So you think the sun is an angel ?The angels are the stars in the firmament. That is from Genesis 1. Man's science is at odds with God's Word. The heavenly host is this alleged universe that will dissolve in a "ball" of fire at the 6th Seal.
The curtain of man's science will roll up like a scroll and dissolve away, along with all this spiritual blindness causing humans to see things that are not there, and unable to see what is actually there.
Science of the mind has literally created a virtual universe that does not even exist.
The literal stars of the firmament are the heavenly host, the angels. In the firmament they don't appear human. They are the flaming ministers, ie stars. Psalms 104:4
"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:"
That was written about in the Gospels at the birth of Christ. The angels came to earth then as well. They just did not burn up everything at that time. The term spirit is associated with air or gas throughout Scripture, and context needs to be used to seperate physical from holy. But in the firmament being holy and being physical is the same, as sin has not affected the angels doing their jobs as the stars. The angels that rebelled have been locked in the pit of Revelation 9 and 20, and are only loosed between the 5th and 7th Trumpets, then presumably placed in the LOF during the Day of the Lord.
Spiritual warfare has not been angels against angels. That is why we cannot conflate sons of God with angels. There were humans also created not from Adam and Eve, along with billions of demonic spirits of humans from Adam and Eve. That is the spiritual warfare going on. Humanity including the sons of God have a spirit, which is what angels are: spirits. Demonic possession is just another human spirit invading the soul and mind of another human. Spirits are not a third creation beside angels and humans. Angels are spirits, and the sons of God have a spirit. As a restored son of God, several verses claim we will shine as the angels/stars. That is a physical attribute of having a spirit on over the physical body. Which is what Jesus demonstrated on the mount of Transfiguration. Jesus did not become an angel or star. The natural form of a son of God shines like a star or the sun.
The reverse happens to angels when they appear on earth, they have to appear as fallen humans without a spirit. So the point is that John in Revelation is declaring that after the 6th Seal, angels will appear on the earth in their natural form, and those stars will literally come to earth as stars.
Obviously that form is not what we are taught about the firmament. Angels are not gigantic physical "balls" of burning gas. There is no 14 billion year universe taking up this vast space as portrayed in science nor fictional science. The firmament is "as bland" as portrayed in Genesis 1. The firmament is far from bland, just not how humans imagine in their spiritual blindness, since Adam disobeyed God. It took many generations of humans to exist before the sons of God were even interested in Adam and Eve's offspring. Obviously the sons of God were removed from the earth and had to wait in heaven just like the dead have to wait in sheol until the end of this creation. Just like the church has to wait in Paradise given to Adam and Eve's offspring until the NHNE.
False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Negative. Jesus goes to heaven for the marriage supper. Why do you think there is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7 after the 6th seal. All are going to the marriage supper which we see in Revelation 19
The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal.....................immediately after the tribulation.........................
No sir. When Jesus returns in Matthew 24, the Great Tribulation over. There is a rapture event and then a great multitude is in heaven.
THEN the wrath of God begins.
The great tribulation is when the dragon goes after the woman but she has fled to a place of protection. He then goes after her seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth. So the great tribulation is when the dragon goes after the Jews. The Church is already in heaven.
The wrath of God is not the great tribulation. The wrath of God is when God punishes the world for their wickedness.
The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation.
No. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. When the great tribulation is over, the world will be saying peace and safety when they are suddenly cast into the wrath of God.
Sure it does. When the sixth seal is opened............................. 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
You should be able to draw a conclusion based on the evidence that the great tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The Light
Well-Known Member
Here is what happens at the 6th seal.
Rev 6
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Here is the 6th seal event spoken of in Isaiah.
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
The Lord comes for the second bride at the 6th seal, the chosen bride. The Church is already in heaven. At the gathering from heaven and earth, the Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal in Revelation 7
The bridegroom when married does not go to war for 1 year. He stays with the bride. After the one year he can go to war.
Deuteronomy 24
5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.
Here is the marriage supper of the Lamb. The bridegroom, Jesus, will not go to war until after one year. It is the day of vengeance and the year of recompenses.
Revelation 19
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
So again, the great tribulation, which is when the dragon brings tribulation on the people of God is over before the wrath of God begins when God punishes the world for its evil.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Don't you see the Lord on the cloud and sending His angels to gather the righteous. So, it is a harvest. Here is who is harvested from the earth. They are singing the song of Moses so we know that it is the twelve tribes across the earth.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Here is Revelation 14 verse 20
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
What you are not understanding is that it is the winepress of wrath that does not happen exactly then. It happens when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven
Rev 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
So the event of the winepress happens at the 6th TRUMPET and the 6th VIAL which happen in the same timeframe.
Verse 20 - "without the city". without the city of Jerusalem.
Jesus returns to Jerusalem. In Revelation 19:21, Jesus destroys the armies that are in Jerusalem and immediate vicinity.
At the same time, the angel in Revelation 14:19-20 destroys the armies in the rest of Israel.
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The winepress of God's wrath squeezes the blood out of the wicked that day - such that the blood flows deep, in some places as a horse's bridle deep in Jerusalem and all of Israel.
In Jerusalem, the Kidron valley and Hinnom valley on the east and south side of the temple mount is the valley of Jehoshaphat in Joel 3:12-17. Those valleys will be full of blood when Jesus destroys the armies in Jerusalem and vicinity.
The Jews (Judaism) themselves believe that the valley of Jehoshaphat, the valley where God judges, is either the Kidron valley or the Hinnom valley or both since they come together in Jerusalem.
Joel 12:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Jesus will destroy the kings of the earth and their armies in Jerusalem and immediate vicinity that day when He returns to the Mt of Olives in Jerusalem.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Verse 15 describes the sixth seal and Matthew 24:29. And verse 14 describes the kings of the earth armies surrounding Jerusalem and the temple mount - which on the temple mount will be where the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan will be when they meet their end.
The winepress of God's wrath take place on the day that Jesus returns.
You have some things mixed up regarding the trumpets and the vials.
There sixth trumpet - i.e. second woe to the inhabiters of the earth - is the killing of a third of mankind by the 200,000,000 man size army. That happens in a prelude, i.e. a pre-event to Armageddon, as the kings of the east march their armies west toward Israel, killing the large populations in India and Afghanistan on the way.
The prelude to Armageddon is the battles in Daniel 11:40-44, as the kings of the north, south, and east attack the beast-king (king of the west), most likely because he will be funneling all of the middle east oil to the western alliance of nations, i.e. the EU, the US, and Canada.
At the height of that conflict, the sixth seal will take place, the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Jesus sickle in hand. And as a result, the conflict stops and everyone unites under the leadership of the beast-king and prepares to make war on Jesus.
The sixth vial of God's wrath is the Armageddon gathering of the king's of the earth armies to make war on Jesus.
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Here is one of the things you need to get straight in your head... vials of God's wrath... and the winepress of God's wrath....the different timing thereof.
1. The seven vials of God's wrath take place over the course of the great tribulation, 1335 days long. The sixth and seventh vials are near the very end of the great tribulation.
2. The winepress of God's wrath takes place on the last day of the great tribulation, the day that Jesus returns.
a. Jesus destroys the armies in Jerusalem and immediate vicinity.
b. the angel with the sickle destroys the armies in the rest of Israel.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You are not understanding the difference between naturally dying and death being the last enemy.
Do you not understand that those who start reigning at the beginning will still be naturally and physically alive, without any decay to their health a thousand years later?
Death as an enemy is a punishment. Those who disobey the natural order will be punished by death, as the last enemy. Disobedience is still the enemy along with the punishment death. But sin is not normal. No one will be born with a sinful nature, or they would all be dead.
How many times did Adam disobey God before he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God"
Revelation 19:17
The sun was the back drop, seen behind him. The angel was actually in earth's atmosphere where the birds of the earth fly.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You don't think God used the sun to control the birds to gather them from all over, to one place?
Is the sun considered a star, or not? Why do you make a distinction between the sky and the firmament? John did not say he saw a man's appearance in the sun. John saw the angel in the sun, and angels don't exist as humans in physical human bodies.
The sun is a star. But the angel was not literally in the sun.
The angel will be standing probably from a high mountain in Israel, with the early morning sun as a backdrop as he cries with a loud voice for the birds come from all through Israel, to feast on them that were going to die that day
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is an artistic human imagination perspective, sure.
But John is not seeing a human looking being silhouette against a morning sun.
It would be the sun itself calling the birds. You are thinking the angel is in human form.
Why are you narrowing the effect of this to only a narrow strip of land?
The birds also were all, more than likely, going to die, as all things were about to be made new, and flesh would no longer be the diet of birds after that point.
The whole point though is that the stars have always been associated with the angels as the heavenly host, since they were placed there on the 4th day of creation.
Because the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon. And Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and destroys part of those armies there. The angel given a sickle in Revelation 14:19-20, destroys the rest of the armies beyond Jerusalem, in the rest of Israel. The blood of the slain will run a horses bridle deep in some parts, and for 1600 furlongs, i.e 200 miles, the length of Israel.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Except for the fact that Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives at the 6th Seal years prior to Armageddon.
Keraz
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Not correct.
Jesus does not come down to the earth at the Sixth seal. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:3-4
Tim, the sixth seal event will result in Armageddon, i.e. the gathering of the kings of the earth gathering their armies to make war on Jesus. The sixth seal event is the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven, Matthew 24:30a. The kings of the earth will be terrified.
And for 45 days will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.
Psalms 2 describes their preparing. I have matched the text of Revelation 6:16 with Psalms 2, by color coding and underlining.
In the sixth seal
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Psalms 2:
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
In verse 4 above, the kings of the earth will be in a frantic mode in their vain effort as they prepare to make war on Jesus for 45 days.
In verse 5, on the 45th day, Jesus descends to earth, on the day of the winepress of God's wrath, and destroys their armies.
In verse 6, that day, Jesus begins his 1000 year reign from Jerusalem. In verse 7, as God declares it, begotten Jesus as King.
The 45 day are on this chart. And on the chart befow, the day of the winepress of God's wrath.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You are not paying attention to Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 for the final harvest. No one is left alive on the earth, period, after the winepress. That means all humanity are dead. There is not a final harvest from the dead people.
The final harvest is Jesus on the earth while people are still alive.
You say it is just the kings of the earth, and their armies. But in Revelation 19 it is every last human there at Armageddon.
"That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."
No one is left alive, so that means the final harvest already happened and was over prior to the 42 months of Satan's AoD. You do understand that by Armageddon, all humanity will have had the mark, and their names removed from the Lamb's book of life? God does not put their names back into the Lamb's book of life. The final harvest is not after Armageddon. The final harvest is after the 6th Seal, meaning Jesus has already came to the Mount of Olives at the 6th Seal for the final harvest.
ewq1938
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That's because the seals do not dictate the happening any of the events they describe at the time of the openings. Jesus remains in heaven to open the last seal and waits in heaven for his 7th trump second coming.
`Tim, in the winepress of God's wrath, the blood will rule 1600 furlongs, 200 miles, the length of Israel. But there will be people still alive on the earth, that Jesus will rule over, who are not part of the great tribulation saints..
When Jesus returns, He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. It will be the heathen nations.
Psalms 2:
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
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Matthew 13:30 does not say "final" harvest, but is a parable about the kingdom of heaven.
The passage text spoken by Jesus does not mention the winepress of God's wrath.
Matthew 25 does not refer to a harvest. Matthew 13:39-44 does. Is that the passage you were referring to? If so, that passage refer to the good seed and the tares. And is broad in scope to the final destination of wicked versus the righteous. And the precious valuable of the kingdom of heaven.
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