Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Ritajanice]

@Wrangler ..I’m sold on the fact as you can read above on my post....I believe the Spirit got me to the truth in the end....of course that’s my belief...others see it differently....I’m now done on this subject, ..can’t see any point of further discussion.

If others want to believe in the trinity, then they too must believe God brought them to the truth.

The Bible on just that one point , Jesus doesn’t know the time or hour of his return....God is all knowing, there is nothing he doesn’t know.....Jesus can’t be God...I’m 100% sold just on that one point..

God Bless, see you on another thread....

 

[Wrangler]

I’m sold on the fact as you can read above on my post

can’t see any point of further discussion.

The point now is to persuade others to know the real God and the real man Anointed by God to take away the sins of the world.

 

[APAK]

This is the 3rd time you're accusing me of misquoting you and so I will no longer be posting to you since it's obvious I don't understand you at all.

BUT

HERE is what you posted in your post no. 4052 in its entirety:

Relax a bit...

I'm afraid you might not like my answer. The list of beliefs and doctrines comes from the word of God, the Bible. Not from fables and the writings of religious fanatics and philosophers that took an interest in the Bible at one time, and then departed from it to use it and mix it in with their own vane ideas to make a name for themselves.

If you think the above is NOT YOU calling the very persons who assembled the bible (which is the group I was referring to) then YOU need to be careful of what you write.

I was addressing the Early Church Fathers.
The ECF's assembled the NT.
That may not be what you like to hear because you might be prejudiced against them for some reason or other,
but your dislike of anything outside of the bible does NOT REPUTIATE HISTORY.
And try to remember that it's due to THEIR sacrifices and hard work that you're on a Christian forum today.

And with this I end my posts to you.
I will not be replying further.

You are wrong again GG. The folks I mentioned had a lot less to do with the assembling of the Bible, and more in what I called them -religious fanatics. Some of them recommended SOME Books only. You want to draw me into something either I never said or implied or you want to sway the discussion in your favor by callously including me in something you do not understand yourself.

Please do not do this again..

Here, get some education of the subject you want me to desperately be a part of, by using my misusing my statements of a different subject and intent altogether.

Get some education on this urgent assembly of the Bible query, first GG, before putting your foot into the mud, as I do not want any part of it, please..

The process of assembling the Bible involved multiple stages and contributors over centuries. The Old Testament, also known as the Hebrew Bible, was written well before Jesus, with the canonization process largely completed by the end of the 5th century BC. According to Jewish/Judahite tradition, Ezra, a skilled scribe and inspired Bible writer, began the work of compiling the Old Testament, and it was completed by Nehemiah.

For the New Testament, the process began with the writings of the apostles and other early Christian leaders, such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and Peter, around the end of the first century AD. These writings were circulated among early Christian communities and used in worship services.

The final compilation of the entire Bible into a single volume is attributed to Jerome, who completed the Vulgate, a Latin translation of the Bible, around 400 AD. And he, Jerome either was instructed to, or did it by himself, altered words of the apostles. He added in only peculiar latinized words that not only has caused much chaos still today, he had no business in altering the original text of the NT.

So, as you can now see clearly, folks I called the religious fanatics (2nd-4th century AD) many of the so-called church fathers, had Zero to do with the actual assembly of the Bible.

Get your facts straight next time GG and keep my words off your mitts, and do not misapply them please. They are mine as yours are your own.

 

[Wrangler]

The point now is to persuade others to know the real God and the real man Anointed by God to take away the sins of the world.

Now that you have reached a conclusion on the topic, I wonder if you can now answer the 2 questions I asked in the thread that resurrected the trinity discussion?

I wrote a 7-page piece chock full of not only Scripture but analysis of the topic, in addition to the ABC and 123's on this. To start off slow, please answer these 2 questions.

1. How do you reconcile the trinity, in general, and the claim that Jesus is God, in particular, with Jesus’ own explicit statements that he has a God (John 20:17, Revelation 3:12), and Jesus’ God is the only true God (John 17:3)?

2. What is Biblically more important:
A. 1 Timothy 1:17 (NLT) All honor and glory to God forever and ever! He (singular) is the eternal King, the unseen one (singular) who never dies; he (singular) alone (singular) is God. Amen. (emphasis added)
B. Divide glory, even among God’s servants (explicitly stated to include Jesus @ Acts 3:13)?

 

[GodsGrace]

You are wrong again GG. The folks I mentioned had a lot less to do with the assembling of the Bible, and more in what I called them -religious fanatics. Some of them recommended SOME Books only. You want to draw me into something either I never said or implied or you want to sway the discussion in your favor by callously including me in something you do not understand yourself.

Please do not do this again..

Here, get some education of the subject you want me to desperately be a part of, by using my misusing my statements of a different subject and intent altogether.

Get some education on this urgent assembly of the Bible query, first GG, before putting your foot into the mud, as I do not want any part of it, please..

The process of assembling the Bible involved multiple stages and contributors over centuries. The Old Testament, also known as the Hebrew Bible, was written well before Jesus, with the canonization process largely completed by the end of the 5th century BC. According to Jewish/Judahite tradition, Ezra, a skilled scribe and inspired Bible writer, began the work of compiling the Old Testament, and it was completed by Nehemiah.

For the New Testament, the process began with the writings of the apostles and other early Christian leaders, such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and Peter, around the end of the first century AD. These writings were circulated among early Christian communities and used in worship services.

The final compilation of the entire Bible into a single volume is attributed to Jerome, who completed the Vulgate, a Latin translation of the Bible, around 400 AD. And he, Jerome either was instructed to, or did it by himself, altered words of the apostles. He added in only peculiar latinized words that not only has caused much chaos still today, he had no business in altering the original text of the NT.

So, as you can now see clearly, folks I called the religious fanatics (2nd-4th century AD) many of the so-called church fathers, had Zero to do with the actual assembly of the Bible.

Get your facts straight next time GG and keep my words off your mitts, and do not misapply them please. They are mine as yours are your own.

You still have lots to study still Apak.
And why are you still posting to me?
Au Revoir.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus glorified body and Spirit will never pass away...it’s seated at the right hand of his Father God in heaven.

Yes, the glorified spirit body that Jesus was given at his resurrection will never pass away as the reward of immortality was granted to the son as a reward of his faithfulness to the death, thereby ensuring that all mankind had an opportunity to benefit from his sacrifice.

The body that he walked the earth with ,died on a cross, period...what happened to his human body, I don’t think is recorded, not sure, perhaps someone can put me right on that.?

On the fiftieth day after Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, the apostle Peter was inspired by God’s outpoured spirit at Pentecost, and he applied Psalm 16:10 to Jesus….
“David says respecting him, ‘ . . . you will not leave my soul in Haʹdes, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. . . . ’ . . . he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Haʹdes nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.” (Acts 2:25-32)

So Jesus’ physical body was disposed of by God, (in a manner not disclosed) so that it would never decay in a grave or tomb.…nor would his remains be used to promote false worship.

Jesus presented the value of his sacrifice to his God when he returned to heaven. The old body was sacrificed, and a new spirit body was given to him…..Those who will serve God in heaven with Jesus are also given a new spirit body at their resurrection…..thus they are “born again”.
Whilst in the flesh, they are given this hope….a “pledge” where God’s spirit identifies with their spirit that they have been adopted as “sons”….

”In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” (Eph 1:13-14)

Heb 9:11-12, 23-24….
”But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.…….Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, [old covenant sacrifices] but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.“ (ESV)

The grand spiritual temple in heaven is where Jesus will serve redeemed humanity on earth as their High Priest. Those chosen to rule with him in his Kingdom (his “saints”) will also serve there with him as “kings and priests”. (Rev 20:6)

The whole purpose of having priests is to bring redeened humankind to God in true worship, guiding and directing their earthly subjects to live and worship as their Creator first intended.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You forget that the Father wanted Him to die, the Lamb slain.

That was decided before God and the Son said -

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

God knew from the beginning (before creation) Jesus had to die and the Son voluntarily agreed.

Not true….the laying down of the Lamb’s life was prophesied after the fall, not before it.
Gen 3:15 is the Bible’s first prophesy as a response to the fall…the players are not identified at first, but it was left to the coming of the Christ, foreshadowed by the Passover Lamb that enabled God’s servant in future times to fully understand the mystery.

The expression “from the founding of the world” is an expression that means “conception” or “the laying down of seed”…..so it is “from the foundation of the world (kosmos) of (sinful) mankind”.
Before sin there was no need for a savior….God’s first purpose for the human race was for them to enjoy everlasting life on earth in paradise……with no sickness or suffering or death to take that life away……only after Adam’s sin was the need for Christ’s sacrifice necessary for the redemption of his children….so that God could restore his original purpose and have Christ’s sacrifice pay for what Adam took away from them. A sinless life was required to pay the debt….and so God provided his precious son to offer a sinless life in exchange. The restoration of God’s first purpose is stated in Rev 21:2-4…

”I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Where does Christ get his authority? What does it say that you read right over?
“This charge I have received from my Father”. What did Jesus ever have that was not from his Father? (John 15:15-18)

Read Matt 28:18…just before Jesus’ last instructions to his apostles…..
“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”

Here is a scripture that disproves the trinity…..If Jesus was “God“ then who needed to “give” him any authority? As “God” he already had “all authority”…did he not? This was authority “in heaven and on earth”.
Think about that for a moment, if you can comprehend what it means?

Human logic.

God created human logic and we are made in his image….so, God is not illogical…but humans can sometimes twist things to suit their own logic…isn’t this what the devil did in Eden? He made the offer of the fruit logical to Eve, even beneficial…..but he knew it meant her death…he didn’t care….he would just twist the scriptures to suggest that humans don’t really die, but invent an immortal soul to live on in an invisible realm somewhere….

There are no “immortal souls” in the Bible. It was a lie that people even today, are still swallowing.

 

[Pierac]

You witnessed God raising Jesus up did you?

The only way I could possibly know that Jesus was raised in his glorified body to heaven.

Would be by whose testimony?

You seem to post a lot of scripture..we must also understand spiritual matters?

Wow... that such scripture proves you wrong.... You want to go spiritual... grab your tradition of men ankles little Girl!!!

We communicate with God via our spirit ...as we are “ Born Of The Spirit “ ...Spirit gives birth to spirit

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Context
The Resurrection Body
…44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-givingspirit. 46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual

How do I know “ not”what things?

Why would I need to know such things?

Salvation is not based on believing or not believing the trinity?

I speak from the heart not from the emotions....for it’s from the heart/ spirit that one knows God?

Who testifies Of Jesus...just the Bible?

Here is another commentary for you to read.

Together, they form the Holy Trinity, sharing the same essence. This means they share the same divine nature but have different roles and relationships within the Godhead. Though they have different functions, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work in perfect harmony, accomplishing God's divine purposes

RJ...says...I’m starting to see that they most definitely share the same nature as God...as in , that the Holy Spirit and Jesus nature are both divine....Jesus had no ordinary human nature...if he had, then it would have been a sin nature.....therefore he couldn’t possibly have atoned for our sins..his nature had to be divine...that’s my belief and thoughts..not forcing it onto anyone....but, it’s just as valid as anyone else’s opinion / interpretation of scripture.

Also apparently the Holy Spirit is also that of Jesus Spirit.....what do you make of that?

By the way, I’m learning ...have you reached a point where like Jesus you are all knowing in spirit?

God is a Living Spirit, we must be Born Of The Spirit to communicate with him...that can take years and years to understand, as we were taught by the world....now as a Born Again we are taught Spirit language...hope that makes sense, if it doesn’t ask and I will try and explain such things.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16​

​

King James Version​

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.​

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Let me give you a bonus... as you mostly agree with me little girl...

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my latest research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.


Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.


The Spirit of your Father is the Holy Spirit.... There is No separate being called the Holy Spirit... That's why it's not prayed to or worshiped, and no seat on a throne!


How do you not know these things????

 

[Rich R]

Sure Jesus (as human) was not omniscient, was not omnipotent as we read in -

Filipp 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Filipp 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Filipp 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Nothing new.

Check out the first 5 verses of Philippians 2 for the context. Take special notice that all Christians are told to have the same mind as Jesus. So if he thought he was God, we should also? I don't think so. Again, context explains verses 6-8.

 

[Ritajanice]

Wow... that such scripture proves you wrong.... You want to go spiritual... grab your tradition of men ankles little Girl!!!

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!


Let me give you a bonus... as you mostly agree with me little girl...

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my latest research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.


Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.


The Spirit of your Father is the Holy Spirit..

The Holy Spirit is Gods Witness/ testimony, he is not fully God.

You see ,The “ Spirit “ testifies with our spirit that we are Gods Children.....we have been Born Of God, we aren’t God and God couldn’t possibly come down as he is and birth me in his Spirit, that’s why he sends forth his seed from out of his mouth, the seed is the Holy Spirit...

The rebirth is a Living spiritual rebirth....Gods Spirit testifies with our spirit , that means as he’s birthing our spirit / indwelling our spirit permanently he talks to it, testifies Of God + Jesus to our spirit....is that not “ mind blowing.?

.. There is No separate being called the Holy Spirit... That's why it's not prayed to or worshiped, and no seat on a throne!

By the way, is the Holy Spirit referred to an “ it” in scripture.

Please reread your posts to me...you are telling me rather than discussing both ways with me....you are only communicating with me..your way and aren’t listening to what I’m saying...as you have yet to address anything that I posted....can you see that you are doing that?

Let’s both humble ourselves before the Lord and “ Listen” to what each other have to say...can we do that?
Otherwise there is no point of further discussion is there?

How do you not know these things????

You have given your own commentary...and in all honesty , a lot of it makes no sense..I’m being honest and relaying this to you......are you understanding my posts or do they also make no sense to you?....plus a lot of my questions were unanswered, which is a shame...as it has turned into, your one way of discussion...can you see that?

We are Born Of The Spirit, who happens to be the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the seed that penetrates our heart / spirit and takes up residence in our spirit, our spirit has been birthed, it’s been Born Again by Gods seed, who came out of Gods mouth/ word, which can never perish or die...does any of that make sense to you?

 

[Ritajanice]

Let me give you a bonus... as you mostly agree with me little girl...

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my latest research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.

Continuation...I hope this helps you understand that we are the spirit children of God...we are partakers Of the divine nature.

◄ Romans 8 ►

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Walking by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption to sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Future Glory (2 Corinthians 5:1–10) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. God Works in All Things (Ephesians 1:3–14) 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. More than Conquerors (Psalm 44:1–26) 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”g 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Ritajanice]

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.


Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Continuation of discussion with @Pierac .




Finger of God....seed of God.....Born Of God....Born Of The Spirit...etc....not really sure what you are trying to point out about the finger of God?

It all amounts to the word of God, whatever comes out of the mouth of God it will never return void?

The Holy Spirit has been given authority by God to cast out demons etc, he does the will of the Father ..now, on earth, who do you think supernaturally births our spirit into Christ?

And please, rather than dismiss my questions to you ,please answer them , like I’m being very honest and answering as best I can, all of yours, a lot of what you post from your own commentary about said scripture makes no sense to my spirit, with respect....

That’s your understanding/ interpretation/ opinion of said scripture.

If my posts make no sense to you, it’s best that you either say or that you don’t understand what I’m posting , when we discuss we both need to discuss openly and honestly..what the other is posting, ask me questions, rather than trying to control or take over the whole discussion.otherwise it’s a one way discussion.....I’m also learning to do this.
We both need to listen and communicate with each other......
If you aren’t listening to what I have to say and only want to get your own understanding/ interpretation/ opinion of scripture across...then there is no point in discussing with you....as you are trying to get across your teaching , and that your teaching is the only way, ...we must stay very open minded to everything that is spoken......

Then we can get an understanding of where the other one is coming from.

 

[Magdala]

What anti-trinitarians don't realize, is that they can cite all the verses they want and say "This and that verse shows that Jesus isn't God!" and that interpretation is wrong, for the fact that John said Jesus is God:

John said, "God was the Word" (Jn. 1:1), and that "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (Jn. 1:14). What name was given to the Word (God) Who became human? "Jesus".

Anti-trinitarians may not understand how Jesus is God, but John said that He is, and thus it is understandable, and I and others can explain it, but many aren't allowing themselves to understand.

 

[Ritajanice]

Wow... that such scripture proves you wrong.... You want to go spiritual... grab your tradition of men ankles little Girl!!!

I asked you a question and was met with this?

You witnessed God raising Jesus up did you?

The only way I could possibly know that Jesus was raised in his glorified body to heaven.

Would be by whose testimony?

You seem to post a lot of scripture..we must also understand spiritual matters?

Pierac said...Wow... that such scripture proves you wrong.... You want to go spiritual... grab your tradition of men ankles little Girl!!!



RJ says.......Then you just continued to carry on stating only what you had to say, without even explaining or addressing where I was wrong according to you....what was I wrong about?

You never answered one of my spirit question above, I asked you by whose testimony as was met with you saying this....

Pierac said...Wow... that such scripture proves you wrong.... You want to go spiritual... grab your tradition of men ankles little Girl!!!





RJ continues saying.........I have explained in my posts above to you ...I also hope and pray that you open your heart and mind to God, that includes me also...so that we can discuss properly and listen to one another...so far, I only see you trying to control the discussion .....I don’t see or hear you listening to what I have to say....

Not sure if you actually read my last posts on here..I came to the heart knowledge that if Jesus was fully God...as in all knowing ....then why doesn’t he know this that I post below if he’s fully God....I’ve yet to see a trinitarian explain this away....

The Bible on just that one point , Jesus doesn’t know the time or hour of his return....God is all knowing, there is nothing he doesn’t know.....Therefore Jesus can’t be God...I’m 100% sold just on that one point..
That scripture just can’t be explained away...no matter how much scripture trinitarians post, interpreting/ voicing that Jesus is fully God....he can’t be as the word shows...

 

[Ritajanice]

So Jesus’ physical body was disposed of by God, (in a manner not disclosed) so that it would never decay in a grave or tomb.…nor would his remains be used to promote false worship.

Jesus presented the value of his sacrifice to his God when he returned to heaven. The old body was sacrificed, and a new spirit body was given to him…..Those who will serve God in heaven with Jesus are also given a new spirit body at their resurrection…..thus they are “born again”.

On earth today Aunty..imo/ belief, our spirit has already been Born Again...we are spirit children of God on earth today...we are being conformed into the image of Jesus as we as the Born Again are now partakers Of the divine nature, we belong to God , our spirit has been reunited back to God...it’s been birthed into the Spirit of Christ, we are one in spirit with him, we are taught by the indwelling Holy Spirit to become obedient to God and to surrender our will over to him, ...it’s called the sanctification process....we were once of the world....we now have a whole new life in the Spirit....we start our spiritual journey the moment our spirit was birthed into Christ/ it became Born Again and Alive in Christ, by Gods Living testimony.

When our old body of sin dies, our spirit will go straight back to be with God....we then I believe wait for our glorified bodies to be raised....as our spirit within has already been resurrected and brought to life in Christ while we walk on earth now......Born Agains represents Jesus on the earth today...we also represent the Father, as I’m sure you have seen on many of my posts.
I have been called to Glorify God and talk/ preach all about his mighty power, that is on earth today, how his witness the Holy Spirit, brings our spirit from death to life....God is a Mighty force, whatever comes out of his mouth will never return void to him....his word accomplishes all that it’s set out to do....there is nothing that can stop the word of God....I reverence him with fear and trembling, meaning I would NEVER go against his word knowingly..that he has spoken to me....I would sooner die.....I also know in my spirit the consequences I could inflict on myself if I will fully went against him...it could cost me my life, that I do know....
Also remember that we aren’t Jesus or God....we are being conformed into Jesus image....therefore I don’t believe we will ever be free from our old man...our minds are being renewed daily to think like Christ, also act as Christ would have acted.

Our old man still raises his ugly head in us at times, as I’m sure you can see also in some of my posts, it’s self that’s talking....but, the old man will/ does get less and less as we surrender our will over to the Spirit, we are also learning to walk in obedience.....we are being prepared for heaven.

My opinion/ thoughts and beliefs Aunty....same as yours....thanks for sharing what you believe.

Whilst in the flesh, they are given this hope….a “pledge” where God’s spirit identifies with their spirit that they have been adopted as “sons”….

”In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” (Eph 1:13-14)

Heb 9:11-12, 23-24….
”But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.…….Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, [old covenant sacrifices] but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.“ (ESV)

The grand spiritual temple in heaven is where Jesus will serve redeemed humanity on earth as their High Priest. Those chosen to rule with him in his Kingdom (his “saints”) will also serve there with him as “kings and priests”. (Rev 20:6)

The whole purpose of having priests is to bring redeened humankind to God in true worship, guiding and directing their earthly subjects to live and worship as their Creator first intended

Yes Aunty, this is your understanding of scripture...which I can’t agree with...but I do respect your belief and would never dismiss it again...all beliefs should be respected....of course at times I do fall short...I’m still learning to respect the belief of others ...to not criticise/ poke fun at or make accusations about their beliefs, like calling them satanic or devil worshippers.....only God can judge what we believe.

 

[Ritajanice]

Here is a scripture that disproves the trinity…..If Jesus was “God“ then who needed to “give” him any authority? As “God” he already had “all authority”…did he not? This was authority “in heaven and on earth”.
Think about that for a moment, if you can comprehend what it means?

That’s a really good point Aunty, in fact it’s an excellent point...

Jesus as you say was given authority and could only use that authority / power by the guidance of his Father...he was led by his Father and all that came out of his mouth was from the Father as Jesus Spirit was 100% in harmony with his Father’s Spirit....complete and utter surrender of his will and complete and utter harmony with his Spirit Father God......an amazing man...and there has and never will be one like him....what an honour and privilege it is, to be conformed into the image of the Father’s Son.....perfect / Holy and without blemish in every way.....Praise God for Jesus!!!

If Jesus had been fully God, then he would have been under his own authority, clearly he wasn’t...

Also Jesus doesn’t know the time or hour of his return...only his Father knows that....therefore Jesus can’t possibly be fully God....only in part....

 

[Ritajanice]

@Pierac ..I was brought back to what you posted below.

We communicate with God via our spirit ...as we are “ Born Of The Spirit “ ...Spirit gives birth to spirit

@Pierac posted.
On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit."

The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!


RJ replies..Jesus was led by the Spirit Of His Father.

Just like we the Born Again on earth today are led by the Holy Spirit, who is Gods Living testimony....our flesh will start to die the moment our spirit has been birthed into,Christ...the flesh is at war with the Spirit, as a Born Again it’s inevitable that the Spirit will eventually overcome our flesh/ old man...it becomes less and less as we are being conformed into Jesus image, by the power within us who indwells our spirit?


Jesus was also in the flesh, yet, as Gods begotten Son, he had an advantage over us, right from the beginning Jesus Spirit was in complete harmony with that of his Father’s...as was his will...remember he came out of the mouth of God.then grew in Mary’s womb......whereas the Born Again have been Born Of God’s Living seed...our spirit that is....Jesus was the first begotten Son....we are the Born Agains...who have been spiritually Born from the seed of God....that’s a good starting point to discuss, either here or shall I start another thread, so that we can just specifically discuss the subject of the Living spiritual birth?

 

[Wrangler]

If Jesus had been fully God, then he would have been under his own authority, clearly he wasn’t...

Also Jesus doesn’t know the time or hour of his return...only his Father knows that....therefore Jesus can’t possibly be fully God....only in part....

There are many text proofs against the trinity dogma. Consider these top 12:

1. Overall Bible Context: The trinity is not in Scripture - not the word and not the concept. The doctrine of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once! This explains why there is not once verse says it is important to believe in the trinity.
2. With the possible exception of Luke, the entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day. Therefore, one must read into unitarian text an idea that contradicts their over arching teaching.
3. HS: The easiest way to defeat the trinity is through the Holy Spirit, who is not a person and does not even have a name! It has no authority.
4. OT: We are told God's eternal name - YHWH - about 5,000 times to be remembered for all generations (who Jesus tells us to keep this name holy.)
5. YHWH is identified using singular pronouns 7,000 times.
6. NT Inequality: God the Father is the only God identified in the NT, which is contained in every epistle.
7. Jesus taught us to pray only to God the Father (not the trinity) and Jesus did not teach the trinity.
8. Jesus died. God is eternal.
9. Jesus admitted he has a God (the Father), who is greater than him, which explains why he submitted to God's will, i.e., 2 separate wills.
10. Jesus knew less than the Father (the hour of his own return).
11. Juxtaposition is ubiquitous.
    • "God" - in his unitarian nature - so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
    • "God" - in his unitarian nature - is the head of Christ.
    • "God" - in his unitarian nature - raised Jesus from the dead.
12. Gospels all testify Jesus is the Son of God (none testify he is God the Son). The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the Bible. From Chapter 5 alone:
    • v19: Jesus can do nothing by himself; does only what he sees God the Father do.
    • v22: authority given to the son.
    • v24: Jesus sent by God.
    • v26 The Father has life in himself, who has granted this same power to the son.
    • v44: The Father alone is God.
    • v46: Moses wrote (Deut 18:15-18) about "me," - the expected prophet, who God chose this man among the people of Israel to put his words in his mouth.

It's rather comical to see trinitarians refuse to admit the validity of this and put up for consideration only their preferred verses that they have to take out of context while implying their Lord is a liar for he said the Father is the only true God.

Worst of all, trinitarians take this wholly absent from Scripture dogma as if it is the central message of Scripture, that one's salvation and even being a Christian depends on believing it. The trinity is a 4th century, manmade IDOL. Why else would there be such passion, 4,000 posts defending what contradicts Scripture?

 

[Aunty Jane]

What anti-trinitarians don't realize, is that they can cite all the verses they want and say "This and that verse shows that Jesus isn't God!" and that interpretation is wrong, for the fact that John said Jesus is God:

But did he? If you read John 1:1 in Greek, it doesn’t say what is translated into English….

John wrote, "the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1), and that "the Word became flesh (human) and dwelt among us" (Jn. 1:14). What name was given to the Word (God) Who became human? Jesus.

The Greek says…”In the beginning was the Word (ho logos) and the Word was with God (ho theos) and the Word was god” (theos).
Jesus is never called “ho theos” in any passage of scripture…only Yahweh is called “ho theos“ which means “THE God”….it was the only way that the Greeks could identify the singular deity of the Jews, who was at that time, a God with no name.
Jesus is called “theos” because the meaning, if you look it up in a good concordance, is “any god or goddess”, describing “deities or divinities”.

From Christendom’s viewpoint, treating “theos” as if it only means “God” with a capital “G” is an error.

If the divine name had still been in use, there would never have been a basis for the trinity to be have been adopted by an apostate church in the first place.

Anti-trinitarians may not understand how Jesus is God, but John said that He is, and thus it is understandable, and I and others can explan it, but many aren't allowing themselves to understand.

Jesus never once said he was “God”…..if he had we would not be having this conversation.
Nothing about the trinity is understandable….it is unscriptural and illogical.

 

[Brakelite]

How can a perfect divine being, God the Father, beget a Son that is of a different nature...or 'gene'...or kind to the Father? If He isn't God, then what is He? Did God establish a generational system of expanding nature... kind after their own kind... but break it Himself, yet use the same terms of reference as we would naturally understand it... Father and Son?