Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Ritajanice]

See.
Wrong doctrine.
You're a Jehovah Witness!

LOL.ive already given you my Living testimony....?

It says CHRISTIAN under you're avatar.
Whether you're born again is not for me to decide.

I wonder if I can change it to Born Again...I have messaged Angelina and asked if she can change it to Born Again @GodsGrace ....if not ,then it will remain Christian....I am a Born Again Christ follower.

Wether I’m Born Again you couldn’t possibly know....you couldn’t see the Holy Spirit giving birth to my spirit...Spirit gives birth to spirit....that comes by = supernatural Living divine heart revelation.

Actually, If God believes Jesus is God, then YOU should too.

God never said his Son was him...

And isn't THIS the entire problem?
Why are our understandings so far apart Ritajanice?
This must surely mean that
ONE IS RIGHT
and
ONE IS WRONG.

One must have the Living testimony....best not go there.

You want scripture re believing that Jesus is God?

John 8:58
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

John 10:30
30"I and the Father are one.”

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

WHO IS THE WORD? FIND OUT BECAUSE IN JOHN 1:14 IT BECOMES FLESH.

John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Colossians 2:9
29For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Hebrews 1:3
3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 5:18
18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Titus 2:13
13Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

None of what you have posted says that Jesus was God.

Here, as in Matthew 12:18, Jesus is the servant of God. Matthew tells us that Jesus was the same servant of God spoken of in Isaiah 42:1. So, according to Matthew and Peter, Jesus is not God, but God's servant. The Old Testament repeatedly says that God is alone (e.g. Isaiah 45:5).


Jesus was one with God in Spirit, in perfect harmony with his “ Father God”...” SPIRIT “

You have come to your own understanding , that the scripture that you have posted is saying that Jesus was fully God.....my understanding of the scripture that you posted, is saying nothing of the sort..imo...

There are more....

The first part of your statement is correct.
You should start finding out what it means to be defined as CHRISTIAN...that would be good.

I don’t need to find out what it means to be defined as Christian.

I go by the word of God who defines me as his spirit child,/ Born Again/ regenerated/ Spirit gives birth to spirit.....all according to his Living testimony.

And maybe, in the meantime, you could remove the word CHRISTIAN from under your avatar?

I will if I can...as my spirit has been birthed into the Spirit of Christ...I’m not under any authority by you to change my avatar...if Angelina can change it so be it, if not it will remain as Christian...as I’m a Born Again Christ follower....

I don't have opinions Ritajanice.
What I write are NOT opinions.

What you write are the same as what I write, apart from God’s word, you write your own opinions/ interpretation of said scripture.

So YOU are also worshipping a man?
A man called Jesus?

I worship God....and no other, I am being conformed into Jesus image, as my spirit is Born Again, I represent Jesus....I was chosen and predestined to become a child of God...Born Again..

 

[RLT63]

Join in RLT.
You look like a good, strong guy!

I've already weighed in a good bit

 

[Lizbeth]

I know Jesus only by His Living testimony, not by reading scripture...

Sister, it's a principle in scripture to let everything be established on the strength of two or three witnesses.......we need to have the witness of the Holy Spirit, but we need the witness of God's Word as well. We are instructed in the bible to test everything, and test the spirits.

Our hearts know Jesus is the Lord when we are born again (and why else would we praise and thank Him and pray to Him)......but scripture also testifies as to Who Jesus is. Unfortunately the carnal mind so easily leads people astray - they easily "reason" themselves out of valid truths that are known by faith/spirit....and that is why the bible says the carnal mind is enmity with God in the bible. The natural mind of the natural man can't perceive the things of God...they are spiritually discerned, by faith.

 

[APAK]

Take it how you wish to take it APAK.
It's the truth.

You see Elon already has TESLA set up and going.
IF YOU want to join TESLA,,,you'll have to be abiding by the conditions and rules that are already
existing....you will NOT be able to establish your own.

That's if you want to be a part of TESLA.
Otherwise you could go and start your own car producting company.

GG, really, what is your personal take of being a Christian. You do have a person view of your relationship with Christ, right? What makes you personally a Christian, beside the denomination or building you worship at?

 

[Rich R]

Which kind of makes 1 Cor 8:6 irrelevant.
Maybe you could do better.

Now try this verse instead:
Titus 2:13
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Well if we made 1 Cor 8:6 relevant, then there is a big contradiction between it and Titus 2:13.

I'm not sure how 1 Cor 8:6 could be saying anything other than the only God is the Father. Is Jesus the Father? On the other hand, There is much debate on how the Greek of Titus 2:13 should be translated. Even Trinitarian scholars admit it doesn't have to be translated the way it is in most English Bibles. One such highly regarded Trinitarian Bible scholar is Henry Alferd.

Another verse that would contradict your understanding of Titus is:

John 14:28,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

​

One part of the Godhead is greater than another? I don't thing that aligns with trinity doctrine.

In any case, these verses must all agree one way or the other. We can't have contradictions or we have nothing.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've already weighed in a good bit

OK...you're off the hook!

 

[ProDeo]

Because my dear Ritajanice
SOME DOCTRINE IS WRONG.

And INCORRECT DOCTRINE should NEVER be accepted by orthodox Christians.

Go find out what that means and then come back and report.

JESUS IS GOD. It's no mystery dear Ritajanice.

And if you DO NOT BELIEVE that Jesus is God,,,
you are not ALLOWED to define yourself as Chrisian.

A CHRISTian MUST believe that Jesus is God.

Now...you could go join some sect or other...there are a few out there...
but you must LEAVE THE CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS, because to be a part of THEM,,,
you MUST BE CHRISTIAN.

Is that clear to everyone?

Personally after reading and participating in this massive thread I now prefer to say that Jesus is God the Son instead of Jesus is God. While both are true since God the Father and God the Son are ONE, the phrase Jesus is God might give the reader the wrong impression that Jesus is God the Father.

YMMV.

 

[Ritajanice]

There is nowhere in scripture that says “ God the Son”....I most definitely agree that they are one in Spirit, as in, Jesus was in Perfect harmony with Gods Spirit....maybe another way of putting it, Jesus was in one accord with his Father’s Spirit..

Acts.2. [1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Where does Jesus say he is one with God?
John 17:20-23And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

I also see like Jesus...as Born Again we too are one in Christ.

Gal.3 Verses 28 to 29[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[ProDeo]

You want scripture re believing that Jesus is God?

John 8:58
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

John 10:30
30"I and the Father are one.”

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

WHO IS THE WORD? FIND OUT BECAUSE IN JOHN 1:14 IT BECOMES FLESH.

John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Colossians 2:9
29For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Hebrews 1:3
3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 5:18
18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Titus 2:13
13Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Amen.

I say AMEN.

And maybe, in the meantime, you could remove the word CHRISTIAN from under your avatar?

Isn't that a bridge too far?

I remember my days I had to deal with the phrase "Jesus is God"

Give RJ some slack, she is most open minded person I met on the forum.

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.


In the context of Proverbs 18:15, we see a clear call to be seekers of knowledge. This isn't just any knowledge, but the knowledge that comes from God. An open mind is like fertile soil, ready to receive the seeds of divine wisdom that God sows.

 

[ProDeo]

There is nowhere in scripture that says “ God the Son”....

I am the son of my father, the natural way, not divine.

Jesus is the Son of God, the supernatural way, how can He be not divine?

 

[Rich R]

Personally after reading and participating in this massive thread I now prefer to say that Jesus is God the Son instead of Jesus is God. While both are true since God the Father and God the Son are ONE, the phrase Jesus is God might give the reader the wrong impression that Jesus is God the Father.

YMMV.

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

​

John 17:22,

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

​

Jesus certainly wasn't praying that we would all be God. I'm thinking that one thing being "one with" another doesn't mean that the two things are the same thing. We commonly use a phrase like, "the crowd acted as one." I think we understand it to simply mean many people shared the same goal.

Then there is the issue that neither the words "God the Son" or "Jesus is God" are in the actual scriptures. On the other hand, there are at least 7 verses that clearly say Jesus was a man:

Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, 1 Tim 2:5, John 4:29, John 8:40, 1 Cor 15:21.​

Then there are at least a couple of verses that specifically say God is not a man:

Hos 11:9 & Num 23:19​

​

So given that Jesus is a man and God is not a man, how could Jesus possibly be God?

​

Every day more Christians are abandoning tradition and accepting the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures as their source of truth. More and more are believing the simple declaration in John's gospel,

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

​

John wrote that we might believe that Jesus is the anointed one, that he is the son of God. That is a far cry from saying he is God the son.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sister, it's a principle in scripture to let everything be established on the strength of two or three witnesses.......we need to have the witness of the Holy Spirit, but we need the witness of God's Word as well. We are instructed in the bible to test everything, and test the spirits.

We are Born Of The Spirit that comes by Living supernatural divine heart revelation....the Bible confirms this...the Bible is not Gods Living testimony.and no, I don’t need two or 3 witnesses as in humans...to tell me my spirit is Born Again, that can only come by Gods Living testimony....who testifies with my spirit all day every day that I am Gods child.....no one could possibly know who is Born Again...just because they don’t understand the Bible as some others do....does not mean they are not Born Again.....we have different levels of faith also.....a Born Again is also a partaker Of the divine nature, we also have a new heart and spirit within.....hence being Born Again/ regenerated/ ....our spirit is in Christ Spirit.....we are under the leadership and authority of the Holy Spirit.....we no longer belong to the world, we belong to the Spirit Of God we are his spirit children..

Our hearts know Jesus is the Lord when we are born again

By whose testimony?.....reading that your spirit is Born Again...does not make it so,as I’ve already explained as well as the word explains how we become Born Again....and it’s not by reading words and believing them....

(and why else would we praise and thank Him and pray to Him).

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...that’s when we know of Jesus and God in our heart/ spirit....the Living Spirit testifies Of God’s truth...not the Bible...the Bible confirms that we are Born Again by supernatural divine heart revelation....” Spirit gives birth to spirit “ pretty obvious that comes by supernatural divine heart revelation.

.....but scripture also testifies as to Who Jesus is. Unfortunately the carnal mind so easily leads people astray - they easily "reason" themselves out of valid truths that are known by faith/spirit....and that is why the bible says the carnal mind is enmity with God in the bible. The natural mind of the natural man can't perceive the things of God...they are spiritually discerned, by faith.

Scripture does confirm the testimony of the Living Holy Spirit....we are Born Of The Living Holy Spirit.....we are not Born Again by the Bible...

Flesh gives birth to flesh = a human birth..

Spirit gives birth to spirit = a Living supernatural rebirth, that comes by Gods Living Holy Spirit, he is Gods Living testimony....

 

[Ritajanice]

I am the son of my father, the natural way, not divine.

Jesus is the Son of God, the supernatural way, how can He be not divine?

I didn’t say he wasn’t divine.....you will see that in my posts .

He had to be divine in part, as he was the Son Of God....that goes without saying...he just wasn’t fully God, so far that is my belief.

 

[Rich R]

I didn’t say he wasn’t divine.....you will see that in my posts .

He had to be divine in part, as he was the Son Of God....that goes without saying...he just wasn’t fully God, so far that is my belief.

Very good point. There is an interesting verse in one of Peter's epistles:

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

​

Christians are also partakers of the divine nature. Having a divine nature must mean something other than being God. I'd sure never claim that it made me God!

 

[Ritajanice]

Very good point. There is an interesting verse in one of Peter's epistles:

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

​

Christians are also partakers of the divine nature. Having a divine nature must mean something other than being God. I'd sure never claim that it made me God!

Yes, a Born Again is 100% a partaker Of the divine nature, they would have to be as....Spirit gives birth to spirit...we are then permanently indwelled by the Living Holy Spirit.

Our spirit was birthed supernaturally by the Living Spirit Of God, just as Gods word confirms...

Also yes @Rich R .....being a partaker Of the divine nature does not make us God....100% agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL.ive already given you my Living testimony....?

Every testimony is nice...we all have one.
Problem is, it's great for edification...
but worthless for doctrine.

I wonder if I can change it to Born Again...I have messaged Angelina and asked if she can change it to Born Again @GodsGrace ....if not ,then it will remain Christian....I am a Born Again Christ follower.

I'd have to agree with @Angelina.
Born Again is NOT a denomination.
It's a state of being....with God.

You can say you're a born again follower of Christ..it's OK.
Some good portion of the Flower Children back in the 60's were following Christ.
Unfortunately, this is not what defines you as Christian.

Wether I’m Born Again you couldn’t possibly know....you couldn’t see the Holy Spirit giving birth to my spirit...Spirit gives birth to spirit....that comes by = supernatural Living divine heart revelation.

Of course....this is exactly what I stated to you...you're just stating it back.

God never said his Son was him...

So all those verses were not enough for you?
So what we have here is this:

Matthew 15:14
14They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”

One must have the Living testimony....best not go there.

No RJ.,.let's go there.

You were replying to this statement of mine - which I consider to be very important:

And isn't THIS the entire problem?
Why are our understandings so far apart Ritajanice?
This must surely mean that
ONE IS RIGHT
and
ONE IS WRONG.

So basically what you're saying is that a person could believe whatever he wants to believe.
IOW,,,if you have this living testimony you speak of...then everything you believe is correct.
But, other born again Christians that don't believe as YOU do apparently don't have this living testimony,
so THEY are wrong.

So HOW LONG do you think Christianity will last under those conditions?

And, as I've been asking for months now...
HOW can we know THE TRUTH?

Surely there must be a way...
other than the personal belief of someone.

None of what you have posted says that Jesus was God.

And herein lies the problem.
Maybe before stating doctrine you could try to UNDERSTAND the written Word of God?
IOW,,,How come the Jews believed the verses I posted...
FOR WHICH JESUS DIED,,,
but YOU do not?

Ponder it while you're busy being a living testimony.

Here, as in Matthew 12:18, Jesus is the servant of God. Matthew tells us that Jesus was the same servant of God spoken of in Isaiah 42:1. So, according to Matthew and Peter, Jesus is not God, but God's servant. The Old Testament repeatedly says that God is alone (e.g. Isaiah 45:5).

Of course God is only ONE.
WHO is saying otherwise?

This comes from not understanding what Christianity teaches...
The Trinity.

How could we resolve the OT with the NT?
Does God change?
I thought He remained the same.

Could all those verses I posted BE WRONG!


That would be very serious.

Jesus was one with God in Spirit, in perfect harmony with his “ Father God”...” SPIRIT “

Could you give me that verse?
Jesus said He and the Father are ONE.

You say you're born again in spirit...
are YOU and the Father One?

You have come to your own understanding , that the scripture that you have posted is saying that Jesus was fully God.....my understanding of the scripture that you posted, is saying nothing of the sort..imo...

Right...in YOUR opinion.

So how do we find out the truth?
And I mean REALLY....

I don’t need to find out what it means to be defined as Christian.

Apparently...but it says this under your avatar.

I go by the word of God who defines me as his spirit child,/ Born Again/ regenerated/ Spirit gives birth to spirit.....all according to his Living testimony.

This living testimony is a wonderful thing to behold.

BUT
You are NOT going by the word of God because you don't believe Jesus is God and all the writers believe He is and stated so and I gave you many verses.

I will if I can...as my spirit has been birthed into the Spirit of Christ...I’m not under any authority by you to change my avatar...if Angelina can change it so be it, if not it will remain as Christian...as I’m a Born Again Christ follower....

RJ...you're not under any authority PERIOD.
But you're supposed to be under the authority of God.
Now Angelina will not be changing your name to BORN AGAIN.
But you might want to suggest OTHER FAITH.

What you write are the same as what I write, apart from God’s word, you write your own opinions/ interpretation of said scripture.

Sorry, but I don't write my opinions.
You keep saying this as if we're all supposed to have our own opinion.
Do YOU have your own opinion?
HOW can you know it's correct?

I worship God....and no other, I am being conformed into Jesus image, as my spirit is Born Again, I represent Jesus....I was chosen and predestined to become a child of God...Born Again..

There you go.
Now you believe in predestination.
Now you're into heresy.
BTW, find out what heresy means before you start complaining.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not sure how 1 Cor 8:6 could be saying anything other than the only God is the Father. Is Jesus the Father? On the other hand, There is much debate on how the Greek of Titus 2:13 should be translated. Even Trinitarian scholars admit it doesn't have to be translated the way it is in most English Bibles.

Another example of trinitarians doctrinally investing in vague verses while dismissing explicit verses, like 1 COR 8:6.

 

[GodsGrace]

Very good point. There is an interesting verse in one of Peter's epistles:

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

​

Christians are also partakers of the divine nature. Having a divine nature must mean something other than being God. I'd sure never claim that it made me God!

Oops. This just came up.

So, IOW, WE are just like Jesus?

It's getting better and better.

PARTAKERS...is this what Paul said about Jesus?:

Colossians 2:9
9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

and the writer of Hebrews states:

Hebrews 1:3
3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


Rich, you know someone that is upholding the universe?

 

[Wrangler]

What makes you think Christians believe in more than one God?

Because "tri" does not mean one.