Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[David in NJ]

Willful ignorance. If any man says these words it makes them God or just one particular man?

Scripture is explicit who God is and it is not Jesus. Trinitarians reject this and invent all kinds of rationalizations to back door their dogma into text that does no teach it. There is one God, the Father.

There are THREE who are ECHAD = ONE

One SPIRIT, aka the Holy Sprit, One God and FATHER, One LORD Jesus Christ = Ephesians 4:4 & John 14:15-17 & Genesis

ATTENTION Moderators and all on here:

i will give to @Wrangler, $500.00 if he can prove that which is contained in this post as false by providing definitive proof/evidence that
Elohim is not THREE

i will give another $500.00 to @Wrangler if he can prove that the Word who was in the Beginning with God was "a god"

Truth Clarification: Elohim(Plural)/God said in Deut 5:6-7 , Exodus 34:14, and Isaiah 45:21

I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

For you must not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

 

[Taken]

Scripture is explicit who God is and it is not Jesus. There is one God, the Father.

There are many “gods”…
But ONLY ONE Supreme Creator AND Maker.

Do you Believe…
God named His WORD…Jesus?

Do you Believe…
God titled His POWER….Christ?

Do you Believe…
God titled His WISDOM…Christ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Pathological refusal to answer questions.

False Alternative. Jesus is precisely what the Gospels proclaim, nothing more and nothing less; God’s Anointed (solution to the problem of reconciliation due to sin, requiring a sacrifice to the death).

It's not so because you say so Wrangler.

Here are two other points you may wish to address....OR NOT,,,since you haven't addressed any yet....

1. God stated in the OT that HE HIMSELF would have to guide and save His flock.

Zephania 3:17
17The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save;

Isaiah 12:2
2“Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the Lord God is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation.”

Psalm 68:20
20Our God is a God of salvation, and to God, the Lord, belong deliverances from death.

Psalm 23:1
1The Lord is my shepherd;

Isaiah 40:11
11He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom,


GOD saves His people.
Jesus saves His people because Jesus is God because God came to earth to save us.
John 1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, THE WORD WAS GOD.

Jesus is the Word/Logos of God.

God was seen in the OT. How is this possible if God is invisible?


2. The other point is that ONLY GOD could save after the fall of Adam and Eve.
NO MAN could have saved humanity since it was man that caused humanity to fall and egregiously insulted/harmed God.

 

[Wrangler]

It's not so because you say so Wrangler.

No. It’s because the logical fallacy known as False Alternative was invoked RATHER THAN answer the 3 questions I asked to make sure you understood my answer to your question.

No intellectual integrity to ask but not answer questions.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. It’s because the logical fallacy known as False Alternative was invoked RATHER THAN answer the 3 questions I asked to make sure you understood my answer to your question.

No intellectual integrity to ask but not answer questions.

Yes. Typical.
You DEMAND from others what you yourself do not do.

I answered your questions....you just don't like the answer.

NOW
Are YOU going to reply to any of my posts?
Of course not.

Your belief is that IF YOU SAY SO....then it must surely be.

Here's your problem:

Christianity was begun 2 thousand years ago.
It was already established when YOU were born.
When you decided to become Christian, the DEFINITION of Christian was already established.
It is YOU that believes something different than Christians.

Even the reformers believed Jesus is God.
You belong to a gnostic group called Ariunism.
They follow a man called Arius.
He believed Jesus was just a man.
He was not accepted by the established church.
Just as YOUR views are not accepted by the established church.

Maybe you want to be a Witness,
or Maybe you want to be Jewish.
But you are DEFINETLY NOT Christian.

And, if you studied church history instead of the names of fallacies,
you'd know HOW to fix this dilemma you're in.

 

[Wrangler]

I answered your questions

Oh? What were these 3 answers again?

I'll give you a chance to answer my 3 questions to verify we have the correct context understood:

1. Rev 1:1 proves the resurrected Jesus in heaven is STILL not God, for God - in his unitarian nature - gave Jesus the revelation, correct?
2. Can you recognize Isaiah 44:6 is saying YHWH alone is God? (Not Jesus is God)
3. Notice the difference with Rev 1:17-18, Jesus is not claiming to be God like YHWH does in Is 44:6?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh? What were these 3 answers again?

 

[Pierac]

Good Morning @HC

Three Persons of the Godhead are made very clear in the NT Scriptures = Ephesians 4:4
there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Apostles KNOW that the Word that was God is the LORD from the OT Scriptures

I'm sorry but you just pointed out only two....

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Baptism is not a person of the Godhead!!!

Lets's take a look at Baptism!!!

Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.

Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).

This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:

"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."

Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up another misunderstood verse.

Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.

Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).

Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:

"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."

With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?

Bend over and grab your ankles... Little children!!!

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Act 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.


Now you have been Baptized with the truth....

 

[David in NJ]

I'm sorry but you just pointed out only two....

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Baptism is not a person of the Godhead!!!

Lets's take a look at Baptism!!!

Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.

Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).

This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:

"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."

Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up another misunderstood verse.

Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.

Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).

Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:

"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."

With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?

Bend over and grab your ankles... Little children!!!

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Act 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.


Now you have been Baptized with the truth....

Elohim FATHER Elohim WORD/SON Elohim HOLY SPRIRIT

One Spirit , One God and FATHER of One LORD Jesus Christ

Thus why the Angels Praise is 3 times = HOLY , HOLY , HOLY = LORD - GOD - ALMIGHTY

 

[Pierac]

Elohim FATHER Elohim WORD/SON Elohim HOLY SPRIRIT

One Spirit , One God and FATHER of One LORD Jesus Christ

Thus why the Angels Praise is 3 times = HOLY , HOLY , HOLY = LORD - GOD - ALMIGHTY

How many Gods do you have? Jesus has a God...

Even the risen Jesus has a GOD!!!
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Rev 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Oh... My God.... Jesus has a GOD!!!!

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

How was Jesus raised from the dead???

Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Yep.... one God and one servant that needed to be raised from the dead... because GOD can not die!!!


How do you not know these things?

 

[TheHC]

Are you aware how much of this post contradicts the Biblical context?

You said:
“Your argument implies that Paul deliberately avoided saying Jesus is God, but this overlooks both the immediate context and the broader Pauline corpus.”

No, Paul’s context agrees with it…

• 1 Corinthians 11:3,”….in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”

The Apostle Paul constantly taught and referred to Jesus as God's Son and God as his Father.
Acts 9:20; Romans 8:3, 32; 15:6; Gal 4:4; Ephesians 1:3, 1:17; Col 1:3; 1 Cor 3:23; 8:6; 15:27-28; 15:47; 2 Cor 1:3; 11:31; Hebrews 1:2; 4:14.

(All of these were written after Jesus had returned to the heavens.)

Really , do you think God can have a Father?

On top of this, Paul called Jesus “the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4), as you pointed out. If Paul wanted to encourage the worship of Jesus, Paul wouldn’t have described him as “the image of God”! Using images in worship were anathema to Christians and Jews! Worshiping an image would have been repugnant to both groups!

In fact, why would Paul even add the Greek word for “image”, εἰκὼν (eikōn), if Jesus was God? If that was the case, then Paul should’ve just said, “…. that the glorious, good news about the Christ, who is God, might not shine through.”
Paul said no such thing!

And I feel it important to point out that, divine does not mean being God; as per the definition, it means “of God” or “from God.”
So angels are divine; this earth is divine… They are from God. The same is true with Jesus.

And the translation you used, where “harpagmon” is translated as “exploited”, is problematic at the very least. It doesn’t accurately convey the meaning of the word.

The Greek word morphē does not simply mean "shape" or "form" as understood in purely physical terms.

Of course it doesn’t, not in this context. But we’re not discussing “physical form”. It’s spirit form we’re talking about.

Hope you have a good day.


(My apologies for not replying to you sooner… I have many responsibilities which take precedence.)

 

[Wrangler]

How many Gods do you have? Jesus has a God...

My God is the God that has no other God's; my God is Jesus' God, the Father and Creator of us all.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm sorry but you just pointed out only two....

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Baptism is not a person of the Godhead!!!

Math is not trinitarian's strong suit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry but you just pointed out only two....

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Baptism is not a person of the Godhead!!!

Lets's take a look at Baptism!!!

Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.

Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).

This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:

"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."

Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up another misunderstood verse.

Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.

Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).

Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:

"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."

With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?

Bend over and grab your ankles... Little children!!!

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Act 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.


Now you have been Baptized with the truth....

Wonderfully composed posts....
nice combination of text sizing and coloring...very interesting I'm sure.

Just want to ask:
HOW do YOU know HOW Christians were baptized in the early church?

 

[Ritajanice]

If the Spirit testifies Of The Father and Jesus, all 3 are 100% connected in Spirit..

Jesus testified of God , preached all that the Father told him to preach as God spoke through Jesus...God also speaks through his Living testimony the Holy Spirit.....

Jesus, / Holy Spirit are 100% in harmony with the Spirit Of God...making them connected in Spirit with God...all 3 are most definitely joined in Spirit, how can they not be?

 

[Wrangler]

If the Spirit testifies Of The Father and Jesus, all 3 are 100% connected in Spirit..

God's Spirit is not a person. Still, his spirit connects us all, not just God and his son.

 

[Ritajanice]

God's Spirit is not a person. Still, his spirit connects us all, not just God and his son.

Who said Gods Spirit was a person?

Jesus was God’s Son in Spirit?...Jesus came from the Spirit Of God...therefore joined in Spirit...Mary became pregnant by the Spirit?

 

[Ritajanice]

his spirit connects us all

His Spirit connects us all?

We were not conceived like Jesus was?

We are spiritually reborn?

How would I know that I have been spiritually reborn @Wrangler ?

Spirit gives birth to spirit?

Mary became pregnant by the Spirit that makes Jesus partly divine...?

Not saying he was God...he was God’s Spirit Son?...as Mary became pregnant by the Spirit?

That makes Jesus partly divine..not fully human.

 

[APAK]

Wonderfully composed posts....
nice combination of text sizing and coloring...very interesting I'm sure.

Just want to ask:
HOW do YOU know HOW Christians were baptized in the early church?

GG: I think the Book of Acts is sufficient to know how they were immersed completely underwater. Do you know of another ledger or account of what words were used for the immersion of people with water. And they surely did not do any sprinkling on the head back then and made a frontal knife's edge with a hand and projected it out: in a north, south west and east motion. That occurred many centuries later when the forgery text of three names was inserted into Matthew.

 

[David in NJ]

Are you aware how much of this post contradicts the Biblical context?

You said:
“Your argument implies that Paul deliberately avoided saying Jesus is God, but this overlooks both the immediate context and the broader Pauline corpus.”

No, Paul’s context agrees with it…

• 1 Corinthians 11:3,”….in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”

The Apostle Paul constantly taught and referred to Jesus as God's Son and God as his Father.
Acts 9:20; Romans 8:3, 32; 15:6; Gal 4:4; Ephesians 1:3, 1:17; Col 1:3; 1 Cor 3:23; 8:6; 15:27-28; 15:47; 2 Cor 1:3; 11:31; Hebrews 1:2; 4:14.

(All of these were written after Jesus had returned to the heavens.)

Really , do you think God can have a Father?

On top of this, Paul called Jesus “the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4), as you pointed out. If Paul wanted to encourage the worship of Jesus, Paul wouldn’t have described him as “the image of God”! Using images in worship were anathema to Christians and Jews! Worshiping an image would have been repugnant to both groups!

In fact, why would Paul even add the Greek word for “image”, εἰκὼν (eikōn), if Jesus was God? If that was the case, then Paul should’ve just said, “…. that the glorious, good news about the Christ, who is God, might not shine through.”
Paul said no such thing!

And I feel it important to point out that, divine does not mean being God; as per the definition, it means “of God” or “from God.”
So angels are divine; this earth is divine… They are from God. The same is true with Jesus.

And the translation you used, where “harpagmon” is translated as “exploited”, is problematic at the very least. It doesn’t accurately convey the meaning of the word.



Of course it doesn’t, not in this context. But we’re not discussing “physical form”. It’s spirit form we’re talking about.

Hope you have a good day.


(My apologies for not replying to you sooner… I have many responsibilities which take precedence.)

The Apostle Paul constantly taught and referred to Jesus as God's Son and God as his Father.
Acts 9:20; Romans 8:3, 32; 15:6; Gal 4:4; Ephesians 1:3, 1:17; Col 1:3; 1 Cor 3:23; 8:6; 15:27-28; 15:47; 2 Cor 1:3; 11:31; Hebrews 1:2; 4:14.

Absolutely TRUE = but do you know WHY???

Really , do you think God can have a Father?

YES = but do you know WHY???

In fact, why would Paul even add the Greek word for “image”, εἰκὼν (eikōn), if Jesus was God?

Absolutely True but do you know WHY???