful of Him?

 

[Cooper]

When did God promise that He would protect us from all ills.
He promised people would hate and kill us, as they hated Him and killed all the messengers of old. Listen to Paul

20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:20-21

Paul calls us to be afraid of falling into unbelief because we will not be spared.
This is so clear, why do so many live in the delusion no fear is something of God.

Just keep trusting. Proverbs 3:5-6.
.

 

[Candidus]

Fellowship is NOT the same as sonship

I can be my fathers son yet have no fellowship with him

I am STILL my fathers son

Jut saying

Being presently cleansed from sin is son-ship; not being presently cleansed from sin is not son-ship.

I do not agree that God is somehow bound to anthropomorphisms that we seek around us.

When the Prodigal Son left and sinned away his inheritance, he was a "son" but on his return his father says, "for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again: he was lost, and has been found." As far as the father was concerned, this wayward son was dead to him. The Scripture tells us that the son came to life again. The son was not raised from the dead, so he was not physically dead and brought back to life. The Prodigal son was once alive spiritually and relationally, died, and came back to life again. He was lost spiritually and physically, and was found both physically and spiritually. "Son-ship" would have availed him nothing from the Father is he never came back.

Of this son we are told that he was not only dead, but that he was also lost! "for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again: he was lost, and has been found." Can you be "lost" and "dead" and be a son? You can be "called" a son... a dead lost son.

In the story of the Rich man and Lazarus, the rich man, a Jew, was in eternal torment for his sin regardless of this so-called birthright. "Father Abraham" could not save him. Sin brought him to this place of torment. The Rich man’s assurance was as unfaltering as any Eternal Securists' because he was one of God’s chosen people! He thought by birthright, that salvation was sure. On Judgment Day, your status of "son" will not avail you any privilege any more than being a "son" did for the rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. In hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment.....he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me...but Abraham said, Son, remember...

 

[Cooper]

Maybe someone reading this will find these words helpful:

We need to make some important distinctions about the biblical meaning of “fearing” God. These distinctions can be helpful, but they can also be a little dangerous. When Luther struggled with that, he made this distinction, which has since become somewhat famous: He distinguished between what he called a servile fear and a filial fear.

The servile fear is a kind of fear that a prisoner in a torture chamber has for his tormentor, the jailer, or the executioner. It’s that kind of dreadful anxiety in which someone is frightened by the clear and present danger that is represented by another person. Or it’s the kind of fear that a slave would have at the hands of a malicious master who would come with the whip and torment the slave. Servile refers to a posture of servitude toward a malevolent owner.

Luther distinguished between that and what he called filial fear, drawing from the Latin concept from which we get the idea of family. It refers to the fear that a child has for his father. In this regard, Luther is thinking of a child who has tremendous respect and love for his father or mother and who dearly wants to please them. He has a fear or an anxiety of offending the one he loves, not because he’s afraid of torture or even of punishment, but rather because he’s afraid of displeasing the one who is, in that child’s world, the source of security and love.

I think this distinction is helpful because the basic meaning of fearing the Lord that we read about in Deuteronomy is also in the Wisdom Literature, where we’re told that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” The focus here is on a sense of awe and respect for the majesty of God. That’s often lacking in contemporary evangelical Christianity. We get very flippant and cavalier with God, as if we had a casual relationship with the Father. We are invited to call Him Abba, Father, and to have the personal intimacy promised to us, but still we’re not to be flippant with God. We’re always to maintain a healthy respect and adoration for Him.

One last point: If we really have a healthy adoration for God, we still should have an element of the knowledge that God can be frightening. “It is a frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:31). As sinful people, we have every reason to fear God’s judgment; it is part of our motivation to be reconciled with God..... But is it a reason to live fearful of Him?

Are you talking about the God who cares for the sparrows and counts the number of hairs on our head?
.

 

[Cooper]

Being presently cleansed from sin is son-ship; not being presently cleansed from sin is not son-ship.

I do not agree that God is somehow bound to anthropomorphisms.

When the Prodigal Son left and sinned away his inheritance, but on his return his father says, "for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again: he was lost, and has been found." As far as the father was concerned, this wayward son was dead to him. The Scripture tells us that the son came to life again. The son was not raised from the dead, so he was not physically dead and brought back to life. The Prodigal son was once alive spiritually, died, and came back to life again. He was lost spiritually and physically, and was found both physically and spiritually. "Son-ship" would have availed him nothing from the Father is he never came back.

Of this son we are told that he was not only dead, but that he was also lost! "for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again: he was lost, and has been found." Can you be "lost" and "dead" and be a son? You can be "called" a son... a dead lost son.

The prodigal son had need to fear after he left the security of the Father, but what happened when he returned? Everything came right. The time to be afraid is when we leave the bosom of the Father.

 

[Willie T]

What is being "presently" cleansed? Does that mean that in perhaps seventeen minutes from now, you won't be?

 

[FollowHim]

God has already told us we can't "do it." He has told us we are all sinners. He has told us we will continue sinning.
Where does anyone get the idea that some practice is going to make them perfect? None of us stops screwing up until after we quit breathing. Are we to fear punishment from a God who knows we are flawed and will always be so in this life?

God has declared we are failures and need His help. But deeper still, we need Him to dwell in us, to be vessels of His Spirit, His love, His outworking to others. Now if one is saying a believer in this state cannot be holy, pure, clean in the end one is saying the vine is contaminated, defiled, we are not able to be His holy people. Now I grant you without transformation, coming to different emotional conclusions than the world has, we stand no chance, a house built up the sand, one storm and it will all fall down.

People often think the sermon on the mount is about tests on judgement day. I am sure Jesus is talking about nervous breakdowns, psychological collapses, panic attacks, trauma where there is no way out and a person gets shattered, and survives on emotionally altering drugs to dull the out of control mood swings.

Religion, going to church, doing our bit will not change our emotional framework and history but letting Jesus into our hearts to heal and put right the pain and hurts that we have long forgotten, places we no longer go because it is too upsetting, things will shift, and this new creation is capable of walking in love and truth. The emotional conclusion we need to come to is that Jesus is God, the Messiah, and we can trust Him to take us through our maze and turn it into a wide open plain where freedom reigns and we see things as they are and can breath relationships, and people like there are no issues, because before Him they have all been put straight. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

Maybe someone reading this will find these words helpful:

We need to make some important distinctions about the biblical meaning of “fearing” God. These distinctions can be helpful, but they can also be a little dangerous. When Luther struggled with that, he made this distinction, which has since become somewhat famous: He distinguished between what he called a servile fear and a filial fear.

The servile fear is a kind of fear that a prisoner in a torture chamber has for his tormentor, the jailer, or the executioner. It’s that kind of dreadful anxiety in which someone is frightened by the clear and present danger that is represented by another person. Or it’s the kind of fear that a slave would have at the hands of a malicious master who would come with the whip and torment the slave. Servile refers to a posture of servitude toward a malevolent owner.

Luther distinguished between that and what he called filial fear, drawing from the Latin concept from which we get the idea of family. It refers to the fear that a child has for his father. In this regard, Luther is thinking of a child who has tremendous respect and love for his father or mother and who dearly wants to please them. He has a fear or an anxiety of offending the one he loves, not because he’s afraid of torture or even of punishment, but rather because he’s afraid of displeasing the one who is, in that child’s world, the source of security and love.

I think this distinction is helpful because the basic meaning of fearing the Lord that we read about in Deuteronomy is also in the Wisdom Literature, where we’re told that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” The focus here is on a sense of awe and respect for the majesty of God. That’s often lacking in contemporary evangelical Christianity. We get very flippant and cavalier with God, as if we had a casual relationship with the Father. We are invited to call Him Abba, Father, and to have the personal intimacy promised to us, but still we’re not to be flippant with God. We’re always to maintain a healthy respect and adoration for Him.

One last point: If we really have a healthy adoration for God, we still should have an element of the knowledge that God can be frightening. “It is a frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:31). As sinful people, we have every reason to fear God’s judgment; it is part of our motivation to be reconciled with God..... But is it a reason to live fearful of Him?

I like this, because it is starting to understand our relationship and beginning to acknowledge our place.
I suspect many think they have started the path with Jesus, and they are just doodling in the back row because it is a safe place to be with believers who are none threatening and polite.

 

[Candidus]

What is being "presently" cleansed?

In 1 Jn. 1:6 it says, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Cleansing is the removal of sin. The emphasis on "presently" is that the condition of [present tense] cleansing is if we walk [present tense] in the light as he [Jesus] is in the light.

Can one not be cleansed presently and have the benefit of the Atonement?

What is being "presently" cleansed? Does that mean that in perhaps seventeen minutes from now, you won't be?

The way people talk argue about their lack of power not to sin, it may be closer to eight minutes.

 

[FollowHim]

Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you.
Acts 20:26

If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
Ezek 3:18

Paul feared God would hold him accountable if he did not exercise his gift to preach the gospel.
Now the motivation is a good one, that we have a responsibility before the Lord to share, to be open, to encourage, to be a light, because it has consequences for others, and without this light, darkness will continue to dominate.

Now the true sense is love for others, and knowing how to reach them.
For me that is a burden, how do we reach the lost, or even those in churches darkened by unbelief and a lack of love, where the term dead is too often used, which is brutal, but also maybe true. Where is our faith, where is our searching, were is our hearts call to know this love we have we can truly share.

 

[Candidus]

God has already told us we can't "do it." He has told us we are all sinners. He has told us we will continue sinning.
Where does anyone get the idea that some practice is going to make them perfect? None of us stops screwing up until after we quit breathing. Are we to fear punishment from a God who knows we are flawed and will always be so in this life?

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

God does not say to the Christian "You can't do it!" All Scripture assumes that you are not "still sinners" but reflect the Character of Christ in righteousness, a holy people. No passage in all of Scripture addressed to Christians says that we will continue sinning; but there are passages that say that if you continue sinning you are not a Christian.

Why would God demand perfection, encourage perfection, if He is not able to make men perfect?

 

[mjrhealth]

There is always fear of failure, because it is the failure that is the problem not the fear. The heart of repentance is in being prepared to take the risk before the King that He will forgive, because He might not.

If one has no fear, one is arrogant. We do not have the power or the audacity to expect the Lords response. Even when you know His response, He still has to give it. The difference here is in emotional conclusions. As soon as we stop discerning we are servants in the presence of the King, we can end up as some preachers have done, they are gods.

They have no fear, and so this foolishness is spoken, and people just take the pride and audacity as authentic reality.

People have no fear of Jesus and His word. So one interpretation of eternal life is one is secure in Christ no matter how one behaves, while Jesus tells parables of badly behaved servants rejected and cast out. And this is founded because there is no fear, only presumption. As some have said the focus is on them, their emotional stability fear or no fear, not who God actually is, and the wonder of the other, the eternal, which is so different from the world.

Now this God, the Lord of Lords strikes down prophets, His messengers when they get it wrong. There is no favouritism in His eyes. It is difficult to emphasis this too much, a prophet is told not to eat, another prophet says God changed things, he eats, God executes judgement and he is killed.

God is not safe as we regard safe, or limited as we define limited. He is gracious beyond that which I can imagine, but also when His heart has decided a course of action, people die who resist this way.

His people know this voice and His reality, so I just praise His name, that He works things through for His purposes, Amen, God bless you

Our security is in Gods will and finding it, not our emotional stability.

Fear is not faith, perfect live casts out all fear, if ine is farfull one is not walking in fauth,
God bless

 

[Willie T]

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

God does not say to the Christian "You can't do it!" All Scripture assumes that you are not "still sinners" but reflect the Character of Christ in righteousness, a holy people. No passage in all of Scripture addressed to Christians says that we will continue sinning; but there are passages that say that if you continue sinning you are not a Christian.

Why would God demand perfection, encourage perfection, if He is not able to make men perfect?

I like you Candidus, but you need to do a bit more study before I try to say that we are not told "with man it is impossible".

 

[Willie T]

I like you Candidus, but you need to do a bit more study before trying to say that we are not told "with man it is impossible."
I think it goes something like this:
"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." "And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." ... "And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

The same thing goes for us still sinning. Otherwise, we would not be told that "when we sin, we have an advocate in Jesus."

 

[FollowHim]

Fear is not faith, perfect live casts out all fear, if one is fearful one is not walking in faith,
God bless

Let me put this right. Some call fear evil. So Elijah when he ran from Jezebel after the Mount Camel was sinning in unbelief. In reality he was exhausted and just felt very alone, and God literally comforted Him, by showing him who He was. That is real empathy and grace.

So proportionate fear is part of life, it is not evil or wrong. Faith is a gift of God, by which we come to know who Jesus is and to learn to trust Him.
And what John is getting at is we should not fear God for punishment of sin, because we are walking in love and the Spirit and not in condemnation.
John explains what aspect of fear he is talking about.

 

[FollowHim]

I like you Candidus, but you need to do a bit more study before trying to say that we are not told "with man it is impossible."
I think it goes something like this:
"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." "And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." ... "And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

The same thing goes for us still sinning. Otherwise, we would not be told that "when we sin, we have an advocate in Jesus."

On this logic when we get in a plane we have a life vest because we will definitely crash so it proves there is no such thing as a safe flight, it always goes wrong. Or rather like a child learning to walk there are strong hands to hold you so you can get up again and walk on.
Giving up on walking is not an option, that is defeat and unbelief.

 

[Candidus]

I like you Candidus, but you need to do a bit more study before trying to say that we are not told "with man it is impossible."
I think it goes something like this:
"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." "And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." ... "And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

The same thing goes for us still sinning. Otherwise, we would not be told that "when we sin, we have an advocate in Jesus."

No passage says "When we sin we have an Advocate"

1 Jn 2:1 says, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" The Bible says... "I write these things ... that you SIN NOT! And... "IF (not when) any man sin, [Greek singular] we have an Advocate with the Father."

The fact that we need an Advocate proves that sins are not pre-paid, the verse prior the condition of forgiveness and subsequent cleansing of ALL sins is that we confess them, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Since John said this right before he said "If any man sin, we have an Advocate, it assumes that who he refers to are those that already had the sins forgiven, and they were already cleansed of ALL sin. It seems logical that he would then say to those that had ALL sin cleansed (if ALL sin is cleansed, what could be left?), that he would write "IF" and not "When" we sin; and why he referred to a single occurrence of sin and not a state of constant failure.

 

[mjrhealth]

Let me put this right. Some call fear evil. So Elijah when he ran from Jezebel after the Mount Camel was sinning in unbelief. In reality he was exhausted and just felt very alone, and God literally comforted Him, by showing him who He was. That is real empathy and grace.

So proportionate fear is part of life, it is not evil or wrong. Faith is a gift of God, by which we come to know who Jesus is and to learn to trust Him.
And what John is getting at is we should not fear God for punishment of sin, because we are walking in love and the Spirit and not in condemnation.
John explains what aspect of fear he is talking about.

Fear is only good when one one needs to run away, it is what start all the stuff inside you preparing the body to escape. Perfect love casts all all fear, when we walk in faith what is there to fear.

You cannot love what your fear, because there is no fear in Love.

 

[mjrhealth]

On this logic when we get in a plane we have a life vest because we will definitely crash so it proves there is no such thing as a safe flight, it always goes wrong. Or rather like a child learning to walk there are strong hands to hold you so you can get up again and walk on.
Giving up on walking is not an option, that is defeat and unbelief.

We have a God who's promises are Yes and Amen, who has given us salvation by Faith, what part of God can you see failing??