Fear God or Presume acceptance

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Episkopos

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Shame and dishonor,who do you think God is???


Which books have you read from the bible? (Don't say all of them)

2 Timothy 2:20-21
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Romans 9:21-23
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
 

Episkopos

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Oh now grace isnt free, it is no longer a gift, you have to earn it, now its all about you. Whatever happened to grace by faith, trodden underfoot by teh religious and bible scholars

Why am I not surprised, teh bible is not God,


Maybe you're not wanting to understand. Grace is a gift that we will be judged against. It's free. But we are still judged by what we do with it.

If you inherit money...for free (you seem obsessed with this free stuff) are you not still responsible for what you spend your money on?

But in your religion you abdicate all responsibility. But that isn't God's way. That's a criminal's lawless way.

Have you ever heard...depart from Me you workers of lawlessness. ????
 

mjrhealth

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Maybe you're not wanting to understand. Grace is a gift that we will be judged against. It's free. But we are still judged by what we do with it.

If you inherit money...for free (you seem obsessed with this free stuff) are you not still responsible for what you spend your money on?

But in your religion you abdicate all responsibility. But that isn't God's way. That's a criminal's lawless way.

Have you ever heard...depart from Me you workers of lawlessness. ????
Christ is not a religion. never has being never will be He is a friend to those who love Him and God is a father to His children, As for the bible, should I repeat myself, it is not God, and just because you read it and studied it doesnt make you right, We are supposed to agree with God, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit who are all in agreement, you read this bit in all your studies.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men. '

You talk about Him but it seems all your "knowledge" is from the bible. Its no wonder this went all askew.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Study it all your life you will still be wrong.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

God bless
 
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Candidus

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We first receive His life and Spirit by sheer mercy. Nobody deserves mercy or grace. But then what we do with it can either be good or bad. So we will all be judged at the end for what we have done for what we have been given.

The longer we have to live out the Christian life, the more fruit will be expected.

Observing the thread, some people are "sad to see so many people thinking their Salvation depends upon their own performance." What saddens me is that I see so many people that think that obedience and performance is optional; depending on a fruitless faith.

The Theological Pendulum swings from left to right, and back again. Few people in the debate would actually be at the extremes of the pendulum swing. But as Theological debate goes, when someone swings it far to one direction, the correcting is usually stated in an equal or further swing to the other side.

No one here believes anything other than that a Christian is saved by grace through faith. The disagreement is actually over what is "saving faith." In an effort to disclaim any merit for salvation, Luther gave the Antinomian error that we are saved by faith alone. No one is saved by "faith alone" in the sense that this is used. Faith alone is only found in one place in the entire Bible. In fact, the only faith that is alone in Scripture is a dead faith! James 2:17 says, "faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Many act as if we will be judged by faith alone. By what does Scripture say we will we be Judged? If you say we will be judged by our faith, then produce the passage that says so!

Jesus said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29.

Paul writes that God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing, seek for glory, and honor, and immortality; eternal life." Romans 2:6-7. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:9-10.

1 Peter 1:17 says that the Father, "without respect of persons, judgeth according to every man's work." Not "according to their faith alone."

Jesus, Paul, Peter and James are no "Works Salvationists" anymore than they are "Workless Antinomians." I would say that this is probably the same case as those that are accused on the Forum as "depending on their own performance."

Jesus says, “I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit." John 15:5. Jesus declares without any doubt, that if we are truly in Him, we cannot but help bear good fruit. "Faith" that brings forth bad fruit, or no fruit, is not a saving faith. The fruit of faith are the works that produced; they are the inevitable fruit that comes from being in the Vine. Fruit and salvation are inseparable. Bearing "Fruit" happens and no one is saved without works. The "works" or "fruit" are not
"depending on their own performance," but depending on the Vine; Jesus Christ.
This does not come by force, but God working in and through the believer. It becomes something the Believer does. This fruit is manifested in the Believer's works! This is what the Believer will be judged by according to Scripture.

The false dilemma that some create is that they assume that works are optional, and that if someone contends for a saving faith that works.... they are depending on their own merit! What merit can be appended to these works? For what merit is there in casting one’s whole self upon the mercy of God, trusting wholly in the work of Christ for every facet of their salvation, knowing that they are utterly and completely spiritually bankrupt on their own without Christ? There is no merit here, no robbing God of His glory, no depending on their own performance; just following the commands and promises of God, trusting in God’s work in and through us by the enabling of His grace.
What God commands He makes possible. What he enables by His grace is inevitable... if we are abiding in the Vine.
Performance is required. We will stand before God and be judged by our performance. Performance: God works it, God requires it, and God rewards it. He does not force it, and the Believer cannot do anything without God, yet the Believer does it, not for merit, but because they wish to please God.

The Theological Pendulum
is actually closer to the middle, because most here believe that God works in and through the Believer. The real swing from left to right in this debate is more about how much can God work in and through us that can be expected to be performed?
 
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mjrhealth

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"depending on their own performance," but depending on the Vine; Jesus Christ.

And yet He says

Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

So what works wil you do to save yourself, have you not read

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

judgment comes at teh second. this bit

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I hope we are in the first, seems most desire the second.

God bless
 

Candidus

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And yet He says

Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

So what works wil you do to save yourself, have you not read

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
judgment comes at teh second. this bit

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I hope we are in the first, seems most desire the second.

God bless

Jesus said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29.

Paul writes that God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing, seek for glory, and honor, and immortality; eternal life." Romans 2:6-7. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:9-10.

1 Peter 1:17 says that the Father, "without respect of persons, judgeth according to every man's work."

Every and All, means EVERY and ALL. The timing when this happens may be separate, yet EVERY ONE and ALL will have their works judged, and it will be the basis of their eternal fate.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Christ is not a religion. never has being never will be He is a friend to those who love Him and God is a father to His children, As for the bible, should I repeat myself, it is not God, and just because you read it and studied it doesnt make you right, We are supposed to agree with God, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit who are all in agreement, you read this bit in all your studies.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men. '

You talk about Him but it seems all your "knowledge" is from the bible. Its no wonder this went all askew.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Study it all your life you will still be wrong.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

God bless
Amen

we will be judged he is correct

gold silver precious stones (honor) wood hay straw (dishonor) but even those who have all their rewards burnt, as paul said, will still be saved, even as through Fire
 

Candidus

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There is no need to fear God if we live a righteous life, and being born out of love for Him, it comes naturally resulting in a peaceful life, but woe betide the wicked.

A form of Pascal's Wager :)

If say we believe and live holy lives, but we find in the end that it was not required; we lose nothing.

If we say we believe and do not live holy lives, and in the end we find out it was required; we lose everything.

Therefore, seeking for God to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and obeying Him is the most safe and secure position.
 

Cooper

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A form of Pascal's Wager :)

If say we believe and live holy lives, but we find in the end that it was not required; we lose nothing.

If we say we believe and do not live holy lives, and in the end we find out it was required; we lose everything.

Therefore, seeking for God to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and obeying Him is the most safe and secure position.
You are right of course. I was assuming those who seek to live a life pleasing to God by following the teaching of the Good Shepherd had already accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, and therefore were washed in the blood of the Lamb.
.
 
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Candidus

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Amen

we will be judged he is correct

gold silver precious stones (honor) wood hay straw (dishonor) but even those who have all their rewards burnt, as paul said, will still be saved, even as through Fire

The context of gold, silver, precious stones vs. wood, hay and straw is not about sin and righteousness, but what is worthy of a reward and what is not. The context is Preachers and their motive. The competitive are not condemned by Paul, but told that they already have their reward, and it will be of no value in the future. Notice that these Preachers labored and worked. They were not idol and fruitless, but there is every indication that although these Pastors built, they did not always build well, and were thus going to suffer loss. Jesus points out in Matthew 6:1-20 that if we do our good works to be seen of men, we will only get the praise of men, and not of God. These works are "good" but do not count before God because the motive was not the glory of God, but of men.

It is not a passage about sifting out righteousness and sins. To apply this to sinful living and the average Christian is to wrench it from its context. If you want it to apply to ALL and EVERYONE, the greater principle may allow us to apply this to Christians today that labor and build and in doing so, continue in the faith.
 

Eternally Grateful

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There is a third situation that I think is missed

If we believe and sacrifice to live holy lives, but our belief was not saving faith. We not only lost eternity, but we lost so much here on earth

That is why Jesus warned, Just doing things in his name is not enough.. True faith is what is required.. Many will come. And he will say depart. HE NEVER KNEW THEM
 

Cooper

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It is not a passage about sifting out righteousness and sins. To apply this to sinful living and the average Christian is to wrench it from its context. If you want it to apply to ALL and EVERYONE, the greater principle may allow us to apply this to Christians today that labor and build and in doing so, continue in the faith.

What you say in bold is so important. Heaven forbid that we should backslide.
.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Rewards are things we work for. Things we earn

Gold silver precious stone are rewards for bearing fruit.

Wood hay and straw are for bearing no or or fruit..
 
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FollowHim

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I guess I will never understand being positively motivated by fear.

If you know rock climbing, this is an example of being motivated by fear.
The fear is about falling, being very careful to spread your weight correctly between your hands and legs, and checking the safety of the next hold you need to do.

Without the fear, you will get hurt and possibly die.
I watched a free climber, a guy who uses no ropes and takes absurd risks, which any sane person would back off from. Turns out they have a low fear response, and also massive climbing skills, one of the best in the world.

The whole hobby is grounded on fear and the challenge.
Quite a lot of jobs and risk taking is motivated by the fear and conquering it.

There is another level of fear which is a phobia, which imprisons some and is totally unhealthy and for some, impossible to live with.

It is also possible that we are basically fear creatures, who are innately fearful, which makes us cautious to learn skills and work things through to boost our confidence. I saw this in my son as he grew up, and in myself when I first start in a new environment and things go wrong. So fear is a tool, if used correctly saves our lives. God bless you
 
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Candidus

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I guess I will never understand being positively motivated by fear.

Why would Jesus terrify His listeners with stories of Eternal agony and torment because of sin? How many come to Christ because they love God so much? Most people respond to God for fear of Judgement; they want what Christ offers to avoid future damnation. You really cannot love God unless you know God; the relationship does not exist until you already believe.

I see the motive changing for the one who Believes, obedience because the love God. Sinning however, is unbelief, and we know from Scripture that if one continues in that unbelief, fear is still a motivator. "The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Love is no doubt the motive that Jesus wanted us to live by. The one walking in the love and light of Jesus Christ will not be doing those things that bring them fear and condemnation. This is why we are constantly exhorted to remain in the faith, abide in Christ, continue and endure. If love cannot motivate the Believer to do this, perhaps fear can. One that is motivated by love focusses on God and others, the one only motivated by fear tends to be more concerned about their own welfare. One is healthier and more productive, but I believe both motives exist in Scripture.
 

Candidus

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If you know rock climbing, this is an example of being motivated by fear.
The fear is about falling, being very careful to spread you weight correctly between your hands and legs, and checking the safety of the next hold you need to do.

You describe the danger of rock climbing and being motivated by fear. Personally, I would rather get down, go home, and change my underwear! :)

(Great Post!)