Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[GodsGrace]

Another example of trinitarians doctrinally investing in vague verses while dismissing explicit verses, like 1 COR 8:6.

Wrangler I thought you were half intelligent.

1 Cor 8:6 is IRRELEVANT because ALL CHRISTIANS believe there is ONLY ONE GOD.

And that's ALL 1 Cor 8:6 is stating.

I think Rich got it and maybe he's going on to bigger and better things...
something not everyone can do it seems.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because "tri" does not mean one.

Oh.
Your intelligence shines through!

Don't be so happy.

 

[Wrangler]

SOME DOCTRINE IS WRONG.

Pick 1:

1. The trinity doctrine is wrong because it contradicts the Bible.
2. The Bible is wrong because it does not have an explicit teaching of the trinity.

I pick 1, the trinity is wrong doctrine. It's wrong because it is not in Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

1 Cor 8:6 is IRRELEVANT because ALL CHRISTIANS believe there is ONLY ONE GOD.

The best argument is the Bible is irrelevant! Wow! The things you read on the internet.

1 COR 8:6 says more than merely that is one God; it says that one God is the Father. It does not say that one God is a trinity.

 

[GodsGrace]

GG, really, what is your personal take of being a Christian. You do have a person view of your relationship with Christ, right? What makes you personally a Christian, beside the denomination or building you worship at?

Are you really asking?
BTW, my PERSONAL relationship with God belongs to me and I certainly don't wish to share it with anyone on this thread who cannot even agree that JESUS IS GOD.

I've considered starting a post on this, but I tried it on another forum and I found it just takes too much time.
Sorry 'bout that.

So, instead of speaking about my relationship with God Almighty, creator of heaven and earth....
how about discussing what a Christian is supposed to believe?
AND
Where this list even comes from...

 

[GodsGrace]

The best argument is the Bible is irrelevant! Wow! The things you read on the internet.

1 COR 8:6 says more than merely that is one God; it says that one God is the Father. It does not say that one God is a trinity.

I'm through speaking to you Wrangler.
Go get your composure back.
Your statements are rather silly and I'm very serious.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm through speaking to you Wrangler.
Go get your composure back.
Your statements are rather silly and I'm very serious.

I'm quite composed. Personal attack. Proof you lost the argument.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well if we made 1 Cor 8:6 relevant, then there is a big contradiction between it and Titus 2:13.

How's that Rich?
1 Cor 8:6 states that there is One God.
Which, of course, there is. Unless Christianity has become pantheistic.

Titus 2:13 speak of our Great God and Savior, Jesus.

So, it sounds like Jesus is God.
Good. One step ahead.

Now we need to figure out HOW Jesus is God.

Some just don't want to go there.
So they join cults or sects that believe as they do.

Which is fine...I'm not here to change the world.
BUT
I am here...to make sure it's understood that IF you want to define yourself as CHRISTian,,,
then you MUST believe the Christian tenets.

And we already know what they are from 2 thousand years ago.

I'm not sure how 1 Cor 8:6 could be saying anything other than the only God is the Father. Is Jesus the Father? On the other hand, There is much debate on how the Greek of Titus 2:13 should be translated. Even Trinitarian scholars admit it doesn't have to be translated the way it is in most English Bibles. One such highly regarded Trinitarian Bible scholar is Henry Alferd.

Yes, Rich, I know,,,there must be a comma in Titus 2:13.
And some theologian that agrees with you will state this.
BUT
the bible must be accepted literally when a statement is literal.

If it meant what Mr. Alferd thinks...it would have been like this:
OUR GREAT GOD, AND [OUR] SAVIOR, JESUS.

This is because of how other languages are spoken.
Actually, I think this would be true for English too.

OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR.....one thought.

Another verse that would contradict your understanding of Titus is:

John 14:28,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

Good try again Rich.
Let ME ask YOU this:

When Jesus was on earth...
did He have all the powers that God Father has?
No. He didn't.

Philippians 2:5-8
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Being made in the likeness of man....

Jesus did retain some attributes,,,but He certainly was not, for instance, omnipresent while on earth.

​

One part of the Godhead is greater than another? I don't thing that aligns with trinity doctrine.

We don't call it A PART of the Godhead.
It's A PERSON of the Godhead.
(so much to know).

And, every PERSON is equal.

Are you a Father?
A Son?
A brother?

Are YOU 3 people or 1?

It's not exactly like that, but it's pretty close.


Is water in 3 forms?
LIQUID
GAS
SOLID

Is sit still water?


How many points does a triangle have?
Is it 3 triangles?

In any case, these verses must all agree one way or the other. We can't have contradictions or we have nothing.

Amen to that!
How many times have I said that the bible cannot contradict itself.
Do you see a contradiction here?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm quite composed. Personal attack. Proof you lost the argument.

Oh. Yes. That's composure alright.
LOL

 

[ProDeo]

I didn’t say he wasn’t divine.....you will see that in my posts .

He had to be divine in part, as he was the Son Of God....that goes without saying...he just wasn’t fully God, so far that is my belief.

Well, Jesus said so Himself -

John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

 

[Ritajanice]

Every testimony is nice...we all have one.
Problem is, it's great for edification...
but worthless for doctrine.

I'd have to agree with @Angelina.
Born Again is NOT a denomination.
It's a state of being....with God.

Born Again is exactly what God says it is.....we have been supernaturally birthed into Christ, our spirit is as one in Christ.

You can say you're a born again follower of Christ..it's OK.
Some good portion of the Flower Children back in the 60's were following Christ.
Unfortunately, this is not what defines you as Christian.

Only Gods Living testimony can define who we are in Christ.....

No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think you understand that the Holy Spirit is Alive And Active in His Born Again children.

Of course....this is exactly what I stated to you...you're just stating it back.


So all those verses were not enough for you?
So what we have here is this:

Matthew 15:14
14They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”

The verses you posted, did not state that Jesus was God...correct.

No RJ.,.let's go there.

You were replying to this statement of mine - which I consider to be very important:

And isn't THIS the entire problem?
Why are our understandings so far apart Ritajanice?
This must surely mean that
ONE IS RIGHT
and
ONE IS WRONG.

So basically what you're saying is that a person could believe whatever he wants to believe.
IOW,,,if you have this living testimony you speak of...then everything you believe is correct.
But, other born again Christians that don't believe as YOU do apparently don't have this living testimony,
so THEY are wrong.

Please don’t start putting words into my mouth again....I have said nowhere that those who don’t believe as I do aren’t Born Again...

So HOW LONG do you think Christianity will last under those conditions?

And, as I've been asking for months now...
HOW can we know THE TRUTH?

You need to ask God for the truth.

I already know the truth, that God and Jesus exists, I don’t need to know the truth from any human...only from God’s Living testimony his Living Holy Spirit ...when he birthed my spirit into his..Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Surely there must be a way...
other than the personal belief of someone.

By Gods Living testimony....who can prove that, no one...it’s biblical....plus how can one explain supernatural divine heart revelation...they can’t.

And herein lies the problem.
Maybe before stating doctrine you could try to UNDERSTAND the written Word of God?

I understand the written word as I’ve been brought to understand it in my spirit...instead of voicing that I don’t understand the word of God..maybe say, I don’t understand the word the same as you do...

IOW,,,How come the Jews believed the verses I posted...
FOR WHICH JESUS DIED,,,
but YOU do not?

Ponder it while you're busy being a living testimony.

I’m not a Jew, I’m Born Again, therefore I have been grafted into the true vine...I said I don’t believe that Jesus is God...I said nothing about his death...no idea what you are referring to here.

Of course God is only ONE.
WHO is saying otherwise?

You said Jesus was God.

This comes from not understanding what Christianity teaches...
The Trinity.

There is no scripture that teaches that there is a Trinity.

How could we resolve the OT with the NT?
Does God change?
I thought He remained the same.

A Born Again is not under the Old covenant, they are under the New Covenant.

Could all those verses I posted BE WRONG!


That would be very serious.

Could you give me that verse?
Jesus said He and the Father are ONE.

Can you give me a verse where God says that Jesus is God?

You say you're born again in spirit...
are YOU and the Father One?

I am one in spirit with Christ as a Born Again...which doesn’t make me Christ...one in spirit means, we belong to him in spirit, we are under the leading and authority of the Spirit...once we are Born Again, chosen and predestined to become Born Again, then we will be conformed into Jesus image...tell me how else can we be conformed into Jesus image if our spirit isn’t Born Again?

Right...in YOUR opinion.

So how do we find out the truth?
And I mean REALLY....

Already tried to help you understand this.

Apparently...but it says this under your avatar.

I am a Born Again Christ follower....

This living testimony is a wonderful thing to behold.

BUT
You are NOT going by the word of God because you don't believe Jesus is God and all the writers believe He is and stated so and I gave you many verses.

I am going by what I believe the Holy Spirit has brought me to believe/ understand, which is obviously not the same as what you believe...no problem...Jesus is not God...that’s what you believe the word of God to be saying.

RJ...you're not under any authority PERIOD.
But you're supposed to be under the authority of God.
Now Angelina will not be changing your name to BORN AGAIN.
But you might want to suggest OTHER FAITH.

Once again, you are telling me that I’m not under the authority of the Spirit....disagree, I am Gods child and am 100% under the authority of the Holy Spirit, who does the will of God through his children.

Matthew 7:21-23​

​

King James Version​

​

​

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sorry, but I don't write my opinions.
You keep saying this as if we're all supposed to have our own opinion.
Do YOU have your own opinion?
HOW can you know it's correct?

You do write your opinions, same as everyone else, you can’t prove what you say is Gods truth, no more than I can...

There you go.
Now you believe in predestination.
Now you're into heresy.
BTW, find out what heresy means before you start complaining.

All according to you....I was chosen and predestined to become Born Again just as Gods word says.
Of course I believe in predestination....it’s 100% biblical...which you don’t seem to understand what it means....which is quite understandable, going by reading your posts.

 

[APAK]

Are you really asking?
BTW, my PERSONAL relationship with God belongs to me and I certainly don't wish to share it with anyone on this thread who cannot even agree that JESUS IS GOD.

I've considered starting a post on this, but I tried it on another forum and I found it just takes too much time.
Sorry 'bout that.

So, instead of speaking about my relationship with God Almighty, creator of heaven and earth....
how about discussing what a Christian is supposed to believe?
AND
Where this list even comes from...

Relax a bit...

I'm afraid you might not like my answer. The list of beliefs and doctrines comes from the word of God, the Bible. Not from fables and the writings of religious fanatics and philosophers that took an interest in the Bible at one time, and then departed from it to use it and mix it in with their own vane ideas to make a name for themselves.

 

[Ritajanice]

Well, Jesus said so Himself -

John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Sorry, none of those verses say that Jesus is fully God, Jesus was one with Gods Spirit......which means that he carried out all that the Fathers Spirit asked him to do.

 

[ProDeo]

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

​

John 17:22,

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

​

Jesus certainly wasn't praying that we would all be God. I'm thinking that one thing being "one with" another doesn't mean that the two things are the same thing. We commonly use a phrase like, "the crowd acted as one." I think we understand it to simply mean many people shared the same goal.

Then there is the issue that neither the words "God the Son" or "Jesus is God" are in the actual scriptures. On the other hand, there are at least 7 verses that clearly say Jesus was a man:

Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, 1 Tim 2:5, John 4:29, John 8:40, 1 Cor 15:21.​

Then there are at least a couple of verses that specifically say God is not a man:

Hos 11:9 & Num 23:19​

​

So given that Jesus is a man and God is not a man, how could Jesus possibly be God?

​

Every day more Christians are abandoning tradition and accepting the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures as their source of truth. More and more are believing the simple declaration in John's gospel,

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

​

John wrote that we might believe that Jesus is the anointed one, that he is the son of God. That is a far cry from saying he is God the son.

Welcome to the discussion.

I am quoting Scripture GG posted today, it would be a great start

She posted -

-------------------

You want scripture re believing that Jesus is God?

John 8:58
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

John 10:30
30"I and the Father are one.”

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

WHO IS THE WORD? FIND OUT BECAUSE IN JOHN 1:14 IT BECOMES FLESH.

John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Colossians 2:9
29For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Hebrews 1:3
3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 5:18
18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Titus 2:13
13Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

 

[Rich R]

Oops. This just came up.

So, IOW, WE are just like Jesus?

It's getting better and better.

PARTAKERS...is this what Paul said about Jesus?:

Colossians 2:9
9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

and the writer of Hebrews states:

Hebrews 1:3
3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


Rich, you know someone that is upholding the universe?

I'm not sure which Bible version you are quoting. Maybe the English Standard version? That is the only version I found that said Jesus upheld the "universe." About a dozen other versions I looked at, including the original Greek, say he upholds all "things." The question becomes what are those "things?"

I find it interesting that verse 2 says that God appointed Jesus as heir to all "things." There may be a clue to what the things are. But one thing is for sure, verse 2 says that God appointed Jesus to be the heir of all things. Seems to me that if Jesus were God, he'd already have those things. Did one part of God lack something until another part gave it to him?

 

[Ritajanice]

I'm through speaking to you Wrangler.
Go get your composure back.
Your statements are rather silly and I'm very serious.

Pot kettle black.

the pot calling the kettle black​

used to convey that the criticisms a person is aiming at someone else could equally well apply to themselves.

GG said .
Wrangler I thought you were half intelligent......

RJ says....and you accused me of immaturity.....the above is lacking “spiritual maturity in Christ “......we’ve all been there...unfortunately you’re unable to admit your immaturity....it’s all there for everyone to see, on nearly all of your posts..

 

[Jack]

Hebrews 1:8-10
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

 

[Wrangler]

1 Cor 8:6 states that there is One God.

False witness. Regarding God, it stated there is one God, the Father (not one God, the Trinity).

 

[Rich R]

How's that Rich?
1 Cor 8:6 states that there is One God.
Which, of course, there is. Unless Christianity has become pantheistic.

Yes, but it identifies who the one God is, namely, the Father. I don't think even the staunchest Trinitarian would say Jesus is the Father.

Titus 2:13 speak of our Great God and Savior, Jesus.

So, it sounds like Jesus is God.
Good. One step ahead.

Now we need to figure out HOW Jesus is God.

Some just don't want to go there.
So they join cults or sects that believe as they do.

Which is fine...I'm not here to change the world.
BUT
I am here...to make sure it's understood that IF you want to define yourself as CHRISTian,,,
then you MUST believe the Christian tenets.

And we already know what they are from 2 thousand years ago.


Yes, Rich, I know,,,there must be a comma in Titus 2:13.
And some theologian that agrees with you will state this.
BUT
the bible must be accepted literally when a statement is literal.

If it meant what Mr. Alferd thinks...it would have been like this:
OUR GREAT GOD, AND [OUR] SAVIOR, JESUS.

This is because of how other languages are spoken.
Actually, I think this would be true for English too.

OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR.....one thought.

Well, as you correctly pointed out, a comma could make the difference. I suspect you know that there was no punctuation whatsoever in the original Greek text of Titus' letter. So the presence or absence of a comma really can't be used as a deciding factor. But what could be used to decide what Titus is saying is how Jesus is portrayed in other verses. Sorry to keep bringing it up, but 1 Cor 8:6 is still in the Bible and it does say quite clearly that only the Father is God. While Titus can go one way or the other, Corinthians is crystal clear. I would think it prudent to understand an unclear verse in light of a clear verse instead of the other way around.

Good try again Rich.
Let ME ask YOU this:

When Jesus was on earth...
did He have all the powers that God Father has?
No. He didn't.

Philippians 2:5-8
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Being made in the likeness of man....

Jesus did retain some attributes,,,but He certainly was not, for instance, omnipresent while on earth.

I think I understand what you are saying. But in any case, according to Phil 2:5-8, whatever was in Jesus' mind should be in our mind also. So if Jesus thought he was God, then we should also? I might also point out that one thing being in the "form" of another thing does not make the two things equal. After his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples in "another form" (Mark 16:12). Was Jesus suddenly not God for a while?

We don't call it A PART of the Godhead.
It's A PERSON of the Godhead.
(so much to know).

And, every PERSON is equal.

Are you a Father?
A Son?
A brother?

Are YOU 3 people or 1?

It's not exactly like that, but it's pretty close.

I'd stop with the "it's not exactly like that." It's not really at all close to explaining the trinity.

A better analogy would be I'm Rich the Father, Rich the Son, and Rich the Brother. Unless we abandon the agreed upon meaning of simple words, that makes no sense whatsoever. And if God did abandon the meaning of simple words, how would we know where else He may have done that? The Bible would be meaningless!

Is water in 3 forms?
LIQUID
GAS
SOLID

Is sit still water?


How many points does a triangle have?
Is it 3 triangles?

Making that align with trinity doctrine would mean that liquid is a "person," gas is a "person," and solid is a "person" and yet there is only one person. That doesn't help make the case.

Amen to that!
How many times have I said that the bible cannot contradict itself.
Do you see a contradiction here?

If one verse says Jesus is God and another says he is not God, then yes, there would be a glaring contradiction. That's precisely why I believe all verses say he is God or they all say he is not God. I think there are a few relatively unclear verses that could be taken as saying he is God. But I see many many more that say he is the son of God. I find it more prudent to make the few unclear verses fit with the many clear verses. I'll admit there are some verses that I don't fully understand, but that doesn't change the fact that many verses say Jesus is in fact the son of God.

In the spirit of brotherly love, I'll read your reply, but I probably won't continue debating the subject. I don't want to create friction in the body. I love all Christians, Trinitarian or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Personally after reading and participating in this massive thread I now prefer to say that Jesus is God the Son instead of Jesus is God. While both are true since God the Father and God the Son are ONE, the phrase Jesus is God might give the reader the wrong impression that Jesus is God the Father.

YMMV.

I would agree...except:
Why should WE be watering it down to make it acceptable?
No.
Nothing will please those that do not hold Christian beliefs.
The Witnesses tell me this...one is a pretty good friend of mine, we've had to stop discussing doctrine.
She tells me,,,but Jesus is the SON OF GOD.
NO.
Jesus is God.
Period.
I've become very strong about this - not sure why.

It's a little bit like the problem we Protestants have with stating that Mary is the Mother of God.
Yes, it brings to mind God Father.
But denying this creates a load of problems doctrinally.
I think that some doctrine we just have to accept once we've come to understand it in some way...
maybe not the perfect way.