False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

You goin fishin?

Dan. You make me laugh. A little humor goes a long way. You can quote me on that.

Tribulation is satan's wrath even in our daily lives right now. Those that walk as one with the Lord know how to receive deliverance from the forces of darkness. Too bad you don't know this. Since you claim to be knowledgeable in the scripture and don't already know this shows you are out of touch with the Lord and don't even know it.

The Great Tribulation will be Satans tribulation on the 12 tribes beginning in the midst of the week.

When satan is attacking Christians and Jews left behind after the catching away of the church... the fake god you serve will stand by and do nothing which violates promises the Lord has already made to His faithful that you obviously know nothing of.

And then you had to go and squat in your chili. The fake god I serve???????? You would not believe the things my GOD has done. If you think He is fake you are a man walking in blindness without power.

Those that walk closely with the Lord receive deliverance from oppression but you are welcome to experience all the satanic beat downs you desire. According to your faith it shall be done unto you! View attachment 45589

I have no Idea what your point is. I am a born-again believer that will be raptured when the Lord comes for the first bride.

And I see you were still unable to back up your point with scripture. Crickets is all you got.

 

[The Light]

The AC is revealed then the rapture.

The AC is revealed then the second rapture at the 6th seal which is why there is a great multitude in heaven In Rev 7

The Church is in heaven already.......Rev 5

He is not in power when he is revealed.
Obama was an example of revealed then a few months later, installed in power.
You are thinking something other than revealed.
He is revealed pretrib to the remnant church exactly like Obama was.
Many good Christians followed Obama in deception.
Many good Christians will be deceived by the AC on his pretrib entry to politics.

The pre trib rapture will happen before the AC is revealed.

As far as Obama, he is an excellent candidate to receive the stephanos crown and be Secretary General of the UN.

We agree on the white horses.
And a ton of other things.
We agree partially on the wrath.
The only time Jesus comes in power is on the white horses.

The Lord is seen coming in power at the 6th seal. He sends His angels for the harvest. He remains in the clouds. This is the second coming, all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. Hence the great multitude in Rev 7 and those coming out of great tribulation when the days are cut short.

Then the wrath of God begins. At the end of the trumpets (vials) Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom. This is the second advent.

The bible says he comes at the end of the GT on white horses ( power and glory)

No sir. You have added white horses. The Word says He comes in power and glory, but that is not the coming of Jesus on white horses. The coming of Jesus on white horses happens at the END OF WRATH.

The coming of Jesus at the end of the GT occurs at the 6th seal. It is a harvest. The righteous are harvested from the earth and go to the marriage supper.

The wicked are cast into the wrath of God and the 7th seal opens.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Someday, you are going to realize that the tribulation of those days..........The Great Tribulation............is over at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 should tell you that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. It is not the white horses coming of Jesus which occurs at the end of wrath when Armageddon happens.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The AC is revealed then the second rapture at the 6th seal which is why there is a great multitude in heaven In Rev 7

The Church is in heaven already.......Rev 5


The pre trib rapture will happen before the AC is revealed.

As far as Obama, he is an excellent candidate to receive the stephanos crown and be Secretary General of the UN.


The Lord is seen coming in power at the 6th seal. He sends His angels for the harvest. He remains in the clouds. This is the second coming, all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. Hence the great multitude in Rev 7 and those coming out of great tribulation when the days are cut short.

Then the wrath of God begins. At the end of the trumpets (vials) Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom. This is the second advent.


No sir. You have added white horses. The Word says He comes in power and glory, but that is not the coming of Jesus on white horses. The coming of Jesus on white horses happens at the END OF WRATH.

The coming of Jesus at the end of the GT occurs at the 6th seal. It is a harvest. The righteous are harvested from the earth and go to the marriage supper.

The wicked are cast into the wrath of God and the 7th seal opens.


Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Someday, you are going to realize that the tribulation of those days..........The Great Tribulation............is over at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 should tell you that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. It is not the white horses coming of Jesus which occurs at the end of wrath when Armageddon happens.

Nope
The ONLY Place he comes in power and great glory is rev 19.
Show me differently.
There is no place in the pretrib or prewrath comings/ raptures that he comes in power and great glory.
Only postwrath on the whitehorses.
Huge hole in your model right there
Zero

 

[rebuilder 454]

The AC is revealed then the second rapture at the 6th seal which is why there is a great multitude in heaven In Rev 7

The Church is in heaven already.......Rev 5


The pre trib rapture will happen before the AC is revealed.

As far as Obama, he is an excellent candidate to receive the stephanos crown and be Secretary General of the UN.


The Lord is seen coming in power at the 6th seal. He sends His angels for the harvest. He remains in the clouds. This is the second coming, all eyes see the coming of the Lord. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. Hence the great multitude in Rev 7 and those coming out of great tribulation when the days are cut short.

Then the wrath of God begins. At the end of the trumpets (vials) Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom. This is the second advent.


No sir. You have added white horses. The Word says He comes in power and glory, but that is not the coming of Jesus on white horses. The coming of Jesus on white horses happens at the END OF WRATH.

The coming of Jesus at the end of the GT occurs at the 6th seal. It is a harvest. The righteous are harvested from the earth and go to the marriage supper.

The wicked are cast into the wrath of God and the 7th seal opens.


Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as ag tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Someday, you are going to realize that the tribulation of those days..........The Great Tribulation............is model)over at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 should tell you that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. It is not the white horses coming of Jesus which occurs at the end of wrath when Armageddon happens.

Yes
You have pointed out the back sun verses several times
But that has led you into a corner.
Because nowhere does he come in power and great glory except after the 7 yr trib....( trib then wrath for your Model)

And again, you confuse " revealed" with "installed and taking power"
Two COMPLETELY different concepts.

"""Someday, you are going to realize that the tribulation of those days..........The Great Tribulation............is model)over at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins."""
I already see that the last part of the GT is wrath.
Have known it for over 40 yrs of study

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You would not believe the things my GOD has done. If you think He is fake you are a man walking in blindness without power.

But your claim is God is going to sit by and do nothing as satan is killing billions of people on earth.

Just so you know, the Lord always has a remnant and not all will come under the rule of the anti-christ such as the nation of Jordan which the Lord will protect as many Jews will escape to Jordan and will not serve the anti-christ.

If you continue claiming God is going to allow satan a free hand with no consequences, then you follow a false god with the itty nitty g

There is no place in the pretrib or prewrath comings/ raptures that he comes in power and great glory.

That's speaking of the Lord's second return, not the catching away of the faithful when we meet Him in the air which is an event where the Lord does not actually come back to earth as in He does not set down on the Mount of Olives as we see Him doing at His second return.

 

[Timtofly]

Or I understand that the 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation and the 6th seal is the second coming of Jesus for the harvest before wrath.


The fact that you are unable to understand the 5th seal is the great tribulation does not change the FACT that it is.



Please. The trumpets and thunders are the wrath of God. The tribulation of those days, which is the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal

The thunders are likely when Armageddon occurs, but you won't understand that either.

The 5th Seal is not tribulation. The 5th Seal is the entire church being glorified at the Second Coming.

The only action that happens when the 5th Seal is opened, is the entire church putting on robes of white, and told to wait in Paradise as the great multitude until the final harvest is over.

John uses the symbolism of the robe of white as becoming a complete son of God, body, soul, and spirit.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The second birth makes us sons of God, but the 5th Seal is when we are actually sons of God like Jesus, by putting on the robe of white.

That is the only event and action that happens at the 5th Seal. Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14 in the 6th Seal. These 2 Seals go hand in hand with each other. The glorification of the church and Jesus' return to Jerusalem at the same time.

The tribulation of "those days" is the great tribulation of the church for 2,000 years, starting from the Cross until the Second Coming. The church is no longer in tribulation, once removed from the earth. That tribulation is found in Matthew 24:4-13

The Thunders happen prior to the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet starts sounding before those 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13 given to Satan. So all the Trumpets and Thunders happen 42 months prior to Armageddon, which is after Satan's 42 months of AoD.

Why do people not want Revelation to be in the chronological order John wrote? Why do they insist: "that Revelation is not chronological, thus my own personal order as I see it can only be God's plan for the future"?

The vials poured out at the end of the 42 months is God's wrath. But if you want to call the final harvest the wrath of the Lamb, you would be correct, as only a remnant are redeemed in the Trumpets and Thunders, while the majority are tossed alive into the LOF. The Trumpets and Thunders are a display of God's Sovereignty. But if you want to call every act of nature that disrupts human life, the wrath of God, then God's wrath has happened on the US over the last few months with dozens of tornadoes and violent thunderstorms. In that case God's wrath is consistent year after year. That is the tribulation of the church as well.

 

[Timtofly]

Oh boy. Let me fix that for you. You have yet to make a post that I am able to comprehend that follows scripture. There you go.


Here is the scripture of the tribulation of those days.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Read that verse and then try to figure out how you could possibly conclude that the great tribulation that is like no other time in history has been going on for 1994 years.

Think...................

The Church is removed before the seals are opened. Read Rev 3, 4. and 5



Jesus is in the clouds at the 6th seal. How is it that you don't understand that? Here...............
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Sheesh. Please post chapter and verse of this incorrect conclusion.


Gods people are not appointed to wrath.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I'll go with the Word on this one. The DAY of the Lord is one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.


I am basing the time frame of God's wrath, Day of the Lord by the scripture.

I don't make up a bunch of garbage. What I believe is found in the scripture.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The judgement occurs at the 7th trumpet as does the second advent.

Revelation 14 is not talking about the 6th Seal. That is you attempting to change the chronological order with your own personal opinion.

Jesus is on the earth with His angels as Jihn claims the stars come to earth in the 6th Seal. Jesus claims He brings His angels with Him in both Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. So when Jesus comes in Matthew 24 it is between Israel becoming a nation and Jacob's trouble, not after Jacob's trouble.

Thus the tribulation of those days is the church's tribulation of the last 1994 years, and not after Jacob's trouble, which Jesus will be on the earth during. That is the only interpretation Revelation gives us, unless you twist what John wrote and join the hundreds of interpretations out there, who give their own chronological order like you do saying Revelation 14 is back in the Seals, instead of after the 7th Trumpet.

Both Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 show Jesus using the angels casting humans alive into the LOF.

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Is there a LoF or a furnace at the end of the world?

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Is everlasting punishment a furnace or the LOF at the end of the world? Is the LOF the everlasting place the FP and beast are cast into in the book of Revelation, a thousand years prior to Satan? The LOF will be a reality at the Second Coming, not a thousand years later. Do you have a reservation about people not having a second chance when Jesus said this judgment was final and everlasting, not that they would get a second chance in another thousand years to choose God? This is a time of greatest trouble ever because many will enter the LOF immediately. This is the end for them, not just some ongoing punishment, like those in the grave for the last 5,000 years.

 

[The Light]

The 5th Seal is not tribulation. The 5th Seal is the entire church being glorified at the Second Coming.

The only action that happens when the 5th Seal is opened, is the entire church putting on robes of white, and told to wait in Paradise as the great multitude until the final harvest is over.

How do you draw this conclusion?

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is the Great Tribulation of those days. Seen in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The fifth seal the Great Tribulation of those days.

That is the only event and action that happens at the 5th Seal. Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14 in the 6th Seal. These 2 Seals go hand in hand with each other. The glorification of the church and Jesus' return to Jerusalem at the same time.

Jesus DOES NOT come to Jerusalem at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds. It is the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. The is a harvest. Armageddon does not happen until the end of the trumpets.

The tribulation of "those days" is the great tribulation of the church for 2,000 years, starting from the Cross until the Second Coming.

Come on. You really think that. Mmmmm.........................

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You conclusion that the tribulation of those days is.....................Mmmmmm. THINK.

Did we see the abomination of desolation 2000 years ago?

I have no clue how some of you are capable of drawing conclusion that reject the Word of God. You need to rethink this.

The church is no longer in tribulation, once removed from the earth. That tribulation is found in Matthew 24:4-13

Exactly. And the tribulation of those days begins with the setting up of the abomination of desolation. The Great Tribulation of those days did not start 2000 years ago.

How could you possibly draw this conclusion based on the scripture?

The Thunders happen prior to the 7th Trumpet.

Good.

The 7th Trumpet starts sounding before those 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13 given to Satan. So all the Trumpets and Thunders happen 42 months prior to Armageddon, which is after Satan's 42 months of AoD.

Mmmmmm.............all these conclusions are not based on the Word of God.

Brother, What do you see when you read this verse?

What you should see is that Armageddon has already happened and Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth.

There is NOT 42 MONTHS after the 7th trumpets sounds. When Christ sets up His kingdom the 70 week is OVER.

Why do people not want Revelation to be in the chronological order John wrote? Why do they insist: "that Revelation is not chronological, thus my own personal order as I see it can only be God's plan for the future"?

Revelation IS IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. From Revelation 1 thru Revelation 11 you can read straight through in Chronological order with the exception of Revelation 7 where the sealing of the 144,000 actually occurs before the 5th seal. We can prove that by Revelation 13.

Rev 12 is a different animal.

When you get to Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. When you get to Revelation 15 and 16 you are back in the 7th seal which is Gods wrath. So from Revelation 13 thru Rev 16 that is in chronological order.

That is how you read the book of Revelation.

The vials poured out at the end of the 42 months is God's wrath

Gods wrath is only 1-year. The vials are not poured out at the end of 42 months.

. But if you want to call the final harvest the wrath of the Lamb, you would be correct, as only a remnant are redeemed in the Trumpets and Thunders, while the majority are tossed alive into the LOF.

Do you have scripture to support this?

The Trumpets and Thunders are a display of God's Sovereignty. But if you want to call every act of nature that disrupts human life, the wrath of God, then God's wrath has happened on the US over the last few months with dozens of tornadoes and violent thunderstorms. In that case God's wrath is consistent year after year. That is the tribulation of the church as well.

Gods wrath has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the tribulation. Gods' wrath happens after the tribulation.

 

[The Light]

Revelation 14 is not talking about the 6th Seal. That is you attempting to change the chronological order with your own personal opinion.

I am not changing the chronological order. I am understanding that the wrath of God is over when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Not only do we see that in Revelation 11 but Revelation 10:7 confirms it.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Jesus is on the earth with His angels as Jihn claims the stars come to earth in the 6th Seal. Jesus claims He brings His angels with Him in both Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. So when Jesus comes in Matthew 24 it is between Israel becoming a nation and Jacob's trouble, not after Jacob's trouble.

When Jesus comes in Matthew 24 He does not come to the earth. He comes to the clouds for a harvest. After the harvest, the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Jesus will not set His feet on the mount of Olives until the 7th trumpet.

Thus the tribulation of those days is the church's tribulation of the last 1994 years, and not after Jacob's trouble, which Jesus will be on the earth during.

No Brother. The tribulation of those days cannot begin until the abomination of desolation is set up. So this 1994 years is totally against what the Word of God says.

That is the only interpretation Revelation gives us, unless you twist what John wrote and join the hundreds of interpretations out there, who give their own chronological order like you do saying Revelation 14 is back in the Seals, instead of after the 7th Trumpet.

I don't twist anything, I don't make up anything. What I do is UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM READING. When the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, I understand that Armageddon has already happened, and the wrath of God is OVER.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth. He has come back. Armageddon is over and it is the time of judgement.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Both Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 show Jesus using the angels casting humans alive into the LOF.
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Is there a LoF or a furnace at the end of the world?

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

But this is not what happens at the 6th seal.

Is everlasting punishment a furnace or the LOF at the end of the world? Is the LOF the everlasting place the FP and beast are cast into in the book of Revelation, a thousand years prior to Satan? The LOF will be a reality at the Second Coming, not a thousand years later. Do you have a reservation about people not having a second chance when Jesus said this judgment was final and everlasting, not that they would get a second chance in another thousand years to choose God? This is a time of greatest trouble ever because many will enter the LOF immediately. This is the end for them, not just some ongoing punishment, like those in the grave for the last 5,000 years.

 

[rebuilder 454]

But your claim is God is going to sit by and do nothing as satan is killing billions of people on earth.

Just so you know, the Lord always has a remnant and not all will come under the rule of the anti-christ such as the nation of Jordan which the Lord will protect as many Jews will escape to Jordan and will not serve the anti-christ.

If you continue claiming God is going to allow satan a free hand with no consequences, then you follow a false god with the itty nitty g




That's speaking of the Lord's second return, not the catching away of the faithful when we meet Him in the air which is an event where the Lord does not actually come back to earth as in He does not set down on the Mount of Olives as we see Him doing at His second return.

Which is the point I made.
He comes in power and glory after the trib/wrath
Which is rev 19 the white horse warrior coming.
Main rapture is pretrib
Rev 14 has 2 Jewish raptures mid trib.

 

[The Light]

He comes in power and glory after the trib/wrath

He comes in power and glory at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. There is a harvest at that coming. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the 1-year Day of the Lord, day of His wrath begins.

He returns at the last part of wrath with the armies of heaven on white horses for Armageddon.

 

[rebuilder 454]

He comes in power and glory at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. There is a harvest at that coming. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the 1-year Day of the Lord, day of His wrath begins.

He returns at the last part of wrath with the armies of heaven on white horses for Armageddon.

Well we know that is not true because we see him come in power AFTER the wrath on white horses.

We see him come in rev 14 ( 6th seal) with a sickle as a harvester and sends no angels at all and is not in glory or power.

So you did not factor in those components.

7yr trib.
Wrath at the last part.
No way it is different, due to the "power and great glory" , component, which is The second coming AFTER the 7 yr trib or whatever you call it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

... man of sin -"The Pope"...

You should get off your RANTING contempt for the Pope, he is NOT the Antichrist. He has spent most OF HIS LIFE FOR CHRIST NOT AGAINST HIM.

... but those that are alive when Christ comes the second time at the end of the seven last plagues, ...

You are right that the there is no secret rapture. His coming is not believed and therefore unexpected. He comes like a thief in the night as the flood came.
But when billions of people are translated, there will be no mystery, because at this time_ when His returns _ every eye will see Him.
But this is at the last (7th) trumpet, not the 7th bowl. When He returns, it is not over yet - so the Pre-Tribbers and Post -Tribbers are both wrong. He returns with the sound of the trumpet and receives the Church - THEN THE SEVEN BOWLS OF WRATH ARE RELEASED and the war in the valley of Megiddo begins. This likely is a very short war and this phase of judgment short as well ( maybe 40 days before the end?). Still it is not over when He returns.

 

[The Light]

Well we know that is not true

No. We don't know that. You think that. LOL.

because we see him come in power AFTER the wrath on white horses.

He does come on white horses at the end of the wrath of God

But he also comes in the clouds in power and glory when every eye will see him at the 6th seal which is immediately after the tribulation.

The Great Tribulation of those days is when Satan goes after the 12 Tribes and tries to kill them all. The wrath of God is when God punishes an evil world. The Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

We see him come in rev 14 ( 6th seal) with a sickle as a harvester and sends no angels at all and is not in glory or power.

So you are correct that when He comes in Rev 14 that occurs at the 6th seal. You are halfway home.

Now let's get the other half.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

We can clearly see that when the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur Jesus comes in power and glory. So Jesus comes in power and glory immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God begins.

 

[The Light]

You are right that the there is no secret rapture.

Do you think that Satan has spent his time setting up the alien abduction story because there is no secret pretribulation rapture?

His coming is not believed and therefore unexpected. He comes like a thief in the night as the flood came.
But when billions of people are translated, there will be no mystery, because at this time_ when His returns _ every eye will see Him.

Every eye will not see Him when He comes for the Church. Only those that are looking for Him. And BTW, you are not looking for our blessed hope.

Hebrews 9

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

But this is at the last (7th) trumpet, not the 7th bowl. When He returns, it is not over yet - so the Pre-Tribbers and Post -Tribbers are both wrong. He returns with the sound of the trumpet and receives the Church - THEN THE SEVEN BOWLS OF WRATH ARE RELEASED and the war in the valley of Megiddo begins. This likely is a very short war and this phase of judgment short as well ( maybe 40 days before the end?). Still it is not over when He returns.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Do you think that Satan has spent his time setting up the alien abduction story because there is no secret pretribulation rapture?

He wasted his time, not many folks believe in aliens from outer space abductions. There is a new documentary out that debunks just about all of that fiction.

The UFO Movie They Don't Want You to See (2023) ⭐ 5.9 | Documentary

1h 33m | Unrated

m.imdb.com

Every eye will not see Him when He comes for the Church. Only those that are looking for Him. And BTW, you are not looking for our blessed hope.

Every eye scripture says. Why would Christians mourn when they saw Him?

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

We are looking up for Him to consummate our redemption. But they will see Him. They war against Him ... how pathetic that will be.

 

[The Light]

He wasted his time, not many folks believe in aliens from outer space abductions. There is a new documentary out that debunks just about all of that fiction.

The UFO Movie They Don't Want You to See (2023) ⭐ 5.9 | Documentary

1h 33m | Unrated

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The world believes in aliens my friend just as they believe in evolution. But yes aliens are bunk. However, beam me up Scotty was for a reason.

Every eye scripture says. Why would Christians mourn when they saw Him?

First off, every eye will not see Him when He comes for the Church. Only those looking for Him will see Him. And then the ark door is closed, 6 years before destruction, just as the ark was closed 6 days before destruction.

When the Lord comes for the second harvest at the 6th seal, all eyes will mourn.

Matthew 24
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Only those looking for Him will see Him when He comes for the Church. He will come again at the 6th seal and all eyes will see Him come in power and glory. The reason all the tribes of the earth will mourn is because they realize they will be cast into the wrath of God.

We are looking up for Him to consummate our redemption. But they will see Him. They war against Him ... how pathetic that will be.

Only the believes that look for Him will see Him when He comes for the Church. The bride has made herself ready for the bridegroom. Then the eyes of part of Israel.............the twelve tribes across the earth, will have their eyes opened. The world will mourn as they realize it is too late and they must fight. As you said..........futile.

 

[Douggg]

We can clearly see that when the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur Jesus comes in power and glory. So Jesus comes in power and glory immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God begins.

step 1. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days

step 2. Matthew 24:29 shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (sixth seal)

step 3. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: (sixth seal)

step 4. Matthew 24:30 and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, (sixth seal)

step 5. Matthew 24:30 and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Revelation 19)

 

[Timtofly]

How do you draw this conclusion?

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is the Great Tribulation of those days. Seen in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The fifth seal the Great Tribulation of those days.


Jesus DOES NOT come to Jerusalem at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds. It is the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. The is a harvest. Armageddon does not happen until the end of the trumpets.


Come on. You really think that. Mmmmm.........................

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You conclusion that the tribulation of those days is.....................Mmmmmm. THINK.

Did we see the abomination of desolation 2000 years ago?

I have no clue how some of you are capable of drawing conclusion that reject the Word of God. You need to rethink this.


Exactly. And the tribulation of those days begins with the setting up of the abomination of desolation. The Great Tribulation of those days did not start 2000 years ago.

How could you possibly draw this conclusion based on the scripture?


Good.


Mmmmmm.............all these conclusions are not based on the Word of God.

Brother, What do you see when you read this verse?

What you should see is that Armageddon has already happened and Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth.

There is NOT 42 MONTHS after the 7th trumpets sounds. When Christ sets up His kingdom the 70 week is OVER.


Revelation IS IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. From Revelation 1 thru Revelation 11 you can read straight through in Chronological order with the exception of Revelation 7 where the sealing of the 144,000 actually occurs before the 5th seal. We can prove that by Revelation 13.

Rev 12 is a different animal.

When you get to Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. When you get to Revelation 15 and 16 you are back in the 7th seal which is Gods wrath. So from Revelation 13 thru Rev 16 that is in chronological order.

That is how you read the book of Revelation.


Gods wrath is only 1-year. The vials are not poured out at the end of 42 months.


Do you have scripture to support this?

Gods wrath has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the tribulation. Gods' wrath happens after the tribulation.

When the 5th Seal is opened John sees all in Paradise who have shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The rest of humanity has to shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The vengeance is on death and the bondage of sin.

Do you not grasp that the wrath of God towards sin, will be poured out soon on all who reject God, just as that wrath was poured out on the wicked in Noah's day? This is not personal vengeance for martyred people. This is God's wrath on the sin that humans clung to instead of God's gift of salvation.

The symbolism of souls under the alter is not the personal suffering of those souls. None of them paid the price for their sins, and suffered for that sin. Jesus was the Lamb that paid the price on that alter for all those redeemed souls.

The only event the 5th Seal portrays is the most wonderful glorification of those souls as they put on the spirit, the robe of white. This is not salvation. This is becoming a fully restored son of God, soul, body, and spirit. That only happens one time for the church, at the Second Coming rapture event, where those on earth along with those in Paradise are re-united with their spirit.

The symbolism of souls under the alter includes those on the earth as covered by the Atonement Covenant. This is not literal souls under a literal alter writhing in anguish.

The literal physical point is found in the next chapter where soul and body have been serving God in Paradise since the Cross. The thief next to Jesus had a physical body, a white garment and was enjoying Paradise that day as described in Revelation 7. The rest of the OT redeemed joined him a few days later on Sunday morning. They all have been serving God, day and night since the Cross. The NT redeemed have joined them one by one, some coming out of tribulation, others dying of old age, all shedding Adam's dead corruptible flesh for God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

The 5th Seal is the rapture. The 6th Seal is the baptism of fire when all the works on earth are burned up per 2 Peter 3. It is when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14.

The second coming is not the mount Megiddo of Revelation 16. The Second Coming is to the Mount of Olives per the 6th Seal when heaven dissolves and the geography of the earth is changed like in the Flood. All the continent's and mountains will be moved out of their places. That is what happens in Zechariah 14. That is what happens when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives.

Revelation 19 is a return after Jesus handed Satan the kingdom and throne for 42 months. If that even happens. Jesus may never hand Satan the throne but bind Satan without a 42 month period of AoD. We will not know until the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, a week of days. By Wednesday, those on earth will receive the news if Satan gets the throne, and that is when all should flee the area. Satan and his angels were just cast out onto the earth, and if they get 42 more months of life it will be to insist people get the mark and follow Satan.

Revelation 14 is the end when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. The Millennium starts without Satan's 42 months at that point. You don't keep Revelation in Chronological order, but go back in time, which is wrong. Once the 7th Trumpet sounds, none of the rest of the book goes back to a former event.

The events are not in chronological order in Matthew 24. Not sure why most of you think the Nation of Israel happened after the Second Coming? That is the first event, then the Second Coming, then the GT, and last of all the AoD. You think the AoD happens, then the GT, then the Second Coming, and finally Israel becomes a nation. Except that already happened, no? Jesus places the Second Coming between Israel becoming a nation and the GT. Revelation is in the reverse order of Matthew 24, as most people think the AoD happens then the GT, and then the Second Coming. Armageddon is not the "surprise" Second Coming by any mention of Jesus, Paul, nor Peter. People will be able to count down the days to the Second Coming if you all think it is in Revelation 19. It will not be a thief in the night moment per Peter in 2 Peter 3.

Of course God's wrath happens after the GT, after the Trumpets and Thunders (the GT). After 42 months of the AoD, when the 7 vials are poured out. The wrath is poured out during the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses are laying dead in Jerusalem. Because the 6th vial is God gathering all to Armageddon, and the 7th is the end of Satan's control of Jerusalem and the city sheds the works of Satan in a great earthquake. The earthquake is right before Armageddon within a few hours, as it only takes one hour to get from Jerusalem to Armageddon by a motor vehicle. Some are killed in Jerusalem, the rest at Armageddon.

 

[Timtofly]

I am not changing the chronological order. I am understanding that the wrath of God is over when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Not only do we see that in Revelation 11 but Revelation 10:7 confirms it.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


When Jesus comes in Matthew 24 He does not come to the earth. He comes to the clouds for a harvest. After the harvest, the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Jesus will not set His feet on the mount of Olives until the 7th trumpet.

No Brother. The tribulation of those days cannot begin until the abomination of desolation is set up. So this 1994 years is totally against what the Word of God says.


I don't twist anything, I don't make up anything. What I do is UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM READING. When the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, I understand that Armageddon has already happened, and the wrath of God is OVER.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth. He has come back. Armageddon is over and it is the time of judgement.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



But this is not what happens at the 6th seal.

Even if time is extended for 42 months, the 7th Trumpet is still sounding in the background until after Armageddon.

The 7th Trumpet covers from the point of Revelation 10:5 until the Millennium starts when those beheaded are judged in the binding of Satan and the beast and FP cast into the LOF. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, the Millennium starts.

If the Trumpet ends after a week of days, and the week is not split for the AoD, then the winepress happens, all are dead, the 7th Trumpet still stops and the Millennium begins with the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat all ruling and reigning with Jesus on the earth. Satan is still bound those same 1,000 years. No one knows how much time the Trumpets and Thunders will last. The days keep getting shorter the longer the 5th and 6th Seals are not opened. There is war in the 4th Seal. That war keeps getting shorter and shorter as well.

Chapter 17 explains that the 7th Kingdom is the one given to Christ at the 7th Trumpet. But no one can say the 8th kingdom has to happen. The 8th kingdom will only be determined during the 7th Trumpet.

The dragon, sea beast, and scarlet beast only has 7 kingdoms. If there is an eighth, it can only be after the 7th Trumpet, because Jesus is not one of the 7 heads, and none of the 7 heads can be the 7th Kingdom.

The 7th and final head is Satan. Satan is not the 7th Kingdom, so no 42 months as the 8th kingdom can happen until the 7th Kingdom is declared. That is how math works.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is (all past history), and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh (Jesus the Prince to come), he must continue a short space (3.5 days from Sunday to Wednesday). And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Satan is the beast that was, the dragon, and is not, never has reigned over the earth as a kingdom, even he, Satan is the eighth, and is part of the dragon, has influenced those 6 kingdoms, but will go into perdition, bound a thousand years, and then tossed into the LOF.

The verse in chapter 17 is true if there is a 42 month extension, the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant with the many. Only God knows the future. Only God will know if any on earth will be beheaded during those 42 months, that is the confirmation of the Covenant in the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet. If all souls are harvested and none left to be beheaded, then Satan will never be the 8th kingdom. The 7th Kingdom will continue on earth for a thousand years, uninterrupted.