Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Hepzibah]

PROV. 8:22-30

22 The Lord created me at the beginningb of his work,c

the first of his acts of long ago.

23 Ages ago I was set up,

at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,

when there were no springs abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains had been shaped,

before the hills, I was brought forth—

26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,d

or the world’s first bits of soil.

27 When he established the heavens, I was there,

when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 when he made firm the skies above,

when he established the fountains of the deep,

29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,

so that the waters might not transgress his command,

when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;e

and I was daily hisf delight,

rejoicing before him always,

 

[ProDeo]

It really is pathological how trinitarians evade questions.

The YOU answer her questions about being Born Again.

 

[Ritajanice]

According to google.which is a commentary.

The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of some Christians. Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17).

RJ asks Another question...Jesus is the only way that we can be reunited in spirit back to his Father God, as God imo is Jesus Spirit Father, he was sent by the Father....whereas we have been spiritually birthed by the Father, via his Spirit....no doubt it’s pretty mind blowing stuff.

Plus how can our tiny pea brains compete or even understand God, how he births our spirit,.or how he got Mary pregnant with Jesus...it’s mind blowing stuff......one thing for sure...from above His mighty Living Spirit is watching us, even now on this thread.....you would never think so though.....because he’s so quiet, ....we certainly aren’t, especially on this subject,LOL.

Another commentary.

I Corinthians 2:14 says, “The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” For this reason, some people may try to convince you to turn away from what God wants you to do. But, remember this: The person who is unspiritual will use his senses (his ears, eyes, and unspiritual mind) to try and “discern” what you should do. Reason makes us focus on circumstances, but spiritual discernment helps us see through circumstances.

 

[Ritajanice]

We are given the framework and having spiritual minds can discern things not specified like for example, how a man knows he is called to the ministry. He cannot give you personal scrips.

I was brought back to this and yes I agree...when I first read this I wasn’t quite understanding what you were saying...a Born Again will develop a spiritual mind as our spirit has been birthed into Christ Spirit..

I think those who preach teach @Hepzibah ...God calls them from his heart to their heart...pretty amazing stuff!..clergy, pastors, priests, Jehovah witness...Catholic’s...etc...

 

[Hepzibah]

I was brought back to this and yes I agree...when I first read this I wasn’t quite understanding what you were saying...a Born Again will develop a spiritual mind as our spirit has been birthed into Christ Spirit..

I think those who preach teach @Hepzibah ...God calls them from his heart to their heart...pretty amazing stuff!..clergy, pastors, priests, Jehovah witness...Catholic’s...etc...

I see it more as seeing things through spiritual eyes as opposed to eyes of the flesh or carnal eyes. For example, understanding that persecution often comes from our enemy who is using those who know us even family to try to bring us down, and will help us to not be hurt by it.

 

[Ritajanice]

I see it more as seeing things through spiritual eyes as opposed to eyes of the flesh or carnal eyes. For example, understanding that persecution often comes from our enemy who is using those who know us even family to try to bring us down, and will help us to not be hurt by it.

Amen!..Sis!..edit to add..excellent insight there..imo.

 

[Brakelite]

You forgot about Adam:

“…Adam, son of God.” Luke 3:8

Father means “one who gives origin to; a generator.”

You are stretching here. Adam was a unique individual, being the first human to be made, even from mud. And we inherit those same genetic features that identify us as human, the carbon based minerals common to all mankind. And yes, the human child of Mary also inherited those same genes, but when we talk about the divine Son of God, we need to differentiate between the person born in Bethlehem, and the one begotten and brought forth before creation. The human Jesus was a new type of being, and a Son in a very different sense. Philippians 2 is a beautiful resume of the humility of the z Son is God in condescending to become s human being. Equal with God in all things except in rank, He chose to leave behind his former position as leader and Lord of the angelic host, forsaking the adoration, the love, and the worship of all heaven, to become a lowly child born of a peasant woman in an occupied nation whose leaders He knew would have Him killed. But His love and faithfulness to mortal sinners became paramount above self preservation and pride.
JWs have it terribly wrong in teaching that Jesus was a created angel. They totally miss the boat, and oneness folk are even more bereft of fully appreciating the enormous infinite sacrifice made by both Father and Son, and the risk they both took in the process. Risk of Jesus sinning and failing the mission. And therefore risk of destruction and extinction. Man has no real appreciation of the extent of the love of the Saviour and of the Father, and the lengths they were willing to go to in order to redeem us.
Born of the holy Spirit in human form, the pre-incarnate Son of God chose a radical humiliating change in nature...a change that will last forever.

 

[Brakelite]

“Son of God”, is nowhere near the same as God the Son.

What does “of” mean?

of
/ˈʌv/ /əv/ Brit /ˈɒv/ /əv/ /ə/
preposition

1
: belonging to, relating to, or connected with (someone or something.

2
— used to indicate that someone or something belongs to a group of people or things.

Jesus “belongs” to God. Just as a son belongs to his father.

Jesus is from God. Just as a son is from his Father.

This in no way means Jesus is God!

Adam is called “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) Angels are called “sons of God.” —Job 38:7.

And Jesus is unique among them, being Jehovah God’s “firstborn” (Colossians 1:15) and “only-begotten” (John 3:16). And due to His faithfulness to death, He was “exalted” by God, his Father. — Philippians 2:9.

But to go further and ascribe Godship to Jesus, is going “beyond what is written.” — 1 Corinthians 4:6.

Jesus is our Exemplar.
So, who did Jesus worship?
His Father (John 20:17), whose name is Yahweh (Jehovah in English, Psalm 83:18).

Speaking for myself, I’ll stick with that.

Your father is human, therefore you are human. Why would not the Son of God be God?

One excellent analogy is found in Daniel 2. The rock that was formed without hands came forth from the mountain. The mountain (The Father) had been there forever, the Rock (the Son) came forth from the Father. He was of the same substance as the Father (rock) but had a beginning (begotten) in personality, but in infinity as a part of the mountain. Now of course no analogy is perfect, particularly when discussing the infinite, but the above explains quite clearly where in coming from. I believe it harmonises with the rest of Scripture.

 

[ProDeo]

It really is pathological how trinitarians evade questions.

Downplaying again ?

Then YOU @Wrangler explain to her (and me) what it means to be born again, are you born again? When and how. In detail please.

RJ, since you wowed my post, I would like to hear from him and check if he is not himself a pathological urinitarian evading questions.

 

[Ritajanice]

Downplaying again ?

Then YOU @Wrangler explain to her (and me) what it means to be born again, are you born again? When and how. In detail please.

RJ, since you wowed my post, I would like to hear from him and check if he is not himself a pathological urinitarian evading questions.

He doesn’t have to, neither do the ladies...we all understand the rebirth/ Born Again differently...does the Spirit testify of himself to everyone the same ..of course he doesn’t.

You know God in your heart same as wrangler...he speaks to us all differently does he not?

As long as what we hear, doesn’t contradict his word.all good eh...chill out...we’re all Brothers and Sisters in Christ...not all will agree with that or my opinion...who cares...stay focused on the Spirit, In Jesus Name...Amen!

My understanding of Born Again, is mine...I shouldn’t force what I believe about it onto others....they know much more than me on certain levels.....aren’t we all different parts connected to the true vine @ProDeo .

Our callings are all different aren’t they?..

 

[ProDeo]

I agree with the first part of the sentence above, but would qualify eternity by agreeing with Hepzibah on his point that the Son came forth from the Father in eternity, but not necessarily from all eternity, as that of necessity denies His true Sonship.

That's an interesting observation, need some time to let it sink in.

That is, if someone can point Scripture to me that Christ like the Father was uncreated and from all eternity.

Headache issue.

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree with the first part of the sentence above, but would qualify eternity by agreeing with Hepzibah on his point that the Son came forth from the Father in eternity, but not necessarily from all eternity, as that of necessity denies His true Sonship.

I am not sure where that idea is coming from, but to me it would seem to diminish His deity (God has no beginning and no end), and also since He created everything in both heaven and earth, including all powers and principalities. He is called the Son of God because He was begotten of God on earth as a man, begotten of God's Spirit.......the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary......and what was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit, of God. His body was created, but He Himself was not, being God (part of the Godhead as we think of it). He was God manifest in the flesh. And He said of Himself..."Before Abraham was I AM". I AM implies that He always was and always will be, in terms of time...no beginning and no end. It is a name of God. I can't fathom that Christ is a mere created being who was created in eternity. That would seem to make Him only equal to angels.....and how could that be since He is the one who created the angels and everything else in heaven!

 

[Hepzibah]

."Before Abraham was I AM". I AM implies that He always was and always will be, in terms of time...no beginning and no end. It is a name of God.

In terms of time not eternity. Born into time means there is a beginning.

 

[Hepzibah]

That would seem to make Him only equal to angels.....and how could that be since He is the one who created the angels and everything else in heaven!

He is not equal to angels as they do not share the same essence as God. He created all things after being brought forth into time and space.

 

[Lizbeth]

PROV. 8:22-30

22 The Lord created me at the beginningb of his work,c

the first of his acts of long ago.

23 Ages ago I was set up,

at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,

when there were no springs abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains had been shaped,

before the hills, I was brought forth—

26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,d

or the world’s first bits of soil.

27 When he established the heavens, I was there,

when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 when he made firm the skies above,

when he established the fountains of the deep,

29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,

so that the waters might not transgress his command,

when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;e

and I was daily hisf delight,

rejoicing before him always,

But who is the Lord in that first line who created what is being talked about here, since the Apostle wrote that Christ created all things in heaven and earth....? Reading the whole chapter of Proverb 8, it says Wisdom is what is being talked about here that was created and brought forth.....and it had to have been created by the Son of God when He was in the form of God.

Unless we are not take the word created here literally........that Christ always existed with God and was brought forth of Him in a manner of speaking in eternity as it were for the purpose of creating. These are hard mysteries to grasp and I think these things need to be taken as spiritual poetic language, not literal. I just know I could not accept anything that would diminish or undermine His Divinity. That's a non-negotiable. I do not have my trust and faith in a created being. I do not have the Spirit of a created being in me. I do not lay my life on the altar to a created being.

 

[Hepzibah]

I could not accept anything that would diminish or undermine His Divinity. That's a non-negotiable. I do not have my trust and faith in a created being. I do not have the Spirit of a created being in me. I do not lay my life on the altar to a created being.

Neither do I Lizbeth. It just takes a while to get ones head around the fullness of it all.

 

[Hepzibah]

But who is the Lord in that first line who created what is being talked about here, since the Apostle wrote that Christ created all things in heaven and earth....?

It is a hard thing to grasp how Christ created the universe as well as the Father.

 

[amigo de christo]

PROV. 8:22-30

22 The Lord created me at the beginningb of his work,c

the first of his acts of long ago.

23 Ages ago I was set up,

at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,

when there were no springs abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains had been shaped,

before the hills, I was brought forth—

26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,d

or the world’s first bits of soil.

27 When he established the heavens, I was there,

when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 when he made firm the skies above,

when he established the fountains of the deep,

29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,

so that the waters might not transgress his command,

when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;e

and I was daily hisf delight,

rejoicing before him always,

not created me
Possessed me . When even before He brought forth . Before abraham was I am . Yes indeed .

 

[amigo de christo]

It is a hard thing to grasp how Christ created the universe as well as the Father.

Who is Christ . THE WORD . GOD SPOKE .
His essence comes forth of HIM and creates . Let there be LIGHT and there was light .
The beauty is that the Word became flesh .
All who do believe in He whom GOD did send have eternal life .
My Fathers commandment is eternal life .
This is MY Son in whom i am well pleased , HEAR YE HIM .
When CHRIST JESUS was speaking to the jews
that beleived not on HIM , He said As i said ye hear me not for ye have not His word abiding in you .
HE who is of GOD hears GODS WORDS . as john would later write
HE who hears us is OF GOD and HE who hears not us IS NOT of GOD .
That oughtta kick that ol golden bull of interfaith right over as it tries to say otherwise and that all religoins
be serving God . Now to the trenches and forward march for these be the last days my friend .

 

[Lizbeth]

He is not equal to angels as they do not share the same essence as God. He created all things after being brought forth into time and space.

You mean the time and space that He created? See that doesn't jive.

Those terms "essence" versus the other term (forget what it is at the moment) I have discerned to be from the mind of man...they are not revelation and they miss the mark. The carnal intellect tries to make sense of spiritual things but can't. We can only receive understanding in spirit, by the Spirit.